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I read the news today (oh boy) - Current world events
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15 August 2017
8.17pm
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Starr Shine?
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Hell, the civil war wasn't even started to end slavery but rather the union preventing the confederates from splitting from the union,

So that they could continue having slaves.

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15 August 2017
8.54pm
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Ron Nasty
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I'm sorry, @Dark Overlord, but you are just so wrong.

As I said previously, the only person to come out in support of Trump has been the former head of the KKK.

If you truly think that there is a moral equivalence between racists and bigots, and those that protest against such scum, you have a lot of growing up to do. The second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence states "All men are created equal". It took the US a Civil War and much more pain and blood to reach the inclusive, but still flawed, society you have today.

These people want to return to the days of lynchings and burning crosses. They are the shit on your shoes.

You demean yourself by supporting them, and Trump, on this issue.

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15 August 2017
9.25pm
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Starr Shine?
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If I said the sky is blue at noon time,

Dark Overlord would argue that it is actually bright orange.

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15 August 2017
9.45pm
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Dark Overlord
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First of all, there's a difference between a fact and an opinion Starr Shine?, if the sky is blue then it's blue, i'm not going to say that something is orange if i know for a fact that it's blue. I may wish the sky was orange but if it's blue then it's blue. I may have unpopular opinions that aren't politically correct but i'm not stupid and ignorant.

Since i got that off my chest in the nicest way possible, let's go onto Ron Nasty's statement.

Good point, you're smart enough where sometimes i take your word for things without looking into them so if you think it's wrong then it must be wrong but can we at least agree that the protest was protected by the 1st amendment before it got violent.

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15 August 2017
10.48pm
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Ron Nasty
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Yes and no, @Dark Overlord.

They weren't wanted in Charlottesville. They arrived marching like military units, with many of them carrying visible firearms, knowing they would be met with protests, looking like they were fully prepared for armed conflict.

Even the 1st amendment has its limitations, like you cannot run into a cinema and shout "Fire!", and I would argue that going into a community that doesn't want you there, with rifles slung over your shoulders just because you can, meets the same standard.

You do not turn up for a peaceful protest armed.

The President you choose to blindly support gets these incidents so wrong every time they occur. On this one, the excuse he used was that he doesn't rush to rash statements without knowing the full facts. LOL! This is the President who lives on Twitter, tells you not to believe in journalism that doesn't bow at his feet while wailing "We are not worthy!" This is the President who, just in June, decided to condemn as a terrorist attack in Manila (in the Philippines) when it turned out to be an attempted casino robbery, nothing to do with terrorism.

From the moment he declared he was running for President, "Mexico is sending us their rapists and murderers," has played on fear rather than facts.

This is the man who complained about manufacturing jobs going abroad, while ignoring the fact that most of his Trump tat was made abroad.

He talks of jobs going abroad while ignoring the fact that more American jobs have been lost to automation than companies moving their manufacturing abroad.

He is the ultimate snake oil salesman, and you're buying it.

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16 August 2017
12.14am
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The source i read didn't say that, it's a good thing we have you to clear things up and tell me that they were using firearms, therefore voiding it of being a peaceful protest. I wonder why these people brought firearms with them.

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16 August 2017
4.07am
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Celebrating that Swift won her sexual harassment case today. 

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16 August 2017
4.13am
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Dark Overlord said
The source i read didn't say that, it's a good thing we have you to clear things up and tell me that they were using firearms, therefore voiding it of being a peaceful protest. I wonder why these people brought firearms with them.  

Because they are fascist scum.

In regards to the anti-protesters, I have pretty mixed feelings about tearing down the Confederate statues. Of course they represent an unsavoury period in American history, but at the same time perceptions were very different back then. 

This raises a deeper question on whether it's ok to remove reminders of certain parts of history. 

Would be interested to hear your opinions a-hard-days-night-paul-10 

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16 August 2017
4.33am
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meanmistermustard
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Dark Overlord said
While i have a problem with the guy who rammed people with his car, i don't have a problem with protest itself. Now before you call me a racist or a bigot, hear me out.

These people were protesting because a statue of confederate general Robert E. Lee was being removed, which i would be pretty pissed about myself if i were from one of those states and they have the 1st amendment right to protest and hold signs, so i don't see anything with the people who peacefully protested the removal of the statue.

To be honest, after looking into it, i don't see a problem with Trump's claims. Only 1 of these people resorted to killing people, the rest of them were peacefully protesting and i think the anti-racists have to realize that just because 1 person takes something to an extreme doesn't mean that everybody at the protest wants to return to the days where blacks were treated like dirt. Hell, the civil war wasn't even started to end slavery but rather the union preventing the confederates from splitting from the union, hence the term civil war.

Maybe i missed something but from what I've read about the attacks, i don't have a problem with the protest itself although i think we can all agree that the guy in the car did something wrong and should go to jail for his crimes.  

Do you believe the garbage you write at times? They came to raise dissent and violence. Writing "the rest of them were peacefully protesting" is utter tripe destroyed by the footage available never mind after-reports. 

Dark Overlord said
The source i read didn't say that, it's a good thing we have you to clear things up and tell me that they were using firearms, therefore voiding it of being a peaceful protest. I wonder why these people brought firearms with them.  

