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I read the news today (oh boy) - Current world events
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15 February 2018
1.26pm
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Ron Nasty
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By presenting the comments I made out of the order I made them in, @Zig, you have misrepresented what I said, in my opinion.

I made perfectly clear in my first comment on the shooting exactly who my criticisms about these continued school shootings were aimed at:

The ugly part of the American Dream that they refuse to deal with because of vested interests and a gun lobby that buys political influence rears it head again. It is sad that so many Americans want to cling on to their guns while they throw their hands up in mock horror at the cost in lives that the lack of gun control inevitably lead to.

My second comment

It says something about the state and indifference of the US that only when the fatalities are high do they make the headlines beyond a blink.

is simply a restating of the first point without feeling the need to elaborate because I had already done that.

By reversing them, you made it appear that I was criticising every American, and only afterwards gave a nod to the political Groundhog Day that your country has been living with on gun control for decades.

Out of all of our wonderful American friends here on the forum, there is only one, maybe two, who I think would argue that sensible gun control laws are an infringement of their 2nd Amendment Rights. I also know that, as here, the majority of Americans in the real world are in favour of stricter gun laws - including a majority of ordinary NRA members, ironically. I know full well that the majority of Americans think the 2nd Amendment argument is total BS, and know that the Founding Fathers were thinking about muskets, and couldn't possibly imagine someone running around with a (legally bought) AR-15 semi-automatic.

However, it cannot be ignored that, while the majority of American voters want stronger gun laws, they also vote for politicians who are upfront about having no intention of doing anything about it, apart from weakening the already lax laws that are in place.

One of Trump's first actions was to reverse Obama's Executive Order that was aimed at making it more difficult for those with mental health issues to get a gun, and then has the temerity to say there's a problem with those who have mental health issues getting guns. Because of you, you fucker!

Congress, just last week, passed a law saying that if you had a permit to carry a concealed weapon in a State that allows the carrying of a concealed weapon, that those permits would apply in States that ban the carrying of concealed weapons. Arseholes!

Until, when you select your candidates, especially Republicans, you start making a refusal to deal with gun control a negative instead of a positive, you are condemned to the repeat the same cycle.

I kicked no-one when they were down, merely expressed - as I have done too many times before - my horror at your country finding itself facing the same situation as it has done so many times before, knowing that it appals as many Americans as it does those of us who look in at your country and shake their heads while shedding a tear.

You, and all of our American Forumpudlians, every American, deserve so much more from your political Establishment on this issue than you are being offered.

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15 February 2018
2.51pm
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Zig
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Regardless of which order your comments were presented, I responded to what was typed...again...and again...and again. When crappy stuff like this happens I can count on the fact that there will be those who are only too quick to pounce and point out what we already know. Fucking geniuses. This morning, after reading the written diarrhea I endured in this God forsaken thread (ironically enough, started by SatanHimself), I had had my fill. Maybe I overreacted - maybe not. You can spin this any way you want. The bottom line is I don't need someone who lives an ocean away telling me what my country's faults are. I get it, move on. Tend to your own.

I started participating in this Forum years ago because it used to be fun. Everyone needs a place (where I can go, when I feel low) to find respite from the crap that goes on in real life. Threads like this suck the very life out of me and make me regret that I logged on. So much for fun. This is a Beatles website for Christ's sake. Why in Hell do we have to rehash bad news?

Color me disgusted.

To the fountain of perpetual mirth, let it roll for all its worth. And all the children boogie.

15 February 2018
2.55pm
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sir walter raleigh
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I spent a good part of one day in an Austrian gun and outdoors shop, with one of the employees explaining the gun laws to me. It was about 3 or 4 years ago, but it was my first realization about gun ownership in other countries. I had never really paid attention to the emphasis on responsible gun laws, vs. "guns are legal" vs. "guns are illegal." 

I don't think that common ground is impossible for the American Congress, especially once the generations who live and grow up during this violence begin to make a mark on Politics. The reason that we go nowhere, and I have witnessed this argument hundreds of times being from the South: "you just can't touch the second amendment." which I think is absurd. Just because everybody agrees on the first amendment does not mean that the second is equally valid.

