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I read the news today (oh boy) - Current world events
5 September 2019
9.45am
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50yearslate
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@Wigwam I’m sorry but I just really, really don’t understand. What is so repulsive about referring to somebody with their preferred pronouns, even if those pronouns don’t necessarily ‘match’ their biological sex? What gives you the right to choose their label? It’s their identity, not yours, and it’s really not that hard to add on a little ‘s’ or replace it with a simple ‘they.’ Surely that teensy-weensy amount of effort is worth it to respect someone’s identity?

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ScarlettFieldsForever

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5 September 2019
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Beatlebug
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The way I read it, @Wigwam doesn't have a problem using someone's preferred pronouns as long as it makes basic practical sense to do so. Now, your sense might differ from his, but he seems perfectly reasonable to me -- especially for an old geezer. a-hard-days-night-george-10

Also, I believe most intersex people identify as either a he or a she.

Also also, it's their identity, and what words other people use to describe someone (usually based on subconscious cues) is not their identity, it's words other people use to describe them. I understand that some words feel more accurate than others, but you have to make it so that other people also think it's accurate if you want to move through life being described accurately without bother.

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Wigwam

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5 September 2019
10.52am
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Tony Japanese
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Ron Nasty said
My MP (who is also a Government minister) has resigned both roles (though it's unclear if it's with immediate effect or at the election) over his differences with Prime Minister Boris Johnson over his handling of Brexit.

My MP is Jo Johnson, brother of Boris:

In recent weeks I've been torn between family loyalty and the national interest - it's an unresolvable tension & time for others to take on my roles as MP & Minister. #overandout

Ouch!!!

  

If you're an MP, national interest should always be more important than family loyalty - particularly when you're making decisions that affect the people. You're not being asked to decide whether or not to buy Boris a Tesco Meal Deal.

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The Hole Got Fixed
5 September 2019
4.51pm
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Kaniffee
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So many people try to delegitimize trans people by reducing gender to sex.  By saying there are only 2 biological sexes.  But biology isn't as simple as this argument pretends it is.  Intersex people in many different variations exist.  There are not just 2 sexes.

Just because most Intersex people choose a side doesn't negate the fact that they're literally being pressured to choose a side to the point of genital mutilation in some cases. I'm sure many Intersex people happily identify as a man or a woman, but I wonder how many might just identify as somewhere in-between if it was remotely socially acceptable to do so.

Another way to think about this.  Intersex people make up 1.5% of the population so more than 1 in 100 people are intersex.  That means we pretty much all know someone who's intersex, but most of us probably haven't known for sure that someone we know is Intersex.  A part of this probably comes from people not even knowing they're intersex. I think if it was more socially acceptable, people might be more open about it though too.

If biological sex is this complicated, why not gender too?

As for hermaphrodite, the primary reason not to use it is that it's scientifically inaccurate. It is also considered offensive in part because it's inaccurate.  Accepted language changes overtime. That's how it goes.

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50yearslate, The Hole Got Fixed, Dark Overlord, ScarlettFieldsForever, QuarryMan

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5 September 2019
5.38pm
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Dark Overlord
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1. Sex is like stereo, there are infinite possibilities but only 2 sexes. An intersex individual is biologically both a man and a woman in the same way that something panned to the center is in both the left and right channels.

2. I think the word you're looking for is removal, as genital mutilation suggests either circumcision or FGM, a practice that is typically done to all infants where regularly performed.

3. True but most intersex people are more male or more female so the number of purely intersex individuals (those who are equally male and female) would be much less.

Still, i agree with the basic point that we should respect people's pronouns and anyone who intentionally uses the wrong pronouns to refer to anyone (trans or cis) is an asshole.

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Beatlebug

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5 September 2019
6.30pm
Wigwam
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50yearslate said
@Wigwam I’m sorry but I just really, really don’t understand. What is so repulsive about referring to somebody with their preferred pronouns, even if those pronouns don’t necessarily ‘match’ their biological sex? What gives you the right to choose their label? It’s their identity, not yours, and it’s really not that hard to add on a little ‘s’ or replace it with a simple ‘they.’ Surely that teensy-weensy amount of effort is worth it to respect someone’s identity?

  

Words have a meaning.....and nuance, we both understand that.

For instance I understand from its context that you're not using 'sorry' in you're opening sentence in the sense that you're feeling any distress, or sympathy with someone else's misfortune'.

I understand that neither are you feeling genuine regret or penitence over something you've done.

You're saying politely that you are sorry that you're finding what I'm saying confusing, or frankly daft. Now that's maybe my fault in that I haven't been clear enough in explaining myself....Or your fault in that you can't understand the point of principle I find so important because you find it either trivial or lacking in empathy.

