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I read the news today (oh boy) - Current world events
11 September 2019
8.06am
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Ron Nasty
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Going back to your last reply, @Wigwam, I'm afraid we don't agree.

You think the pure numbers matter while I think them irrelevant and that it's the percentages that matter.

You think the 17.4 million is the important thing while I think that it only represents 37.48% of the electorate that matters.

On prorogation, yes, agreed that a new Queen's Speech is necessary, but that could be done in the first week of November, after the 31st October deadline has passed (one way or another), and the length of the prorogation was/is unnecessarily long when the usual length of proroguing for a Queen's Speech is 3 or 4 days.

You, following the Government line, suggest only a few days lost because of the recess for the party conferences, ignoring the fact that Parliament looked likely to vote against any recess. That's the big difference between prorogation and a recess - prorogation is decided by the PM and cannot be opposed by Parliament, while a recess needs to voted on by the Commons and looked likely to be voted against.

And as the Court of Session ruled today, the length of this prorogation was/is to prevent proper and necessary Parliamentary scrutiny of the Government.

We will see what the UK Supreme Court say next week, but that the highest court to examine the arguments so far has found against the Government must be worrying Boris.

Also interesting that the Government's lawyers made no attempt to suspend the effect of the ruling until the Supreme Court case, meaning Parliament should be recalled, but looks like waiting until the Supreme Court ruling without asking permission.

And as for how a no deal Brexit affects me, I live in the UK and receive sickness benefits because of my physical and mental health issues. That income has already been greatly affected by austerity. If the effects of a no deal Brexit prove as bad as leaks of the Government's Yellowhammer papers suggest, I'll be hit by rising prices in the shops, especially on fresh food, limited availability on some goods, fresh food being an example, as well as the 7 medications I need to take daily, and a government no longer able to spend on public services in the way Boris has been running around declaring in recent weeks - another reason Boris has been trying to get an election before Brexit.

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"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty

 

The Beatles Non-Canon Poll List

11 September 2019
3.07pm
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Ron Nasty
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The Yellowhammer impact assessment of no deal has been published on the Government's website, per Parliament's instruction (afraid I can't link).

Lots and lots to be concerned about for UK residents and UK citizens living in Europe.

They have (again) decided to break the law by refusing to publish the discussions they had about prorogation (surprise, surprise), leaving Johnson open to a charge of contempt of Parliament, which is a criminal offense that can lead to imprisonment.

It'll be interesting to see what they do should the Supreme Court, as likely following the Scottish ruling based on some of the papers, demand the everything next Tuesday.

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The Beatles Non-Canon Poll List

11 September 2019
7.36pm
Wigwam
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Ron Nasty said
Going back to your last reply, @Wigwam, I'm afraid we don't agree.

You think the pure numbers matter while I think them irrelevant and that it's the percentages that matter.

You think the 17.4 million is the important thing while I think that it only represents 37.48% of the electorate that matters.

On prorogation, yes, agreed that a new Queen's Speech is necessary, but that could be done in the first week of November, after the 31st October deadline has passed (one way or another), and the length of the prorogation was/is unnecessarily long when the usual length of proroguing for a Queen's Speech is 3 or 4 days.

You, following the Government line, suggest only a few days lost because of the recess for the party conferences, ignoring the fact that Parliament looked likely to vote against any recess. That's the big difference between prorogation and a recess - prorogation is decided by the PM and cannot be opposed by Parliament, while a recess needs to voted on by the Commons and looked likely to be voted against.

And as the Court of Session ruled today, the length of this prorogation was/is to prevent proper and necessary Parliamentary scrutiny of the Government.

We will see what the UK Supreme Court say next week, but that the highest court to examine the arguments so far has found against the Government must be worrying Boris.

Also interesting that the Government's lawyers made no attempt to suspend the effect of the ruling until the Supreme Court case, meaning Parliament should be recalled, but looks like waiting until the Supreme Court ruling without asking permission.

And as for how a no deal Brexit affects me, I live in the UK and receive sickness benefits because of my physical and mental health issues. That income has already been greatly affected by austerity. If the effects of a no deal Brexit prove as bad as leaks of the Government's Yellowhammer papers suggest, I'll be hit by rising prices in the shops, especially on fresh food, limited availability on some goods, fresh food being an example, as well as the 7 medications I need to take daily, and a government no longer able to spend on public services in the way Boris has been running around declaring in recent weeks - another reason Boris has been trying to get an election before Brexit.

  

I made the point that the 2016 referendum remains, (unless numbers don't matter at all to you) the biggest total vote participation in any UK election. The point and equivocation that you make, regarding percentages of votes and rising populations I accept.......Both events are not mutually exclusive.....The point I made remains true without disproving yours....The point you make likewise doesn't disprove mine. 

The abuse of that vote in 2016 and failure of Parliament to implement its democratic result is the well-spring of all that has followed. Democracy has become a currency for MPs on all sides to wheel and deal in......procedural delays, legal advantages seized upon where they suit and blind-eyes turned against them when they don't. Erskine May has never been so well-thumbed.....The Speaker has become the Ring master in this circus when it was so vital in our history that he remained the impartial Umpire.....His seat will need disinfecting before a new Speaker takes up residence.