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15 February 2018
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Ron Nasty
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There is nothing that forces you to read this thread, @Zig. You are perfectly free to ignore the existence of this thread should you wish to. You could even put an argument to Joe to have this thread locked, should you wish (though I'm sure that would be resisted).

Have you never commented on events that happen outside of the US? I know for a fact you have, so why is it wrong for those outside of the US to comment on events that happen there.

You're someone I respect a lot, which is why I took the time to explain my thoughts at length, and so it saddens me you feel only Americans should comment on events that take place in your country.

Our opinions on gun control are pretty similar, so far as I can see, so it disappoints that you think I should keep my mouth shut about America in a thread about world events.

Myself, I like open discussion, and wouldn't exclude the opinion of anyone because they don't live in the country where an event took place.

Myself, I still find this forum lots of fun, and the different voices and views of our wonderful international Forumpudlians educational and enlightening. Yes, sometimes we discuss serious issues, but it is not like they dominate, or that anyone forgets this is a primarily a Beatles forum.

Love & Peace

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15 February 2018
3.38pm
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Ron Nasty
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@sir walter raleigh said
I don't think that common ground is impossible for the American Congress, especially once the generations who live and grow up during this violence begin to make a mark on Politics.  

That has to be the hope that is clung to, that those to come will have better sense than those who have, and who currently, block progress. Looking at the many fine young Americans on this forum, they make me optimistic about the future...

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15 February 2018
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QuarryMan
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^^ To be fair, this is a current affairs thread.

I got myself really angry this evening reading through some of the things the American right wing had said in response to that horrific shooting. "It's a mental health thing not a gun thing" angered me a lot, but the real worst was "stop politicising these deaths". What are we supposed to do? Sit still and keep our heads down whilst innocent children are murdered by other teenagers? To think that so much pain and anguish is caused by the simple greed these fat cat politicians who are sponsored by the NRA makes me despair for the fate of America.

Americans, my simple advice is to stop voting for politicians on the payroll of the NRA and you will hopefully see some progress on this issue.

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15 February 2018
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I completely agree with these sentiments. 

Ron Nasty said
There is nothing that forces you to read this thread, @Zig. You are perfectly free to ignore the existence of this thread should you wish to. You could even put an argument to Joe to have this thread locked, should you wish (though I'm sure that would be resisted).

Have you never commented on events that happen outside of the US? I know for a fact you have, so why is it wrong for those outside of the US to comment on events that happen there.

You're someone I respect a lot, which is why I took the time to explain my thoughts at length, and so it saddens me you feel only Americans should comment on events that take place in your country.

Our opinions on gun control are pretty similar, so far as I can see, so it disappoints that you think I should keep my mouth shut about America in a thread about world events.

Myself, I like open discussion, and wouldn't exclude the opinion of anyone because they don't live in the country where an event took place.

Myself, I still find this forum lots of fun, and the different voices and views of our wonderful international Forumpudlians educational and enlightening. Yes, sometimes we discuss serious issues, but it is not like they dominate, or that anyone forgets this is a primarily a Beatles forum.

Love & Peace  

Half of what I say is meaningless

15 February 2018
5.33pm
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Little Piggy Dragonguy
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I think it's unfortunate how people use these tragedies to further push their political agenda. This isn't about those people or their opinions. The victims should be mourned as human beings, and not just have their death used so somebody can prove that they are right. I see very few people talking about the tragedy of these innocuous people losing their lives. Instead, all I have been seeing and hearing is people arguing about politics and making this situation about themselves.

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15 February 2018
7.56pm
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sir walter raleigh
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Little Piggy Dragonguy said
I think it's unfortunate how people use these tragedies to further push their political agenda. This isn't about those people or their opinions. The victims should be mourned as human beings, and not just have their death used so somebody can prove that they are right. I see very few people talking about the tragedy of these innocuous people losing their lives. Instead, all I have been seeing and hearing is people arguing about politics and making this situation about themselves.  

