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I read the news today (oh boy) - Current world events
3 June 2020
4.08pm
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QuarryMan
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This is a good step from Kloubachar, but it's slightly hypocritical given that whilst working as a prosecutor in Minneapolis over a decade ago, she failed to press charges against more than a dozen officers accused of killing citizens, including Chauvin himself. 

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¡No pasarán!

 

5 June 2020
7.22am
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check this out!

abbey road reopens

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QuarryMan

I am not right, I am right.

5 June 2020
8.52am
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Ron Nasty
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@QuarryMan said
This is a good step from Kloubachar, but it's slightly hypocritical given that whilst working as a prosecutor in Minneapolis over a decade ago, she failed to press charges against more than a dozen officers accused of killing citizens, including Chauvin himself. 

Sorry, but slightly fake news attempting to undermine her politically...

Update May 29 11 a.m. ET: In a statement, the Hennepin County attorney's office said: "Sen. Klobuchar's last day in the office here was December 31 2006, and she had no involvement in the prosecution of this case at all."

Update May 29 12:50 p.m. ET: Speaking on MSNBC on Friday, Klobuchar said "I never declined the case. It was handled and sent to the grand jury ... When I was county attorney, cases we had involving officer-involved shootings went to a grand jury. I think that was wrong, now. It would have been much better if I took responsibility and looked at cases and made a decision myself."

The flaw, as she herself now admits, was giving cases to a grand jury to decide if charges should be brought. American juries have a long history of finding police officers and others not guilty, or not deserving charges, when people of colour have been killed. And she was never involved in the previous Chauvin case.

Let's just hope a jury convicts this time, rather than give the benefit of doubt and letting these former officers walk free, as has happened in so many previous cases.

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The Beatles Bible 2020 non-Canon Poll Part One: 1958-1963 and Part Two: 1964-August 1966

5 June 2020
2.35pm
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QuarryMan
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Ron Nasty said

@QuarryMan said

This is a good step from Kloubachar, but it's slightly hypocritical given that whilst working as a prosecutor in Minneapolis over a decade ago, she failed to press charges against more than a dozen officers accused of killing citizens, including Chauvin himself. 

Sorry, but slightly fake news attempting to undermine her politically...

Update May 29 11 a.m. ET: In a statement, the Hennepin County attorney's office said: "Sen. Klobuchar's last day in the office here was December 31 2006, and she had no involvement in the prosecution of this case at all."

Update May 29 12:50 p.m. ET: Speaking on MSNBC on Friday, Klobuchar said "I never declined the case. It was handled and sent to the grand jury ... When I was county attorney, cases we had involving officer-involved shootings went to a grand jury. I think that was wrong, now. It would have been much better if I took responsibility and looked at cases and made a decision myself."

The flaw, as she herself now admits, was giving cases to a grand jury to decide if charges should be brought. American juries have a long history of finding police officers and others not guilty, or not deserving charges, when people of colour have been killed. And she was never involved in the previous Chauvin case.

Let's just hope a jury convicts this time, rather than give the benefit of doubt and letting these former officers walk free, as has happened in so many previous cases.

  

I stand corrected. Thanks for sharing the full story!

¡No pasarán!

 

5 June 2020
4.20pm
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Dark Overlord
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Ron Nasty said
Let's just hope a jury convicts this time, rather than give the benefit of doubt and letting these former officers walk free, as has happened in so many previous cases.

How could they possibly have any doubt with such irrefutable video evidence? The only thing they could say was that he initially resisted arrest but he did so non-violently and they continued to strangle him, even after he was cuffed.

Not to mention, his death had bipartisan outrage with even Donald Trump condemning the officer that killed him and the Westboro Baptist Church referring to it as a "brutal murder". Hell, even the Daily Stormer, a neo-Nazi website, initially condemned the officer.

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5 June 2020
5.48pm
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QuarryMan
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And yet they initially only charged him with third degree murder, and the other three officers weren't charged at all. On Thursday, the charge was changed to second degree murder, and the other three officers were charged as well. If it wasn't for all the protesting, petitioning and campaigning, I don't think this would've happened.

That said, the people who are arguing that Chauvin should be charged with first degree murder are on shaky ground with that claim - for it to be first degree it requires it being premeditated, and while Chauvin did know Floyd having worked with him in the past, I haven't heard of any evidence beyond that fact, such as them having a history of not getting along. My worry is that if he does get charged with first degree murder, he might then walk free because of a lack of evidence for the requirement of it being premeditated. 

¡No pasarán!

 

5 June 2020
5.49pm
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Ron Nasty
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The Beatles Bible 2020 non-Canon Poll Part One: 1958-1963 and Part Two: 1964-August 1966

5 June 2020
6.12pm
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meanmistermustard
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How on earth can anyone say the man in this video slipped when he was clearly pushed? It mystifies me the nonsense people spout even when there is video footage showing something entirely else. 

And now the entire riot squad have quit due to two officers were placed on unpaid leave. I genuinely am lost for words at what the police are doing out on the streets and then what is being said to in some way justify, excuse and explain their actions.

