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I read the news today (oh boy) - Current world events
11 September 2019
8.06am
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Ron Nasty
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Going back to your last reply, @Wigwam, I'm afraid we don't agree.

You think the pure numbers matter while I think them irrelevant and that it's the percentages that matter.

You think the 17.4 million is the important thing while I think that it only represents 37.48% of the electorate that matters.

On prorogation, yes, agreed that a new Queen's Speech is necessary, but that could be done in the first week of November, after the 31st October deadline has passed (one way or another), and the length of the prorogation was/is unnecessarily long when the usual length of proroguing for a Queen's Speech is 3 or 4 days.

You, following the Government line, suggest only a few days lost because of the recess for the party conferences, ignoring the fact that Parliament looked likely to vote against any recess. That's the big difference between prorogation and a recess - prorogation is decided by the PM and cannot be opposed by Parliament, while a recess needs to voted on by the Commons and looked likely to be voted against.

And as the Court of Session ruled today, the length of this prorogation was/is to prevent proper and necessary Parliamentary scrutiny of the Government.

We will see what the UK Supreme Court say next week, but that the highest court to examine the arguments so far has found against the Government must be worrying Boris.

Also interesting that the Government's lawyers made no attempt to suspend the effect of the ruling until the Supreme Court case, meaning Parliament should be recalled, but looks like waiting until the Supreme Court ruling without asking permission.

And as for how a no deal Brexit affects me, I live in the UK and receive sickness benefits because of my physical and mental health issues. That income has already been greatly affected by austerity. If the effects of a no deal Brexit prove as bad as leaks of the Government's Yellowhammer papers suggest, I'll be hit by rising prices in the shops, especially on fresh food, limited availability on some goods, fresh food being an example, as well as the 7 medications I need to take daily, and a government no longer able to spend on public services in the way Boris has been running around declaring in recent weeks - another reason Boris has been trying to get an election before Brexit.

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11 September 2019
3.07pm
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The Yellowhammer impact assessment of no deal has been published on the Government's website, per Parliament's instruction (afraid I can't link).

Lots and lots to be concerned about for UK residents and UK citizens living in Europe.

They have (again) decided to break the law by refusing to publish the discussions they had about prorogation (surprise, surprise), leaving Johnson open to a charge of contempt of Parliament, which is a criminal offense that can lead to imprisonment.

It'll be interesting to see what they do should the Supreme Court, as likely following the Scottish ruling based on some of the papers, demand the everything next Tuesday.

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11 September 2019
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Ron Nasty said
Going back to your last reply, @Wigwam, I'm afraid we don't agree.

You think the pure numbers matter while I think them irrelevant and that it's the percentages that matter.

You think the 17.4 million is the important thing while I think that it only represents 37.48% of the electorate that matters.

On prorogation, yes, agreed that a new Queen's Speech is necessary, but that could be done in the first week of November, after the 31st October deadline has passed (one way or another), and the length of the prorogation was/is unnecessarily long when the usual length of proroguing for a Queen's Speech is 3 or 4 days.

You, following the Government line, suggest only a few days lost because of the recess for the party conferences, ignoring the fact that Parliament looked likely to vote against any recess. That's the big difference between prorogation and a recess - prorogation is decided by the PM and cannot be opposed by Parliament, while a recess needs to voted on by the Commons and looked likely to be voted against.

And as the Court of Session ruled today, the length of this prorogation was/is to prevent proper and necessary Parliamentary scrutiny of the Government.

We will see what the UK Supreme Court say next week, but that the highest court to examine the arguments so far has found against the Government must be worrying Boris.

Also interesting that the Government's lawyers made no attempt to suspend the effect of the ruling until the Supreme Court case, meaning Parliament should be recalled, but looks like waiting until the Supreme Court ruling without asking permission.

And as for how a no deal Brexit affects me, I live in the UK and receive sickness benefits because of my physical and mental health issues. That income has already been greatly affected by austerity. If the effects of a no deal Brexit prove as bad as leaks of the Government's Yellowhammer papers suggest, I'll be hit by rising prices in the shops, especially on fresh food, limited availability on some goods, fresh food being an example, as well as the 7 medications I need to take daily, and a government no longer able to spend on public services in the way Boris has been running around declaring in recent weeks - another reason Boris has been trying to get an election before Brexit.