The selfish thing is to do and say nothing about bringing about change to solve the problem. Of course each and every life lost is a tragedy, and continuing a gun laws debate on BeatlesBible is not the way to solve the problem, but THIS IS A POLITICAL ISSUE. If politics are left out them how is this fixed?

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15 February 2018
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I agree with Ron Nasty about not reading threads that you know you don't like. I don't go into the listening thread to complain about it since I know it's not for me.

We all got are different view of fun, for me this and other threads that provide engaging discussion and debate are what I find fun.

And people should indeed be able to bring up political issues during tragedies. Best time to go and fix them. If not, then when should these issues be discussed @Little Piggy Dragonguy?

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16 February 2018
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Zig
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There is nothing that forces you to read this thread

On a larger scale, there is nothing that forces me to read anything.

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16 February 2018
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sir walter raleigh said
{snip}

I don't think that common ground is impossible for the American Congress, especially once the generations who live and grow up during this violence begin to make a mark on Politics. The reason that we go nowhere, and I have witnessed this argument hundreds of times being from the South: "you just can't touch the second amendment." which I think is absurd. Just because everybody agrees on the first amendment does not mean that the second is equally valid.  

I thought about your comment while reading this piece written by a student at the Parkland school https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/02/15/opinions/florida-shooting-no-more-opinion-kasky/index.html

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16 February 2018
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QuarryMan said 

Americans, my simple advice is to stop voting for politicians on the payroll of the NRA and you will hopefully see some progress on this issue.  

Unfortunately, an estimated 2.9 million more Americans voted for a Democratic President but were forced to usher in a Republican one instead...  people who don't vote are urged to do so because "every vote matters", but it's pretty obvious that this isn't true...  I feel that the American people did speak during the last election but weren't heard...  add in the allegations of Russian interference and it's no small wonder that people just don't bother anymore...  God Bless America...:-)     

16 February 2018
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So might as well read the stuff you want to.

https://youtu.be/52nwiTs7bk8

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16 February 2018
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Little Piggy Dragonguy said
I think it's unfortunate how people use these tragedies to further push their political agenda. This isn't about those people or their opinions. The victims should be mourned as human beings, and not just have their death used so somebody can prove that they are right. I see very few people talking about the tragedy of these innocuous people losing their lives. Instead, all I have been seeing and hearing is people arguing about politics and making this situation about themselves.  

If you think the deaths are politicised "so somebody can prove that they are right"... 

THE DEATHS ARE POLITICAL ANYWAY.

THESE DEATHS COULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED WITH SENSIBLE GUN LAWS.

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH PUSHING AN AGENDA IF THE AGENDA IS SAVING INNOCENT LIVES.

We are all mourning the lives lost, it's just that we don't want to have to do so again, and again, as the death toll mounts. 

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16 February 2018
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Starr Shine? said
I agree with Ron Nasty about not reading threads that you know you don't like. I don't go into the listening thread to complain about it since I know it's not for me.

We all got are different view of fun, for me this and other threads that provide engaging discussion and debate are what I find fun.

And people should indeed be able to bring up political issues during tragedies. Best time to go and fix them. If not, then when should these issues be discussed @Little Piggy Dragonguy?  

...you avoid going into "the listening thread" to complain about it since you know you don't like it... but you complain about that thread copious amounts of times in a multitude of other threads on the forum... 

 

Billy Rhythm said

QuarryMan said 

Americans, my simple advice is to stop voting for politicians on the payroll of the NRA and you will hopefully see some progress on this issue.  

Unfortunately, an estimated 2.9 million more Americans voted for a Democratic President but were forced to usher in a Republican one instead...  people who don't vote are urged to do so because "every vote matters", but it's pretty obvious that this isn't true...  I feel that the American people did speak during the last election but weren't heard...  add in the allegations of Russian interference and it's no small wonder that people just don't bother anymore...  God Bless America...:-)       

Funny you feel the American people did speak during the last election but weren't heard. There are tons of other people who also believed that the American people spoke with the last election and were heard by Trump winning over multiple states that haven't been republican in decades. America is a big country with all different cultures and ways of life. The electoral college is in place to give those areas with less population a bigger voice. It's not about having the most votes, it's about having the biggest spread of support. 