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5 June 2020
7.02pm
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Dark Overlord
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While that man was definitely pushed, i think it's really nice that the riot squad quit because that's exactly what the protesters want (albeit for the exact opposite reason) and hopefully they'll use this as an excuse to calm down.

QuarryMan said
That said, the people who are arguing that Chauvin should be charged with first degree murder are on shaky ground with that claim - for it to be first degree it requires it being premeditated, and while Chauvin did know Floyd having worked with him in the past, I haven't heard of any evidence beyond that fact, such as them having a history of not getting along. My worry is that if he does get charged with first degree murder, he might then walk free because of a lack of evidence for the requirement of it being premeditated.

I think it's worth pointing out that he's being charged with 2nd degree murder in addition to 3rd degree murder and 2nd degree manslaughter so if he was charged with 1st degree murder, that charge would likely be added to the charges so even if he isn't found guilty of 1st degree murder, he'd be found guilty of 2nd and 3rd degree murder, as well as 2nd degree manslaughter.

And even if he is found innocent on all charges (which is very unlikely at this point), he'll be fearing for his life because a good chunk of the protesters would kill him if he's found innocent so they'd have to give him a new identity and send him off to a completely different place. Even in prison, he's on suicide watch so it's possible that he dies before trial.

Don't get me wrong, i believe that no one has the right to take away someone's life unless they're an immediate threat to someone else's life and i would be against anyone, even people like Derek Chauvin, receiving the death penalty or being assassinated but not everyone thinks that way.

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7 June 2020
5.42pm
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QuarryMan
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In a surprising development, Minneapolis city councillors have announced plans to disband their police department and replace it with community led public safety. I've been meaning to research police/prison abolition or defunding for a while now, as I'm not yet familiar with the particulars of what alternatives could be, though yesterday I did download an ebook called 'The End of Policing' (which is currently free at https://www.versobooks.com/ - no this isn't a paid promotion a-hard-days-night-john-6) which I'll try and get around to in the next couple days.

What are people's thoughts on this? It'll be interesting to see how this one pans out - the idealist in me hopes that it'll work but I'm still slightly sceptical. Guess I'll just have to look into it more. 

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7 June 2020
5.47pm
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I think it's worth pointing out that he's being charged with 2nd degree murder in addition to 3rd degree murder and 2nd degree manslaughter so if he was charged with 1st degree murder, that charge would likely be added to the charges so even if he isn't found guilty of 1st degree murder, he'd be found guilty of 2nd and 3rd degree murder, as well as 2nd degree manslaughter.

Genuine question, as I'm not too familiar with this, but is that how it works? Isn't it contradictory to simultaneously charge someone with multiple different degrees of murder? The definition of third degree according to Minneapolis law is "without intent to effect the death of any person", whereas second degree is "any intentional murder with malice aforethought", two contradictory definitions. How could someone be charged with both at the same time? 

Edit: just thought about it and I guess it would make sense if it was phrased like "we accuse you of premeditated/first degree murder, but if you can prove it wasn't premeditated, then we accuse you of second degree/third degree murder instead". Still a bit confused though.

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7 June 2020
11.11pm
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Dark Overlord
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Regarding disbanding the police, i'm completely shocked and speechless. I was expecting them to just arrest the officers, talk some identity politics, and call it a day but they actually did something progressive to help prevent future instances of police brutality.

But while i'm jumping for joy at the fact that we're one step closer to an anarchist utopia where the people control everything, i'm also concerned about how they'd deal with an actual crime.

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8 June 2020
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I believe that the general idea behind police abolition is basically to replace them with a series of non-armed alternatives for every given task police are required to do. For example, if there was someone threatening suicide on the edge of a bridge, instead of sending an officer they'd send a social worker. I'm not really sure what the alternative would be in the case of a burglary or something like that, though.   

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8 June 2020
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Ron Nasty
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Though it is only one police force being suggested will be abolished. No mentions that Minnesota's parks police or their transit police, which are separate organisations, are to be abolished.

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8 June 2020
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Paul has made a statement about George Floyd, racism, and the protests.

https://www.rollingstone.com/m.....t-1010925/

Paul McCartney : ‘I Want Justice for George Floyd’s Family’

As we continue to see the protests and demonstrations across the world, I know many of us want to know just what we can be doing to help. None of us have all the answers and there is no quick fix but we need change. We all need to work together to overcome racism in any form. We need to learn more, listen more, talk more, educate ourselves and, above all, take action.

In 1964, the Beatles were due to play Jacksonville in the US and we found out that it was going to be to a segregated audience. It felt wrong. We said, ‘We’re not doing that!’ And the concert we did do was to their first non-segregated audience. We then made sure this was in our contract. To us it seemed like common sense.

I feel sick and angry that here we are almost 60 years later, and the world is in shock at the horrific scenes of the senseless murder of George Floyd at the hands of police racism, along with the countless others that came before.

All of us here support and stand alongside all those who are protesting and raising their voices at this time. I want justice for George Floyd’s family, I want justice for all those who have died and suffered. Saying nothing is not an option.

Love Paul McCartney

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8 June 2020
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a-hard-days-night-ringo-8 I actually really rated Paul's statement. Seems one of the more heartfelt and genuine ones I've seen from the music industry, and perfectly states the frustration at how little we've progressed in 60 years. (Maybe I'm slightly biased.)