Stop reading such biased sources therefore and use sources which are reporting the truth - widely available in this instance.

Trump defending the attacks and those behind them will only encourage those groups to continue such protests in greater numbers using greater levels of disruption and violence. Anyone agreeing with him is for whatever reason blinded and needs a reality check. It was as clear as anything to slate the actions of the KKK and the Neo-Nazis yet Trump failed, had to be forced to read a statement to readdress such a balls-up (which you could tell he didn't believe), and then ran to his own HQ to go back on said statement. Coming from the highest power in the US such actions should have Americans deeply concerned not agreeing with him.  

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16 August 2017
5.23am
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AppleScruffJunior
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This says it all

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16 August 2017
6.58am
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Starr Shine?
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But watch out folks, this could be a trend.

George Washington could be next.

Also, removing statues doesn't remove history.

https://youtu.be/52nwiTs7bk8

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16 August 2017
9.42am
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Ahhh Girl
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^Yep, we should tear down the Washington and Jefferson Memorials in Washington, DC. We should burn down the entire University of Virginia campus while we are at it. Who wants to use the bulldozer to level Mount Vernon and Monticello?

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16 August 2017
10.13am
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I think the problem is that the Confederate statues are directly symbolic of the civil war and the fight for continued slavery. Yes the early presidents like Washington and Jefferson used slaves etc, but practically everyone at their time was pro-slavery. 

It's no surprise that the far-right continue to admire the Confederacy. 

As i've said though, i'm pretty divided on whether the statues should be removed. I think history is something to be respected and learnt from. 

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16 August 2017
10.24am
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Ron Nasty
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Just silly, @Starr Shine?. While there may be much to be critical of Washington for, including the fact he was a slave owner, he was a man of his time, and was the man who led your country to independence. Your country will always celebrate him.

But, an interesting question, @Flyingbrians.

Public statues are, generally, a celebration of an individuals contribution to the life and progress of a nation. They are, again generally, representative of the victors of an argument, rather than those who stood on the wrong side of history.

It has to remembered that these statues were put up as a protest by the Confederates against their loss of the Civil War, and while those States were continuing to enforce racist policies, such as segregation.

They are offensive to the majority of people now, who no longer want the Southern States to be represented by those who fought for slavery to be retained. Taking down statues that offend the majority opinion doesn't remove them from history, it just stops the public celebration of those who were wrong; just as the stopping of allowing public buildings to fly the Confederate flag.

I believe that, 50 years after the racism and segregation that continued in the Southern States long after the ending of the Civil War was confronted by the Civil Rights movement - in which The Beatles played their part by refusing to play to segregated audiences - it is right, and to be applauded, that many Southern States are wanting to see the removal of public tributes to individuals who fought against the tide.

That doesn't mean they are forgotten, just that they are remembered in a different way; often in public museums that portray their contribution to history in a more honest way than a public statue does.

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16 August 2017
10.42am
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Thanks @Ron Nasty, great response. 

I have to say that I agree with every point you made. 

I think I might have been on the fence because of the way they've been tearing the statues down, but I guess it's symbolic so I can understand it. 

Personally i'd probably prefer the statues to be taken down by the local government and put in storage or a museum, or something. It's better then them being on the streets after all. I believe they've already started doing that to some statues in Baltimore. 

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16 August 2017
11.17am
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Von Bontee
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I saw a graph cataloguing Confederate statues, schools named after Confederate heroes, etc., by the year they were constructed/dedicated, and it's no surprise that very few of 'em date back to the immediate postwar years - which lessens what historical import they hold. And most notably, the peak eras for construction were in the 1910s (when the rise of the KKK and lynching/Jim Crow laws were rampant); and in the late 60's, presumably in reaction to the passing of the civil and voting rights acts.

Should this stuff be preserved? Sure, put 'em in private museums not paid for with public funds. Find a consortium of rich racist white guys to pay for it.

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16 August 2017
11.56am
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Starr Shine?
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Did you see trumps statement Ron Nasty?

https://youtu.be/52nwiTs7bk8

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16 August 2017
12.18pm
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Ron Nasty
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I did, @Starr Shine?. I started this conversation in response to his comments yesterday, after reading the full transcript to make sure understand I had the correct context and understanding of his remarks.

So, this week it's Robert E. Lee. I noticed that Stonewall Jackson is coming down. I wonder is it George Washington next week and is it Thomas Jefferson the week after?

You made no indication of being sarcastic in your comment, but merely parroted Trump's statement, which I also think is just silly.

By asking if I had seen Trump's remark, you're admitting your comment was easily misunderstood by anyone, which I would suggest would be most people, who didn't have knowledge that that comment was among the many made - clearly shown by AG's obviously sarcastic response to your post.

Unless you make it clear that you are mocking a statement made by Trump, most will read it as a statement by you.

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16 August 2017
12.21pm
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Starr Shine?
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Ok. Cause context and past experience of 14781 posts don't point towards sarcasm.

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16 August 2017
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Starr Shine? said
Ok. Cause context and past experience of 14781 posts don't point towards sarcasm.  

That post was sarcasm, right. I took it that way based on what came before.

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