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I read the news today (oh boy) - Current world events
4 September 2019
12.18am
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The Hole Got Fixed
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Wigwam said
It would be wonderful if the lesson this teaches us was truly understood by more of the UK's and the US' youth and some on this board......It demonstrates to our youth how precious democracy actually is to the young of Hong Kong......

I feel I'm often written off here at least in part because I'm from an older generation. My concerns for their generation don't signify.....But take a look at the barricades  .... it's not old farts of my age on the streets in Hong Kong it's young men and women who are fighting for self-determination and resisting bravely however they can what they know would be the death knell of socialism/communism on their wishes, aspirations.......and happiness. 

 

I wish the woke would wake-up.

  

I would argue the woke have awoken. Being one of these 'woke' people, I would argue that many people my age have a strong viewpoint. 

It can be seen in the latest poll: https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfr.....kers_w.pdf

The young generation are taking action all over the world. In Hong Kong, the youth are protesting for democracy. In other places, we're protesting for climate action. I will be in a few weeks. We have awoken and we are fighting for what we believe in.

Democracy is important, I fully agree. But when it toys with our future, we get angry and take action.

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4 September 2019
1.50am
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The Hole Got Fixed said

Wigwam said

It would be wonderful if the lesson this teaches us was truly understood by more of the UK's and the US' youth and some on this board......It demonstrates to our youth how precious democracy actually is to the young of Hong Kong......

I feel I'm often written off here at least in part because I'm from an older generation. My concerns for their generation don't signify.....But take a look at the barricades  .... it's not old farts of my age on the streets in Hong Kong it's young men and women who are fighting for self-determination and resisting bravely however they can what they know would be the death knell of socialism/communism on their wishes, aspirations.......and happiness. 

 

I wish the woke would wake-up.

  

I would argue the woke have awoken. Being one of these 'woke' people, I would argue that many people my age have a strong viewpoint. 

It can be seen in the latest poll: https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfr.....kers_w.pdf

The young generation are taking action all over the world. In Hong Kong, the youth are protesting for democracy. In other places, we're protesting for climate action. I will be in a few weeks. We have awoken and we are fighting for what we believe in.

Democracy is important, I fully agree. But when it toys with our future, we get angry and take action.

  

Good, that's good......

Maybe I have misunderstood the seeming clamour amongst the 'woke'...to divest themselves of the essential freedoms that their near and far ancestors fought and often died for...And they just see socialism as 'free stuff'....And freedom of speech.....? as speech they select.... for themselves and the unwoke to abide by........Otherwise they feel justified and virtuous in shutting speech down.......(See Berkley's full circle).

 

'Democracy is important, I fully agree. But when it toys with our future, we get angry and take action.'......

..............That's precisely what democracy offers you through the ballot box and freedom of speech......and peaceful demonstration. 

We agree I think......That's great..... so either I'm woke too.....or we're both unwoke.... ??

Whatever ....Cheers.

4 September 2019
4.23am
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a-hard-days-night-ringo-8To be fair, even though I disagree, I don't blame you for having that viewpoint, since that's certainly the narrative about young people being pushed by much of the media. 

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4 September 2019
4.45am
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ScarlettFieldsForever
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Hong Kong leader Carrie Lam finally declares the withdrawal of the extradition bill which sparked the continuing protests in the past few months.

At least the persistence of HK citizens has reached temporary victory. But too late, too late. If the government had made this decision in June, that would’ve put an end to the movement; now they have caused blood and hatred, and residents won’t stop their parade unless all their demands are met. I will definitely support their actions, but I’m still unsure of where this is going. Calling for withdrawal of a bill isn’t too harmful to the government, general elections? Beijing won’t allow this peacemaking.

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4 September 2019
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QuarryMan said
a-hard-days-night-ringo-8To be fair, even though I disagree, I don't blame you for having that viewpoint, since that's certainly the narrative about young people being pushed by much of the media. 

  

Not being nasty.....But I get some of my viewpoint from posting in various threads here over the last couple of years and more recently. I'm not saying I'm right or wrong to hold my views.

But you're right some of the stuff I see on TV and on Youtube informs my thinking........I guess we all get manipulated a bit.....Whatever..... our age and life experience.

Although I think I'm less susceptible that I once was to influence........

 

I recall with shame......as a young man I held out against stupid platform shoes for months and months........In the end I caved to the peer pressure and girls towering over me........About 2 weeks later platforms went out of fashion....If only I held my ground.....I'd have been so proud of being true to myself.