We must agree to differ.....More on this later.

But then you introduce a strange and weighted adjective .......'repulsive'.....Where does that come from? It certainly has no relationship to anything I've said. It comes from you and you choses it for your own reasons.

Coming from an unprotected minority group myself, namely:......a straight, pale, stale, male ......over my years I've come to terms with the changes that appear in language....That's if 'wicked' and 'bad' still mean 'good' these days......"Gee-wiz'...... Why not?..... 'Awful' used to mean 'good' too!.....And for information: 'gee-wiz' came about in my lifetime as a polite alternative to using 'Jesus' as an exclamation. I've accepted we've lost the word 'gay' to describe something bright and colourful........

I can go along with your reasons for why 'hermaphrodite' is an outdated term....Sadly there's not much knowledge of, or love for the 'Erotes' these days.......

As for the rest?.... Perhaps if you can face the truth ......watch this........At least you'll understand my resistance to denying reality.

 

 

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Beatlebug
5 September 2019
6.34pm
Wigwam
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Dark Overlord said
 

Still, i agree with the basic point that we should respect people's pronouns and anyone who intentionally uses the wrong pronouns to refer to anyone (trans or cis) is an asshole.

  

Then I'm an arsshole......

But I'm a 'happy with myself asshole'.

'No one is more hated than he who speaks the truth'..Plato

5 September 2019
6.43pm
Wigwam
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Beatlebug said
The way I read it, @Wigwam doesn't have a problem using someone's preferred pronouns as long as it makes basic practical sense to do so. Now, your sense might differ from his, but he seems perfectly reasonable to me -- especially for an old geezer. a-hard-days-night-george-10

Also, I believe most intersex people identify as either a he or a she.

Also also, it's their identity, and what words other people use to describe someone (usually based on subconscious cues) is not their identity, it's words other people use to describe them. I understand that some words feel more accurate than others, but you have to make it so that other people also think it's accurate if you want to move through life being described accurately without bother.

  

Well said......Thank you for understanding me.

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Beatlebug
5 September 2019
7.42pm
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Beatlebug
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Wigwam said

Then I'm an arsshole......

But I'm a 'happy with myself asshole'.
 

I guess I am too. ahdn_paul_01

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Wigwam

It verges from the sublime to the ridiculote

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5 September 2019
8.05pm
Wigwam
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A

Beatlebug said

Wigwam said

Then I'm an arsshole......

But I'm a 'happy with myself asshole'.

 

I guess I am too. ahdn_paul_01

  

Assholes are like opinions.......everybody has one.

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5 September 2019
8.13pm
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50yearslate
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a-hard-days-night-ringo-12that's an interesting simile... although it is true...

Should we perhaps move any further conversation on the subject to Philosophy?

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Beatlebug

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5 September 2019
8.16pm
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Beatlebug
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Wigwam said
Assholes are like opinions.......everybody has one.  

...and they all stink a-hard-days-night-john-6

(I heard that somewhere, can't remember what it was from)

It verges from the sublime to the ridiculote

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5 September 2019
8.27pm
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Ron Nasty
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Extremely sad, devastated, distraught at the news that Nicki Minaj is retiring from the music industry to concentrate on her family.

If this tragic news proves true, it's a dreadful loss to the world of music given she's only 36.

a-hard-days-night-paul-10

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7 September 2019
6.35pm
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Ron Nasty
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Things aren't getting any better for Boris after a disastrous first week of Parliament being back.

Now his Work and Pensions Minister, Amber Rudd, has resigned from Cabinet and has surrendered the party whip - leaving the party to sit as an Independent Conservative, citing the lack of evidence that Boris is making any attempt to get a deal with Europe and the sacking from the party of the 21 Conservative MPs who voted against the Government this week.

Her criticism was stinging in her letter to the PM:

...I no longer believe leaving with a deal is the government's main objective...

I must also address the assault on decency and democracy that took place last week when you sacked 21 talented, loyal One Nation Conservatives.

This short sighted culling of my colleagues has stripped the Party of broad-minded and dedicated Conservative MPs. I cannot support this act of political vandalism.

This time last week the Conservatives had a working majority of one with DUP votes, and now it's minus 45.

At least six other Ministers are said to be unhappy with the events of the last week, with at least one of them considering quitting.

Boris' masterplan is falling apart around him, as is his party. I said of May in her last weeks as PM that she was in office but not in power. Boris is in an even weaker position after just a week.