 

QuarryMan said

If you think the deaths are politicised "so somebody can prove that they are right"... 

THE DEATHS ARE POLITICAL ANYWAY.
THESE DEATHS COULD HAVE BEEN PREVENTED WITH SENSIBLE GUN LAWS.

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH PUSHING AN AGENDA IF THE AGENDA IS SAVING INNOCENT LIVES.

We are all mourning the lives lost, it's just that we don't want to have to do so again, and again, as the death toll mounts.   

They could have been prevented with sensible gun laws, but not with a better mental health system???? ?????? ?? ? ? ? ? ????? ? ? ? ????? ???? ??? 

I agree that the gun laws should be changed, but that's not what I was speaking on. I was speaking on those who appear to feed off of hearing about these attacks. It seems to me that some people like hearing about these school shootings because it gives them another reason to vomit their political ideology onto others. When my professor told my class about what had happened, the first questions that were asked were related to the race and gender of the offender. They weren't asking about such insignificant things because they were upset about the news. Those questions were being asked because those students wanted to know if they could use this to fuel some debate on race and gender. 

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16 February 2018
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Starr Shine? said
So might as well read the stuff you want to.  

how will you know you want to read something before you read it?

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16 February 2018
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Ron Nasty
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The amount of people suffering from mental illnesses is pretty similar across the G7 countries (even across the richer of the G20 countries), @Little Piggy Dragonguy. The amount of mass casualty shootings by individuals who have legally owned weapons, many of whom are mentally ill, is a plague unique to the USA because of its attitude towards guns, both in the culture it has built around them, and the lax legal framework which polices them.

Some might think that the easy legal availability of firearms (hell! you can buy AR-15 three years before you can buy a beer) has something to do with the difference.

And even if better mental health provision were the answer, that tax cut the President just gave himself and the Trump Organization, has to be cost neutral, which will mean a cut to federally-funded programs, including mental health treatment and support programs.

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16 February 2018
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Little Piggy Dragonguy said

how will you know you want to read something before you read it?  

First page/title

Also, again when is the time to discuss gun violence if not after a gun tragedy?

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17 February 2018
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Little Piggy Dragonguy said 

It's not about having the most votes, it's about having the biggest spread of support. 
 

No argument there...  and the current President exploited this brilliantly...  thankfully where I live, in Canada, having the most votes means something...

Ron Nasty said 
the Founding Fathers were thinking about muskets, and couldn't possibly imagine someone running around with a (legally bought) AR-15 semi-automatic

This pretty much sums it up...  Times have changed but the laws haven't...

 

There's no question that they need to start securing firearms and regulate their distribution, but the problems go much deeper than that...  Of course mental illness plays a role, but so does what "healthy" people disgest everyday on TV...  There's so many truly inspirational stories happening around us all of the time that largely go unreported while the media instead opts for promoting violence...  what's disturbing to me is that this appears to be what the general public wants...  and much of it begins where some of these horrors take place, schools...  think about all of the times in school where a physical altercation took place...  how many of those instances did peers intervene and put a stop to it?  I personally can't think of one...  no, what usually happens is a mob ensues rife with chants for blood...  where does this come from?

 

Guns are a means of escalation for those who thirst for more than what they've all ready been exposed to as children...  I'm pretty sure that I would've never went looking for acid had it not been for The Beatles...  sure, it maybe would've found me eventually, but I sought it out specifically because I wanted to know what 'Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds ' was all about...  my point is that, us Beatle People can relate to becoming quite obsessive about something that we're exposed to through television so think about what a lot of others view and may come to act out...  not saying that television is THE problem, but it's certainly an often overlooked factor in violent behaviour...  In fact, it's become more and more acceptable for children to view violence on TV so as they can become desensitized to it, because "that's the way the world works"...:-)

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