 

Paul said it cleverly about influence.....We can change our clothes.....We shouldn't think it changes what we are.......The real us is vintage clothes hanging on a rack.

'Don't live in the past
Don't hold on to something that's changing fast
What we are, is what we are and what we wear
Is vintage clothes, vintage clothes, vintage clothes
We jump up for joy
Who cares if we look like a girl or boy
What we are, is what we are and what we wear
Is vintage clothes, vintage clothes, vintage clothes
A little more, a little tall
Check the rack
What went out, is coming back'
 

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4 September 2019
6.29pm
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Ron Nasty
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@Wigwam said

QuarryMan said

a-hard-days-night-ringo-8To be fair, even though I disagree, I don't blame you for having that viewpoint, since that's certainly the narrative about young people being pushed by much of the media. 

Not being nasty.....But I get some of my viewpoint from posting in various threads here over the last couple of years and more recently. I'm not saying I'm right or wrong to hold my views.

But you're right some of the stuff I see on TV and on Youtube informs my thinking........I guess we all get manipulated a bit.....Whatever..... our age and life experience.

Although I think I'm less susceptible that I once was to influence........

Not sure if I'm misunderstanding, but I find nearly all the young people impressive and thought provoking, even those I disagree with on issues such as Beatlebug.

I'd say I get some of my viewpoint on the younger generation from posts on here, and am rarely disappointed by how engaged our youngsters are, and how they are increasingly challenging the failed leaders of my generation on issues like climate change and inequality.

The young people here make me more hopeful for tomorrow.

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4 September 2019
6.59pm
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I suppose it's the ridiculous extremes I come across on youtube and elsewhere.....The gender pronouns.....the arm waving because clapping is err.....unwoke ....stuff like this........

Just a quick example......I saw it and wished I'd had a mental scrubbing brush......

The young of Hong Kong though, they give me hope.......And my son and his friends.......And the young'uns  on here too.....United as we are by the Beatles.

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4 September 2019
8.22pm
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Wigwam said
I suppose it's the ridiculous extremes I come across on youtube and elsewhere.....The gender pronouns.....the arm waving because clapping is err.....unwoke ....stuff like this........

<snip>

So are you the type to call someone based on what their birth certificate originally said or what they'd like you to call them by? Because I care about others feelings and if it helps their mental health if I call them something with a different set of sounds, then I will. It takes no extra effort on my part and it makes their life better.

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4 September 2019
10.48pm
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The Hole Got Fixed said

Wigwam said

I suppose it's the ridiculous extremes I come across on youtube and elsewhere.....The gender pronouns.....the arm waving because clapping is err.....unwoke ....stuff like this........

 

So are you the type to call someone based on what their birth certificate originally said or what they'd like you to call them by? Because I care about others feelings and if it helps their mental health if I call them something with a different set of sounds, then I will. It takes no extra effort on my part and it makes their life better.

  

Yes there are only two biological sexes........Now if some bloke asks me to call him  Mable I would. Why not? But if someone tells me I must call a him 'she' and uses some form of coercion or emotional blackmail as you describe to compel me...Sorry....I won't and we can wave goodbye......

I won't bow to PC pressure or be told what to do....If that's Ok with you? The woke are tolerant aren't they? They can respect other people's views can't they? If you're woke you really ought to respect mine.

I'm a smelly, unwashed, Walmart shopping, Trump, Farage and Boris supporter......And you can write-me-off as such if that helps......I don't virtue signal....... or feel have to pander to anyone.

'Some may say......That I'm no good....

..maybe I agree.

Take a look,

Walk away...That's alright by me......'

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4 September 2019
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Lmao Intersex people exist so you can shut up about biology until you actually know what you're talking about.

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4 September 2019
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Kaniffee said
Lmao Intersex people exist so you can shut up about biology until you actually know what you're talking about.

  

I didn't feel the need to mention hermaphrodites as they are only about 1.5 % of births.......... They usually come down one way or the other after puberty.....What side they decide to bat for in that case I'd certainly go along with.......

5 September 2019
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Wigwam said

The Hole Got Fixed said

Wigwam said

I suppose it's the ridiculous extremes I come across on youtube and elsewhere.....The gender pronouns.....the arm waving because clapping is err.....unwoke ....stuff like this........