  

I made the point that the 2016 referendum remains, (unless numbers don't matter at all to you) the biggest total vote participation in any UK election. The point and equivocation that you make, regarding percentages of votes and rising populations I accept.......Both events are not mutually exclusive.....The point I made remains true without disproving yours....The point you make likewise doesn't disprove mine. 

The abuse of that vote in 2016 and failure of Parliament to implement its democratic result is the well-spring of all that has followed. Democracy has become a currency for MPs on all sides to wheel and deal in......procedural delays, legal advantages seized upon where they suit and blind-eyes turned against them when they don't. Erskine May has never been so well-thumbed.....The Speaker has become the Ring master in this circus when it was so vital in our history that he remained the impartial Umpire.....His seat will need disinfecting before a new Speaker takes up residence.

Indeed the overturning by the Scottish civil court Judges who employ Scottish law which it need pointing out is a different law to that the original English Judge's ruling..... which said that indeed  the porogation was legal......The over turning of this original decision will be of concern to the Government.....Let's see if the ruling is upheld and that Judges can determine, with legal certainty what the government's intentions are? 

Getting the people's will through is a fight worth fighting for.......Contempt of it is worrying. People who have no respect for democracy have no business running one.

All I could  say to Boris is that when the odds stack up against you, recall Churchill's words......"When you're going through Hell, keep walking" 

My sympathies for your physical and mental conditions.........And of course I hope and believe the worst predictions will prove over-egged, as they always have been so far regarding breixit.

Oh and genuine commiserations re your lap-top. ........I'm sure you'll sort it all out....But an unnecessary pain.  

 

PS. I throughly enjoy the opportunity of putting my alternative arguments to you and I'm grateful for your responses which are always fair, erudite, researched and well supported by other like-minded board members.....

Cheers

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11 September 2019
8.42pm
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Ron Nasty
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I'm afraid I do find the pure numbers irrelevant, @Wigwam. May's stupidly called General Election had a higher Electorate, as did this year's EU elections.

The turnout and percentages are the important things, as I've said more than once. The pure numbers tell the story of a growing electorate, while the turnout and percentages tell the story of how that electorate divides.

As previously said, the leave vote was 37.48% of the electorate. Not a majority of the electorate.

I am worried that one of my heart medications is already starting to become hard to get.

I'm pleased you find our debates on this respectful and well argued (on your side as well). You remind me of a guy I did politics with at college, Ricky, in the middle of the of the '80s miners strike.

Feck, did we disagree and dominate the class, but we always played the ball and not the person, which is what we're (hopefully) doing.

paul-mccartney-thumb_gif

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12 September 2019
12.11am
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I can see you find the numbers irrelevant......I still find and feel that the greatest total numbers in terms of the exercising of a democratic vote in the UK's history is a landmark worthy of recognition ......

I didn't study politics in any form other than a one year A level in British Constitution that I slipped into my upper 6th years purely because, (if I'm honest) an overwhelming interest in the girls from a neighbouring girl's school joined in the course that year.

Any interest in politics has been fairly recent......It stems mostly from an infuriation with the over-bearing and basically unaccountable EU.....and its direction towards political union....Oh...... and a detestation for Political Correctness 

You and I, as we regularly prove..... will never see eye-to-eye......But that's fine.

I put in my 'PS.' because in an earlier post you said something along the lines of: 'being free to avoid getting into a pissing contest with me'.....And that's not my objective.

All I want to achieve is the voicing of the unpopular opinions I believe in.

I'm a mostly un-reconstructed man and I refuse to submit myself to the current pernicious pressure to conform to the whims and language that stems from the PC re-education boot camps......

I'm hoping that at the end of year awards there's a vote for most unpopular poster......I feel I'm in with a fighting chance......