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7 September 2019
7.13pm
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Yes certainly bad news piled onto more bad news......From my perspective

I'm now beginning to fear for the existence of the Conservative party......Unless I for instance could be sure that whoever stands under their banner at the next election is 100% committed to leaving, deal or not......I'd vote for the Brexit party. Everyone......Everyone I speak to here or on the phone in the UK feels the same frustration with our politicians...And come what may want to send them a lesson.

Having said that ......there must be a good 25% of the country that would happily vote for Corbyn.......???????????????????

When asked if she would abide by the Labour manifesto that she helped draw up....(which in 2017 said it would support the result of the referendum and leave under Article 50 )....Emily Thornberry the Shadow Foreign Secretary and therefore number 3 in the Shadow cabinet equivocated, and explained the Labour master plan:

Piously she said: 'She would do her very best negations to get the very best deal......"

She was then asked..... 'Having done so would she still vote for her personal position of remain?'

Unabashed 'Yes' she said, 'she would.'

When the inconsistency was put to her that, 'She would then be negotiating a great deal, put her own very best deal to the House and then vote it down!'

.........she looked flummoxed as though she hadn't actually thought of that?

After the gasps and sarcastic laughter of the BBC Question Time audience subsided.....

It was further explained to her how ridiculous it would be from the EU point of view.....She would in fact be asking and negotiating for a great deal with them in the full knowledge ......that if she if she was actually given one she would be voting against it.........Some negotiating stance!!  Some Shadow Foreign Secretary!!

Some master plan!

7 September 2019
7.28pm
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PS my postal vote acceptance came through very quickly......

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Beatlebug
7 September 2019
8.42pm
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QuarryMan
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I'm not huge on Labour's Brexit policy anyway, but I don't think Thornberry's stance is that contradictory. It basically comes down to this - If Brexit absolutely has to happen, then we should have the best possible deal, but if there is the possibility to stop it, then we should. 

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7 September 2019
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Ron Nasty
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I don't see the contradiction either, @QuarryMan. The bottom line on Labour's position should they find themselves negotiating a deal is that they will put it to a referendum with the choice being between the deal and remaining.

Nor is it likely that Thornberry would actually be that involved in the negotiations as Labour's shadow Brexit Minister is Keir Starmer.

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7 September 2019
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QuarryMan said
I'm not huge on Labour's Brexit policy anyway, but I don't think Thornberry's stance is that contradictory. It basically comes down to this - If Brexit absolutely has to happen, then we should have the best possible deal, but if there is the possibility to stop it, then we should. 

  Ron Nasty saidI don't see the contradiction either, @QuarryMan. The bottom line on Labour's position should they find themselves negotiating a deal is that they will put it to a referendum with the choice being between the deal and remaining.Nor is it likely that Thornberry would actually be that involved in the negotiations as Labour's shadow Brexit Minister is Keir Starmer.

  

The problems are obvious.....To me at least.....

1. QM.....Is it likely that a negotiation between someone who has no intention of selling you a car and someone who has no intention of buying the car....... Will either go well? or be a pointless exercise?...

2.RN see my answer to QM above in terms of contradiction......

I'll add though..... if you are intending, as you say to put another referendum to the people giving them a binary choice between a deal or remaining.....But  you are in favour of remaining. How likely are you resist the obvious temptation to make the deal so unpalatable that even the most  ardent Brexiteers would prefer to vote to remain?? 

And to reply to your last point.......A weak one if I may say.....Even allowing for 'Primus Inter-Pares' there remains a pecking order to the make-up of the Executive 

The Foreign Secretary...is the number 3 in the British Government behind only the PM and Chancellor of the Exchequer in order of seniority.......He/She is obliged to be a Privy Councillor, Cabinet member and member of the National Security Council and therefore a very senior voice out-ranking all other Ministers.....Including the Home Secretary..(Diane Abbot God help us)... and all other members of the Executive including Keir Starmer who would only have responsibility for negotiating implementing the policy agreed by the full cabinet. .....AS FS Emily Thornberry would have a significant role in establishing the Government's negotiating stance....(Such as it would be).... Like all Ministers, being bound by collective responsibility ensures her active participation and input is in her own interests.

To insinuate anything less is misleading and ingenuous......  

8 September 2019
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QuarryMan
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Emily Thornberry herself would not be deciding the result of a second referendum, though. She'd vote to remain, but it would make no sense for her not to put effort into a deal just because of that, because it's highly likely that the country would vote to leave anyway. The metaphor of the car selling would work more like this: the buyer doesn't want a car while their family do, so if they are going to buy a car, they might as well buy the most tolerable/best car they can. 

Tall, dark-haired QuarryMan likes basketball, music, and naturally, boys. He was a valuable participant on the track team. He is one of Freeport's great contributors to the recording world. As for the immediate future, QuarryMan has no plans, but will take life as it comes. 

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