 

So are you the type to call someone based on what their birth certificate originally said or what they'd like you to call them by? Because I care about others feelings and if it helps their mental health if I call them something with a different set of sounds, then I will. It takes no extra effort on my part and it makes their life better.

  

Yes there are only two biological sexes........Now if some bloke asks me to call him  Mable I would. Why not? But if someone tells me I must call a him 'she' and uses some form of coercion or emotional blackmail as you describe to compel me...Sorry....I won't and we can wave goodbye......

I won't bow to PC pressure or be told what to do....If that's Ok with you? The woke are tolerant aren't they? They can respect other people's views can't they? If you're woke you really ought to respect mine.

Yes, we are tolerant, and I'm respecting your view, as you and your brain are the only tools that craft your view. However, I'm simply stating that views similar to yours, even if it's something small like your attitude of 'sorry I won't' have a high correlation to the insanely high suicide rate of the group of people that don't fall into the handy labels or are transgender. In fact, almost all surveys find that more than a third of all trans people (and I'd assume non-binary people would be around the same if not higher) have attempted suicide. PC (something we've discussed in great detail over a number of classes in English class recently) is in place for a reason - to protect people in a minority.

So I'm sorry, if I have to choose between respecting your view or someone else's life, it's someone's life all the way, as I'm sure you'd agree that someone's life is always more important than a view - if it came to my view or someone's life I wouldn't care about my view.

I'm a smelly, unwashed, Walmart shopping, Trump, Farage and Boris supporter......

That's nice?

This might help, considering your situation: https://www.walmart.com/browse.....81_4735846

And you can write-me-off as such if that helps......I don't virtue signal....... or feel have to pander to anyone.

'Some may say......That I'm no good....

..maybe I agree.

Take a look,

Walk away...That's alright by me......'

I'm not writing you off... and I hope it's not coming across like that.

 

Wigwam said 
I didn't feel the need to mention hermaphrodites as they are only about 1.5 % of births.......... They usually come down one way or the other after puberty.....What side they decide to bat for in that case I'd certainly go along with.......

Using the stat I found that 1.7% of the population are intersex, and there are 7.7 billion people in the world right now, that means that...

Roughly the population of Mexico (or Japan) is the same number of people in the world that are intersex. Are you going to write off 131,000,000 people?

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5 September 2019
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Wigwam said

The Hole Got Fixed said

Wigwam said

I suppose it's the ridiculous extremes I come across on youtube and elsewhere.....The gender pronouns.....the arm waving because clapping is err.....unwoke ....stuff like this........

 

So are you the type to call someone based on what their birth certificate originally said or what they'd like you to call them by? Because I care about others feelings and if it helps their mental health if I call them something with a different set of sounds, then I will. It takes no extra effort on my part and it makes their life better.

  

Yes there are only two biological sexes........Now if some bloke asks me to call him  Mable I would. Why not? But if someone tells me I must call a him 'she' and uses some form of coercion or emotional blackmail as you describe to compel me...Sorry....I won't and we can wave goodbye......

Explain “must”—because if people you’re talking about won’t beat you up or throw you into jail, I don’t see how they can suppress you, and you’re already assuming they has the power to do that. But 95% of them don’t. Instead, they’re those who face physical and mental abuse every day. See, that’s why this whole argument about PC appears ridiculous to me: without its shelter, the weaker are facing actual threat, while some arrogant blokes just scream about “threat to freedom” which, most of the time, doesn’t exist.

I won't bow to PC pressure or be told what to do....If that's Ok with you? The woke are tolerant aren't they? They can respect other people's views can't they? If you're woke you really ought to respect mine.

If one refuses to pay due respect to others while asks for other people’s respect, that’s no courage. That’s selfishness and stupidity.

I'm a smelly, unwashed, Walmart shopping, Trump, Farage and Boris supporter......And you can write-me-off as such if that helps......I don't virtue signal....... or feel have to pander to anyone.

Well since this isn’t the first time these arguments happen in this thread, I won’t be bold enough to predict you’d like to understand why some of us regard them as “smelly”. Still, I have hope in communication.

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5 September 2019
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The Hole Got Fixed said

Wigwam said

The Hole Got Fixed said

So are you the type to call someone based on what their birth certificate originally said or what they'd like you to call them by? Because I care about others feelings and if it helps their mental health if I call them something with a different set of sounds, then I will. It takes no extra effort on my part and it makes their life better.