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12 September 2019
12.34am
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There's a category for 'poster most likely to make you go hmmm...'
But in all honestly, even though I don't have enough time this week to make posts longer than a few sentences, I do enjoy reading everyone's posts in these threads. It's always intriguing to see different ideas, even if I can't really respond to them.
Best thing is, everything is staying respectful - and as the reigning ' poster who stays most respectful even through disagreements', that makes me particularly happy to see.

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12 September 2019
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I think we all admire your conviction, even if we tend to disagree with you, @Wigwam . Unpopular opinions do not an unpopular Bibler make - hateful opinions might, but to my knowledge I've never seen any in this thread or others, to all of our credit. 

EDIT: also, these conversations would be awfully dull without anybody to provide an opposing viewpoint. 

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12 September 2019
8.23pm
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I am at your service in that regard Sir.........Wigwam...the in tents one!

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13 September 2019
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Wigwam...the in tents one!

How long have you been waiting to crack that one a-hard-days-night-john-6?

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13 September 2019
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QuarryMan said

Wigwam...the in tents one!

How long have you been waiting to crack that one a-hard-days-night-john-6?

  

A while .....It was tough to pitch......I had a portent I'd be taken down a peg to two......

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16 September 2019
6.54pm
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Two major events on Thursday for everyone to gear up for:

The Supreme Court in the UK rules whether it was legal for Boris (for he is now officially known only by his first name since he's looking to follow in a long line like Madonna, Prince and Bouncer) to suspend Parliament after the Scottish courts told the English courts they're wrong (it's not that simple but we always like doing that and it's a damn sight more enjoyable typing that than going into it all).

Apple release ios13. 

 

It's nice Parliament being closed.

"I told you everything I could about me, Told you everything I could" ('Before Believing' - Emmylou Harris) 

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16 September 2019
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meanmistermustard said

 

It's nice Parliament being closed.

  

Agree......I'm told that the scaffolding around Parliament has been put in place to strengthen the walls because of a build-up of methane due to all the BS.....

18 September 2019
10.45pm
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a-hard-days-night-ringo-8 Methane from the Government and the Conservative ERG. ahdn_john_08_gifjohn-lennon-salute_gifa-hard-days-night-george-10

Anyway, why I came here...

Climate change denier Donald Trump has moved against California setting lower car emissions than federal standards, which 13 other states and DC have also adopted. Even four of the largest car manufacturers (Ford, Honda, Volkswagon, & BMW) don't agree with him.

Yes, they could make cheaper cars, but they think more damaging cars.

There was, and still is, the hope that when Trump pulled out of the Paris Agreement, the states would carry on regardless - and now he seems to be taking away the states rights to react appropriately should they disagree with him.

Good to see California already launching a legal challenge defending state rights against federal government, and especially against Presidential decree.

Hopefully the courts will rule against this intrusion on the rights of a State to set its own pollution standards, all the way to the Supreme Court.

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19 September 2019
1.33am
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The US' pollution is roughly half that of China's..........

http://worldpopulationreview.c.....y-country/

But it's always Trump that's held to account......There's lots in the news this week about the fires begun in Malaysia ........

You trundle out........'Climate change denier Donald Trump'  

I'm interested....... has Trump ever specifically denied that Climate change exists?......Or does he argue the causes of it or that there's always been climate change and that if it is man made, unless China and the other major polluters play by the same rules not much can be achieved?

In any case I hope you take a look at age video below....

 

 

Understand me...... despite being a climate sinner myself...(I don't eat beef but I run my AC and brush my teeth in the shower).

I believe we live together on this spaceship called Earth.... Enough water, air, food and atmosphere to protect us from the sun's solar rays......

I agree we can't continually pollute the Earth without harmful ramifications........We have a duty of stewardship for future generations.

I got this long before 'climate change' was a term ever heard.....Back in the olden days when we just had seasons and weather systems. At school in the 60s  I learned about conservation.....

Before the British Agricultural Revolution and the advent of 'enclosure' most of the land was Common Land......There were certain rules to obey regarding pasture and pannage otherwise the land would be overused and become useless to all........

But it was never any good one farmer playing by those rules if the rest didn't..........

Please..........not just Trump.........There's lots in the news every week......Bashing Trump again!!! That turns the whole argument in to a game of political point scoring. 