Indeed the overturning by the Scottish civil court Judges who employ Scottish law which it need pointing out is a different law to that the original English Judge's ruling..... which said that indeed  the porogation was legal......The over turning of this original decision will be of concern to the Government.....Let's see if the ruling is upheld and that Judges can determine, with legal certainty what the government's intentions are? 

Getting the people's will through is a fight worth fighting for.......Contempt of it is worrying. People who have no respect for democracy have no business running one.

All I could  say to Boris is that when the odds stack up against you, recall Churchill's words......"When you're going through Hell, keep walking" 

My sympathies for your physical and mental conditions.........And of course I hope and believe the worst predictions will prove over-egged, as they always have been so far regarding breixit.

Oh and genuine commiserations re your lap-top. ........I'm sure you'll sort it all out....But an unnecessary pain.  

 

PS. I throughly enjoy the opportunity of putting my alternative arguments to you and I'm grateful for your responses which are always fair, erudite, researched and well supported by other like-minded board members.....

Cheers

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11 September 2019
8.42pm
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Ron Nasty
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I'm afraid I do find the pure numbers irrelevant, @Wigwam. May's stupidly called General Election had a higher Electorate, as did this year's EU elections.

The turnout and percentages are the important things, as I've said more than once. The pure numbers tell the story of a growing electorate, while the turnout and percentages tell the story of how that electorate divides.

As previously said, the leave vote was 37.48% of the electorate. Not a majority of the electorate.

I am worried that one of my heart medications is already starting to become hard to get.

I'm pleased you find our debates on this respectful and well argued (on your side as well). You remind me of a guy I did politics with at college, Ricky, in the middle of the of the '80s miners strike.

Feck, did we disagree and dominate the class, but we always played the ball and not the person, which is what we're (hopefully) doing.

paul-mccartney-thumb_gif

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"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty

 

The Beatles Non-Canon Poll List

12 September 2019
12.11am
Wigwam
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I can see you find the numbers irrelevant......I still find and feel that the greatest total numbers in terms of the exercising of a democratic vote in the UK's history is a landmark worthy of recognition ......

I didn't study politics in any form other than a one year A level in British Constitution that I slipped into my upper 6th years purely because, (if I'm honest) an overwhelming interest in the girls from a neighbouring girl's school joined in the course that year.

Any interest in politics has been fairly recent......It stems mostly from an infuriation with the over-bearing and basically unaccountable EU.....and its direction towards political union....Oh...... and a detestation for Political Correctness 

You and I, as we regularly prove..... will never see eye-to-eye......But that's fine.

I put in my 'PS.' because in an earlier post you said something along the lines of: 'being free to avoid getting into a pissing contest with me'.....And that's not my objective.

All I want to achieve is the voicing of the unpopular opinions I believe in.

I'm a mostly un-reconstructed man and I refuse to submit myself to the current pernicious pressure to conform to the whims and language that stems from the PC re-education boot camps......

I'm hoping that at the end of year awards there's a vote for most unpopular poster......I feel I'm in with a fighting chance......

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QuarryMan
12 September 2019
12.34am
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The Hole Got Fixed
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There's a category for 'poster most likely to make you go hmmm...'
But in all honestly, even though I don't have enough time this week to make posts longer than a few sentences, I do enjoy reading everyone's posts in these threads. It's always intriguing to see different ideas, even if I can't really respond to them.
Best thing is, everything is staying respectful - and as the reigning ' poster who stays most respectful even through disagreements', that makes me particularly happy to see.

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Oh, by the way, this post was made by The Hole Got Fixed!

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12 September 2019
8.15pm
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QuarryMan
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I think we all admire your conviction, even if we tend to disagree with you, @Wigwam . Unpopular opinions do not an unpopular Bibler make - hateful opinions might, but to my knowledge I've never seen any in this thread or others, to all of our credit. 

EDIT: also, these conversations would be awfully dull without anybody to provide an opposing viewpoint. 

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Tall, dark-haired QuarryMan likes basketball, music, and naturally, boys. He was a valuable participant on the track team. He is one of Freeport's great contributors to the recording world. As for the immediate future, QuarryMan has no plans, but will take life as it comes. 

 

12 September 2019
8.23pm
Wigwam
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I am at your service in that regard Sir.........Wigwam...the in tents one!

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13 September 2019
5.00pm
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QuarryMan
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Wigwam...the in tents one!

How long have you been waiting to crack that one a-hard-days-night-john-6?

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Tall, dark-haired QuarryMan likes basketball, music, and naturally, boys. He was a valuable participant on the track team. He is one of Freeport's great contributors to the recording world. As for the immediate future, QuarryMan has no plans, but will take life as it comes. 

 

13 September 2019
7.14pm
Wigwam
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QuarryMan said

Wigwam...the in tents one!

How long have you been waiting to crack that one a-hard-days-night-john-6?

  

A while .....It was tough to pitch......I had a portent I'd be taken down a peg to two......

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