  

Yes there are only two biological sexes........Now if some bloke asks me to call him  Mable I would. Why not? But if someone tells me I must call a him 'she' and uses some form of coercion or emotional blackmail as you describe to compel me...Sorry....I won't and we can wave goodbye......

I won't bow to PC pressure or be told what to do....If that's Ok with you? The woke are tolerant aren't they? They can respect other people's views can't they? If you're woke you really ought to respect mine.

Yes, we are tolerant, and I'm respecting your view, as you and your brain are the only tools that craft your view. However, I'm simply stating that views similar to yours, even if it's something small like your attitude of 'sorry I won't' have a high correlation to the insanely high suicide rate of the group of people that don't fall into the handy labels or are transgender. In fact, almost all surveys find that more than a third of all trans people (and I'd assume non-binary people would be around the same if not higher) have attempted suicide. PC (something we've discussed in great detail over a number of classes in English class recently) is in place for a reason - to protect people in a minority.

So I'm sorry, if I have to choose between respecting your view or someone else's life, it's someone's life all the way, as I'm sure you'd agree that someone's life is always more important than a view - if it came to my view or someone's life I wouldn't care about my view.

A little over dramatic... but hey!

 

The suicide rate is high amongst trans communities .......Although it's doesn't get a direct mention on wiki perhaps it should.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide

But mental disorders like depression, schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder, anxiety disorders, substance abuse, alcoholism, financial difficulties, gambling, medical conditions, bullying, prejudice, those who have experienced childhood sexual abuse etc overlap the genders and can all apply to anyone around you whatever their sexual orientation.

Life is potentially shit sometimes for everyone.... Particularly western men who commit suicide 3 or 4 times mores so than western women.

Of course life is important and if it could be shown that my acquiesce in calling a 'he/him' a 'her/she' would mean so much to a complete stranger that it would save his/her life then I'm all for it.

But I'm saying kindness and good manners should come from the heart.....not out of an arbitrary insistence of compliance to some drummed up PC insanity.

I'm against pandering to, let's say, a white male who identifies and insist on being addressed to as a half-black half-native American trans woman......I'd rather top myself quite honestly!!!

I'm a smelly, unwashed, Walmart shopping, Trump, Farage and Boris supporter......

 

That's nice?

This might help, considering your situation: https://www.walmart.com/browse.....81_4735846

The self description isn't actually 100% accurate ......You can amuse yourself deciding which parts are accurate  and which parts are not.

Did you study sarcasm at that school you go to........? If you did...... I'd ask for your money back!

 

Wigwam said 

I didn't feel the need to mention hermaphrodites as they are only about 1.5 % of births.......... They usually come down one way or the other after puberty.....What side they decide to bat for in that case I'd certainly go along with.......

 

You say.......

Using the stat I found that 1.7% of the population are intersex, and there are 7.7 billion people in the world right now, that means that...

Roughly the population of Mexico (or Japan) is the same number of people in the world that are intersex. Are you going to write off 131,000,000 people?

  

That's not what I said at all.... Have another read. 

 

Cheers 

5 September 2019
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Wigwam said

ScarlettFieldsForever said

Explain “must”—because if people you’re talking about won’t beat you up or throw you into jail, I don’t see how they can suppress you, and you’re already assuming they has the power to do that. But 95% of them don’t. Instead, they’re those who face physical and mental abuse every day. See, that’s why this whole argument about PC appears ridiculous to me: without its shelter, the weaker are facing actual threat, while some arrogant blokes just scream about “threat to freedom” which, most of the time, doesn’t exist.

If one refuses to pay due respect to others while asks for other people’s respect, that’s no courage. That’s selfishness and stupidity.

Well since this isn’t the first time these arguments happen in this thread, I won’t be bold enough to predict you’d like to understand why some of us regard them as “smelly”. Still, I have hope in communication.

  

The first 2 sections can be answered  by just displaying good manners.....No need for any compulsion, (if you're saying that PC doctrines don't carry power well we live in different worlds) .....For more see my reply to THGFixed....

As for the smelly bit.....??

i'd' like to make a point on this......

It's struck me that every, for want of a better description, 'sub-set' in the US has an aura of PC protection......Some sneaky swines try to falsely gather that protection around them.......Elizabeth Warren comes to mind....Though I know people who live in 'wigwams' shouldn't throw cultural appropriation stones........But consider that there's a reason Beto didn't call himself Fritz O'Rourke (sp).