19 September 2019
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Good timing, considering millions of people are going on strike to demand climate action tomorrow...

The argument about CO2 not making the earth warmer - that flies in the face of basic Physics, we did an experiment on that at school.

And the argument that there has been no significant warming in this century? Literally the funniest thing I've heard in a long time - from wikipedia (not the best source I know but they sum it up well, and it's in the references anyway)

The global average and combined land and ocean surface temperature, show a warming of 0.85 [0.65 to 1.06] °C, in the period 1880 to 2012, based on multiple independently produced datasets.[3] This gives a trend of 0.064 ± 0.015 °C per decade over that period. The trend is faster for land than ocean, faster for Arctic regions, and faster since the 1970s than the longer period.

Top 10 warmest years (NOAA)(1880–2018)
RankYearAnomaly °CAnomaly °F
120160.941.69
220150.901.62
320170.841.51
420180.771.39
520140.741.33
620100.701.26
720130.661.19
820050.651.17
920090.641.15
1019980.631.13

Basically, I don't know where that video got their facts from but they're wrong - every single piece of science I've read, and I've done quite a few small scale experiments at school too, contradicts that video.

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19 September 2019
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My friend have you ever heard of Black matter?

Got a cold........take vitamin C?

We know how to kill a virus?

We have cured polio?

Lightening doesn't strike in the same place does it?

Is the largest living organism the blue whale/the redwood forest/Titanosaur?...........Or a mushroom?

We have 5 senses...Don't we

We evolved from apes.......Gorillas and chimps didn't we?

We only use 10% of our brains........We all know that.

The moon has a dark side.........Doesn't it?

Hair and fingernails grow after death.......Don't they?

Did I mention Dark matter and Dark energy?.........After thousands of years of studying the stars, mankind only recently discovered that what we have been studying represents only 5% of the universe......95% is Dark matter/energy which we have completely ignored........

'Excuse me Sir my experiment hasn't worked right."

'Do it again Wigwam until you get it right.'

Like all of us  scientists have a herd mentality.........Up until 1990.........97% of scientists and Drs recommended babies slept on their stomachs........Now 97% agree babies should sleep on their backs.

As for climate......The science isn't settled and you should challenge your teachers who know all the answers........Start by asking if they know their arses from their elbows?

19 September 2019
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@Wigwam said

You trundle out........'Climate change denier Donald Trump'  

I'm interested....... has Trump ever specifically denied that Climate change exists?

He does, depending on the day, accept climate change is happening, however rejects the scientific evidence that it is man-made.

For instance:

So Obama's talking about all of this with the global warming and the—a lot of it's a hoax, it's a hoax. I mean, it's a money-making industry, okay? It's a hoax, a lot of it.

from a speech on 30 December 2015; or talking to the editorial board of the Washington Post on 21 March 2016:

I think there’s a change in weather. I am not a great believer in man-made climate change. I’m not a great believer. There is certainly a change in weather that goes – if you look, they had global cooling in the 1920s and now they have global warming, although now they don’t know if they have global warming. They call it all sorts of different things; now they’re using “extreme weather” I guess more than any other phrase. I am not – I know it hurts me with this room, and I know it’s probably a killer with this room – but I am not a believer. Perhaps there’s a minor effect, but I’m not a big believer in man-made climate change.

or you could have a tweet from 29 January 2014:

Snowing in Texas and Louisiana, record setting freezing temperatures throughout the country and beyond. Global warming is an expensive hoax!

or another tweet from 28 December 2017:

In the East, it could be the COLDEST New Year’s Eve on record. Perhaps we could use a little bit of that good old Global Warming that our Country, but not other countries, was going to pay TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS to protect against. Bundle up!

or his 60 Minutes interview with Lesley Stahl on 18 October 2018

Lesley Stahl: “Do you still think that climate change is a hoax?”

President Donald Trump: “I think something's happening. Something 's changing and it'll change back again. I don't think it's a hoax, I think there's probably a difference. But I don't know that it's manmade. I will say this. I don't wanna give trillions and trillions of dollars. I don't wanna lose millions and millions of jobs. I don't wanna be put at a disadvantage.”