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8 June 2020
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The Minnesota PD won't just cease to exist, leaving a vast law enforcement hole. It will be dismantled over time, its parts replaced by other problem-solving mechanisms where possible. The "defund the police" motto is dangerous in that people will perceive it as opening the door to lawlessness. In point of fact what is being proposed is a process of putting alternatives in place for duties that are just better served by individuals with different training. Examples might be people with addictions or mental illness, though I can't say I know all the details and in any event those are things that need to be worked out and transitioned over time. There will almost certainly be some situations where the appropriate response is "traditional" policing. The point is just that this isn't a one size fits all solution...

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8 June 2020
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a-hard-days-night-ringo-8Agreed. This should be an incremental, evidence-based change, not a sudden one. 

Having thought about it more, it doesn't really make much sense to have the police be responsible for so many different things. Better to have better trained professionals responding to specific issues than police officers who might not really know what they're doing trying to everything.

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10 June 2020
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You don't lose the history by tearing down statues and renaming streets and buildings, only make it more likely the history will be forgotten - and repeated.

You don't get justice by abolishing the police, you get that in the US by setting minimum enforceable federal standards on how policing is done and the training it needs; when you're found to have broken the rules and been dismissed - not having a job with the department in the next county within a week, or having the dismissal overturned by overly strong unions; and when you're accused of breaking the law, and you're charged and tried by the law - not some version that thinks death by cop gives some sort of immunity to those in the dock.

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10 June 2020
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meanmistermustard said
How on earth can anyone say the man in this video slipped when he was clearly pushed? It mystifies me the nonsense people spout even when there is video footage showing something entirely else. 

And now the entire riot squad have quit due to two officers were placed on unpaid leave. I genuinely am lost for words at what the police are doing out on the streets and then what is being said to in some way justify, excuse and explain their actions.

  

Well the police was often criticized for being negatively stereotypical of African-Americans, to the point where police agression against blacks is fairly common. This is scientific proof that police agression is not race-motivated, good for them.

But in all honesty, the act honestly disgusts me. No matter who's fault it is, it should be common human nature to forsake your duty in order to act as a helping hand. It doesn't matter if your white or black, religious or atheist, male or female, no one should be injured and left hanging. In my country, you'd probably be ostracized from every single bystander watching, and that's if you're not arrested and charged with idleness.

Ron Nasty said
You don't lose the history by tearing down statues and renaming streets and buildings, only make it more likely the history will be forgotten - and repeated.

You don't get justice by abolishing the police, you get that in the US by setting minimum enforceable federal standards on how policing is done and the training it needs; when you're found to have broken the rules and been dismissed - not having a job with the department in the next county within a week, or having the dismissal overturned by overly strong unions; and when you're accused of breaking the law, and you're charged and tried by the law - not some version that thinks death by cop gives some sort of immunity to those in the dock.

  

Law reformation should be the prime application change that should be done, where police can be less likely to abuse their authority on civilians. It could be kept for certain specialized forces such as the SWAT and anti-terrorism forces, but not for the average policemen policing the common streets. In terms of theory, however, society (or at least the police force), could think of ways to dispel negative stereotyping in general, so that less unnecesarry police brutalities can occur. The George Floyd incident (in my opinion), is what happens when you take a negative stereotype, and use it as a base of arrest, and it goes too far. You might not be intrinsically racist, but there's always a negative stereotype or perception with someone different than you, especially when someone has a different complexion. So I would suggest that increased integration or education regarding this issue could be done to, at the very least, diminish the stereotyping aspect a little bit.

Pablo Ramon said
The Minnesota PD won't just cease to exist, leaving a vast law enforcement hole. It will be dismantled over time, its parts replaced by other problem-solving mechanisms where possible. The "defund the police" motto is dangerous in that people will perceive it as opening the door to lawlessness. In point of fact what is being proposed is a process of putting alternatives in place for duties that are just better served by individuals with different training. Examples might be people with addictions or mental illness, though I can't say I know all the details and in any event those are things that need to be worked out and transitioned over time. There will almost certainly be some situations where the appropriate response is "traditional" policing. The point is just that this isn't a one size fits all solution...

  

Agreed. The American Police isn't inherently bad per se, but rather how it executes it's approches. It doesn't help that the American police has been long infamous for it's history of police brutalities against people of color, peaceful protesters and the like. From what I know, most of my peers treat the American police with a bit of scorn and unease. My dad even said he trusted the Chinese police more, as they don't arrrest you unncesarily unless you said something bad about the Chinese Communist Party. That's how low my father thinks of the American police. It's bad PR, both locally and internationally. 

Though I respect the American police on several aspects, such as their anti-terrorist and traffic deparments (I'm not joking, I respect your local meter maid, such as Rita), I can't help but feel less and less about the American police everytime they have a controversial moment.

Side note: I don't frequent this thread often, so I might as wel machine-gun my thoughts in one blow. Also I'd like tea with my local meter maid one day, perhaps.

Fixing a hole where the rain gets in during my spare time.

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