It seems to me the one section of US society that can be ridiculed mercilessly by the woke on the 'woke' channels are poor Americans.....'they cling to their bibles and guns'.....eat at MacDonalds, shop in Walmart as Peter Struek (sp) said, 'you can smell them....Probably a smell that emanates from their baskets of deplorableness.......

I understand exactly why you say so superiorly ...... 'some of us regard them as smelly'.......You're given permission to.  

A tad snobbish....... don't you think?

 

   

5 September 2019
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My MP (who is also a Government minister) has resigned both roles (though it's unclear if it's with immediate effect or at the election) over his differences with Prime Minister Boris Johnson over his handling of Brexit.

My MP is Jo Johnson, brother of Boris:

In recent weeks I've been torn between family loyalty and the national interest - it's an unresolvable tension & time for others to take on my roles as MP & Minister. #overandout

Ouch!!!

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I just need to preface this by saying I won't be on here much for the next week and a bit so if I don't reply it's because I haven't had a chance to do so, or it's been too long to be relevant anymore.

Wigwam said

The Hole Got Fixed said

Wigwam said

The Hole Got Fixed said

So are you the type to call someone based on what their birth certificate originally said or what they'd like you to call them by? Because I care about others feelings and if it helps their mental health if I call them something with a different set of sounds, then I will. It takes no extra effort on my part and it makes their life better.

  

Yes there are only two biological sexes........Now if some bloke asks me to call him  Mable I would. Why not? But if someone tells me I must call a him 'she' and uses some form of coercion or emotional blackmail as you describe to compel me...Sorry....I won't and we can wave goodbye......

I won't bow to PC pressure or be told what to do....If that's Ok with you? The woke are tolerant aren't they? They can respect other people's views can't they? If you're woke you really ought to respect mine.

Yes, we are tolerant, and I'm respecting your view, as you and your brain are the only tools that craft your view. However, I'm simply stating that views similar to yours, even if it's something small like your attitude of 'sorry I won't' have a high correlation to the insanely high suicide rate of the group of people that don't fall into the handy labels or are transgender. In fact, almost all surveys find that more than a third of all trans people (and I'd assume non-binary people would be around the same if not higher) have attempted suicide. PC (something we've discussed in great detail over a number of classes in English class recently) is in place for a reason - to protect people in a minority.

So I'm sorry, if I have to choose between respecting your view or someone else's life, it's someone's life all the way, as I'm sure you'd agree that someone's life is always more important than a view - if it came to my view or someone's life I wouldn't care about my view.

A little over dramatic... but hey!

 

The suicide rate is high amongst trans communities .......Although it's doesn't get a direct mention on wiki perhaps it should.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide

But mental disorders like depression, schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder, anxiety disorders, substance abuse, alcoholism, financial difficulties, gambling, medical conditions, bullying, prejudice, those who have experienced childhood sexual abuse etc overlap the genders and can all apply to anyone around you whatever their sexual orientation.

Life is potentially shit sometimes for everyone.... Particularly western men who commit suicide 3 or 4 times mores so than western women.

Of course life is important and if it could be shown that my acquiesce in calling a 'he/him' a 'her/she' would mean so much to a complete stranger that it would save his/her life then I'm all for it.

But I'm saying kindness and good manners should come from the heart.....not out of an arbitrary insistence of compliance to some drummed up PC insanity.

Wouldn't you like to see these problems minimised or eradicated?

It's mentioned on that wiki page, you must have missed it:

"A number of reviews have found an increased risk of suicide among transgender, lesbian, gay, and bisexual people.[178][179] Among transgender persons rates of attempted suicide are about 40% compared to a general population rate of 5%.[180][181] This is believed to in part be due to social stigmatisation.[182]"

Logically, you calling someone by the pronoun they want will help in a small way to their mental health, something trans/non-binary people very often struggle with. If every single person on the planet did this, logically their mental health would improve as everyone is accepting them for who they are and can get on with their lives. 

On the flip side, if someone is hanging on by a thread, a day where a number of people called them by a different pronoun might just be enough to make them snap - it's small, but people on a thread only need a small prod to tip them over the edge, so...

I'm against pandering to, let's say, a white male who identifies and insist on being addressed to as a half-black half-native American trans woman......I'd rather top myself quite honestly!!!

I think I'll interpret that as a joke...

I'm a smelly, unwashed, Walmart shopping, Trump, Farage and Boris supporter......

 

That's nice?