Lesley Stahl: “I wish you could go to Greenland, watch these huge chunks of ice just falling into the ocean, raising the sea levels.”

President Donald Trump: “And you don't know whether or not that would have happened with or without man. You don't know.”

Lesley Stahl: “Well, your scientists, your scientists–”

President Donald Trump: “No, we have–”

Lesley Stahl: “At NOAA and NASA–”

President Donald Trump: “We have scientists that disagree with that.”

Lesley Stahl: “You know, I– I was thinking what if he said, 'No, I've seen the hurricane situations, I've changed my mind. There really is climate change.' And I thought, 'Wow, what an impact.'”

President Donald Trump: “Well– I'm not denying.”

Lesley Stahl: “What an impact that would make.”

President Donald Trump: “I'm not denying climate change. But it could very well go back. You know, we're talkin' about over a millions–”

Lesley Stahl: “But that's denying it.”

President Donald Trump:  –of years. They say that we had hurricanes that were far worse than what we just had with Michael.”

Lesley Stahl: “Who says that? 'They say'?”

President Donald Trump: “People say. People say that in the–”

Lesley Stahl:” Yeah, but what about the scientists who say it's worse than ever?”

President Donald Trump: “You'd have to show me the scientists because they have a very big political agenda, Lesley.”

Lesley Stahl: “I can't bring them in.”

President Donald Trump: “Look, scientists also have a political agenda.”

He has become more nuanced over the years, but his basic rejection of man-made climate change continues to shine through.

The China argument, used by many, is a crock.

You do what you can do, rather than say that you won't because someone else won't. The next step from that argument is why should any of the countries still signed up to the Paris Agreement do anything if America won't, and then we all go to hell in a handcart.

And what he is trying to do isn't only to do with climate change, but also rolling back a State's right to set to it's own pollution standards.

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19 September 2019
9.41am
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The China argument is highly significant..........It's not a crock as you say.......There's no point in the US donning the energy shackles when China and the rest of the world only seek without hindrance to profit from US manufacturing constraints ......The Paris accord put no restrictions on China and other major polluters like India for 10 years.

And it's clear from what you say that trump isn't a denier just a questioner........

As the science isn't settled that's a reasonable stance........

Now let's see you attack communist China with a similar vigour.........Or will you insist it's all down to Trump.

Be fair, impartial and balanced my friend. Or frankly don't bother. 

19 September 2019
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Oh, I'm critical of China as well, @Wigwam.

I just don't agree with the argument that if they do nothing nobody else should, just as I'd disagree with any country (and, thankfully, there have been none) who followed Trump's example and pulled out of the Paris Agreement.

What interests me is the planet and how we can keep it habitable for those that follow us, rather than shrugging my shoulders and saying there's a good chance I'll be gone long before the worst happens.

Though that's not a certainty as the weather continues to get worse year on year.

So, when Trump calls it a "hoax" and an "expensive hoax", that you think is just questioning?

And, I'm sorry, there is scientific consensus on climate change and its causes. Yes, you can still find scientists who argue against, but they are a tiny minority, and you can still find scientists who argue against vaccines based on discredited evidence, who don't believe in evolution, who believe the world was created in six days...

Trump has just become more equivocal as he's become more political and realised being so anti would lose him votes.

You also ignore the point of him taking away the rights of a State to disagree and set their own standards.

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19 September 2019
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Wigwam said 

Got a cold........take vitamin C?

Yes?

We know how to kill a virus?

Depends on the virus...

We have cured polio?

I think so?

Lightening doesn't strike in the same place does it?

Actually, it does. 

 

We have 5 senses...Don't we

Yes.

We evolved from apes.......Gorillas and chimps didn’t we?

Not really... it’s just that we all evolved from the same organisms.

We only use 10% of our brains........We all know that.

Nope.

Hair and fingernails grow after death.......Don't they?

Also no.

What is the point you are trying to make here?

Also, to answer your question about whether Trump has explicitly denied the existence of climate change, yes, I believe he has.

Trump needs to get himself and his stupid laws out of my state blue-meanie

Love one another.

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