This might help, considering your situation: https://www.walmart.com/browse/personal-care/bar-soap/1005862_1694681_4735846

The self description isn't actually 100% accurate ......You can amuse yourself deciding which parts are accurate  and which parts are not.

Did you study sarcasm at that school you go to........? If you did...... I'd ask for your money back!

Did you study humour at that school you went to........? If you did...... I'd ask for your money back!

Of course I realised that wasn't true and you were having a laugh, and I thought I'd have a laugh too... goodness me!

Wigwam said 

I didn't feel the need to mention hermaphrodites as they are only about 1.5 % of births.......... They usually come down one way or the other after puberty.....What side they decide to bat for in that case I'd certainly go along with.......

You say.......

Using the stat I found that 1.7% of the population are intersex, and there are 7.7 billion people in the world right now, that means that...

Roughly the population of Mexico (or Japan) is the same number of people in the world that are intersex. Are you going to write off 131,000,000 people? 

That's not what I said at all.... Have another read. 

Cheers 

  

I was referring to the first thing you said: 'I didn't feel the need to mention hermaphrodites as they are only about 1.5 % of births'

But I suppose my question is: if you can support intersex people, why can't you support people who want to be called a specific (or non-specific) pronoun? Personally I can't really see much of a difference and am quite curious as to why you feel the need to, for a lack of a better word, discriminate against those who would like different pronouns?

Oh, by the way, this post was made by The Hole Got Fixed!

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5 September 2019
7.17am
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Kaniffee
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Wigwam said

Kaniffee said

Lmao Intersex people exist so you can shut up about biology until you actually know what you're talking about.

  

I didn't feel the need to mention hermaphrodites as they are only about 1.5 % of births.......... They usually come down one way or the other after puberty.....What side they decide to bat for in that case I'd certainly go along with.......

  

First of all calling them hermaphrodites is inaccurate, and considered an offensive term besides.  That implies they have fully functioning sex organs of both male and female.   No form of being intersex is like this.

There's a lot of ways someone could be intersex.  Having some combination of sex organs that are both male and female is the most obvious way.  And it's the version to be most notable at birth.  But you can also be intersex because of your hormones.  A lot of people are born with male bodies, have female hormones and they generally go through life as a woman.  You can also be intersex from a chromosomal perspective.  People with Klinefelter's syndrome (XXY) are intersex.  Some one who has chromosomes XX but outwardly looks like a man is intersex.

As for the puberty thing.  Do you realize how common it is for someone to not even know they're intersex until later in life?  A lot of times the doctor notices that they're intersex at birth and asks the parent "choose" what sex they want their kid to be.  And then the doctor chops the dick off of a newborn and pretends that isn't genital mutilation.  Intersex people usually suffer trauma and health effects from this kind of thing even though they don't "remember" it.

All this to say Intersex people are pressured by society to choose "one way or another" to try to fit into a box that doesn't match them perfectly, and they suffer a great deal because of this.

Some are even assigned one gender at birth, but later feel more the other gender, and end up thinking they were trans, but they were actually just intersex.  Their parents and doctor just thought it was okay to surgically alter their sex organs without their consent as a newborn. 

The following people thank Kaniffee for this post:

The Hole Got Fixed

Why yes that is a picture of Paul dabbing. Deal with it.

5 September 2019
8.44am
Wigwam
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Kaniffee said

Wigwam said

Kaniffee said

Lmao Intersex people exist so you can shut up about biology until you actually know what you're talking about.

First of all calling them hermaphrodites is inaccurate, and considered an offensive term besides.  That implies they have fully functioning sex organs of both male and female.   No form of being intersex is like this.

There's a lot of ways someone could be intersex.  Having some combination of sex organs that are both male and female is the most obvious way.  And it's the version to be most notable at birth.  But you can also be intersex because of your hormones.  A lot of people are born with male bodies, have female hormones and they generally go through life as a woman.  You can also be intersex from a chromosomal perspective.  People with Klinefelter's syndrome (XXY) are intersex.  Some one who has chromosomes XX but outwardly looks like a man is intersex.

As for the puberty thing.  Do you realize how common it is for someone to not even know they're intersex until later in life?  A lot of times the doctor notices that they're intersex at birth and asks the parent "choose" what sex they want their kid to be.  And then the doctor chops the dick off of a newborn and pretends that isn't genital mutilation.  Intersex people usually suffer trauma and health effects from this kind of thing even though they don't "remember" it.

All this to say Intersex people are pressured by society to choose "one way or another" to try to fit into a box that doesn't match them perfectly, and they suffer a great deal because of this.

Some are even assigned one gender at birth, but later feel more the other gender, and end up thinking they were trans, but they were actually just intersex.  Their parents and doctor just thought it was okay to surgically alter their sex organs without their consent as a newborn. 

  

Well there you go.....Now even the word hermaphrodite is banned........It stigmatises and upsets people.....I confess didn't know that. In fact I didn't know another term even existed......So I used hermaphrodite....and despite that you understood my meaning.

You can see I hope how confusing woke changes in vocabulary are for the non-woke....But perhaps that's at least partially the point...To identify and 'out' the non-woke.

  It seems it's been decided that 'intersex' is what I must now say......Obviously you've studied this a lot more than i have.....However, I'd argue your point goes some way towards proving my point....I don't think I've either written or used the word hermaphrodite since some inconclusive discussions about Jamie Lee Curtis......nearly 30 years back

If someone looks to find offence in the language of others...that they might consider less woke than they are.... they will find offence ........Even though as it's crystal clear here...... no offence was intended.

(If you're American I hope I don't need to  apologise for using the English spelling of offence..... just try not to feel offended).

5 September 2019
9.18am
Wigwam
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The Hole Got Fixed said
I just need to preface this by saying I won't be on here much for the next week and a bit so if I don't reply it's because I haven't had a chance to do so, or it's been too long to be relevant anymore.

 

Logically, you calling someone by the pronoun they want will help in a small way to their mental health, something trans/non-binary people very often struggle with. If every single person on the planet did this, logically their mental health would improve as everyone is accepting them for who they are and can get on with their lives. 

On the flip side, if someone is hanging on by a thread, a day where a number of people called them by a different pronoun might just be enough to make them snap - it's small, but people on a thread only need a small prod to tip them over the edge, so...

I'm against pandering to, let's say, a white male who identifies and insist on being addressed to as a half-black half-native American trans woman......I'd rather top myself quite honestly!!!

I think I'll interpret that as a joke...

That one wasn't a joke......It was a made up example based on similar demands.

Did you study humour at that school you went to........? If you did...... I'd ask for your money back!

No I didn't.......I don't think humour should be studied......In any case neither did you if you're resorting to stealing my material......(I'm joking).

Of course I realised that wasn't true and you were having a laugh, and I thought I'd have a laugh too... goodness me!

I'll take your word on that.

Wigwam said 

I didn't feel the need to mention hermaphrodites as they are only about 1.5 % of births.......... They usually come down one way or the other after puberty.....What side they decide to bat for in that case I'd certainly go along with.......

You say.......

Using the stat I found that 1.7% of the population are intersex, and there are 7.7 billion people in the world right now, that means that...

Roughly the population of Mexico (or Japan) is the same number of people in the world that are intersex. Are you going to write off 131,000,000 people? 

That's not what I said at all.... Have another read. 

Cheers 

  

I was referring to the first thing you said: 'I didn't feel the need to mention hermaphrodites as they are only about 1.5 % of births'

No you said:.....

Using the stat I found that 1.7% of the population are intersex, and there are 7.7 billion people in the world right now, that means that...Roughly the population of Mexico (or Japan) is the same number of people in the world that are intersex. Are you going to write off 131,000,000 people? 

 

I said when it comes to hermaphrodites that they usually decide around puberty what side the want to go into bat for and importantly I'll go along with their decision.......That is not writing them off. That's the opposite to writing them off.

I followed up with the I think reasonable objection that I have a problem going along with those who decide to identify as a sex or ethnicity that they are clearly not....And that I must do so because they say so.........A truth isn't true for me  just because someone says it is their truth.......

 

But I suppose my question is: if you can support intersex people, why can't you support people who want to be called a specific (or non-specific) pronoun? Personally I can't really see much of a difference and am quite curious as to why you feel the need to, for a lack of a better word, discriminate against those who would like different pronouns?

  

You see the irony here is that I probably have had more social interactions with transgender men than everyone on this board put together.......never a problem....Never a harsh word. 

Never a demand made on my behaviour or my choice of vocabulary. (I speak Thai).......No more expectation of politeness than would be the case in any social interaction.......

As I've said all along good manners given and received is all that should be necessary ..........When it comes over to me as demands being upon me to follow someone else's instructions ......... I'm moving on.

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