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I read the news today (oh boy) - Current world events
28 August 2019
4.20am
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Ron Nasty
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So, folks, we're back to the delights of the UK's Brexit farce. I know you've all been missing this comedy of errors during its summer break. ahdn_john_08_gif

Yesterday , opposition leaders against a no-deal Brexit met to discuss their next step, and came up seeming united on trying to take control of the parliamentary timetable again and forcing Boris to ask for an extension, with one of their first steps back to reject the session going into recess for the three-week Party conference season.

Boris struck back today and is announcing he is to prorogue (suspend) this session of Parliament ahead of a Queen's Speech on 14 October. Parliament does need to be prorogued ahead of a Queen's Speech, ending one session with the prorogation and beginning the next session with the Queen's Speech setting out its agenda for the new session. It is also normal for a new PM to want a Queen's Speech.

However, prorogation for a Queen's Speech usually lasts only 4 or 5 days. Boris is to prorogue Parliament from 10 September to 14 October, greatly reducing the opportunities available to those against a no-deal to prevent it happening.

The 2nd to the 9th September is now the very narrow window those opposed to no-deal have to act.

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28 August 2019
4.35pm
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meanmistermustard
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Ron Nasty said
So, folks, we're back to the delights of the UK's Brexit farce. I know you've all been missing this comedy of errors during its summer break. ahdn_john_08_gif

Yesterday , opposition leaders against a no-deal Brexit met to discuss their next step, and came up seeming united on trying to take control of the parliamentary timetable again and forcing Boris to ask for an extension, with one of their first steps back to reject the session going into recess for the three-week Party conference season.

Boris struck back today and is announcing he is to prorogue (suspend) this session of Parliament ahead of a Queen's Speech on 14 October. Parliament does need to be prorogued ahead of a Queen's Speech, ending one session with the prorogation and beginning the next session with the Queen's Speech setting out its agenda for the new session. It is also normal for a new PM to want a Queen's Speech.

However, prorogation for a Queen's Speech usually lasts only 4 or 5 days. Boris is to prorogue Parliament from 10 September to 14 October, greatly reducing the opportunities available to those against a no-deal to prevent it happening.

The 2nd to the 9th September is now the very narrow window those opposed to no-deal have to act.

  

It's a farce on both sides but at least Boris has a plan which would get an outcome instead of one led by Jeremy which seems to have disappeared (everyone votes Boris is bad allowing Jeremy to swoop in like a caped superhero to save the planet; a minor drawback being everyone believes Jeremy would be utterly useless as PM so nobody would go for it).

Does anyone really want another delay? Isn't everyone now so bored of the whole damn mess that armageddon would be more acceptable than another three months of MP's arguing with each other on every detail as they can't even agree if they have the bourbon creams or fruit shortcake biscuits (one or both may never be seen if we leave)?

And before anyone thinks otherwise - I do not agree with Boris and the way forward, I'm just fed up with the incompetence of the entire saga and how inept the opposition is. Their entire plan seems to be, well I have no idea as they cannot agree themselves beyond that.

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Wigwam

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28 August 2019
5.51pm
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It's a joke, it's a middle finger to the British public both for Leave and Remain voters. To not allow debate over one of the most important things to ever happen to the UK is a mockery of democracy. 

It's a wonder there's been no rioting over it yet- politicians don't care if you're walking around a square waving banners with witty slogans and shouting "hey hey, ho, ho Boris Johnson's got to go". With cases like these where they just aren't listening and plainly don't care, physical action needs to be done. The YouGov 'Revoke Article 50 and Remain in the EU' got 6 million signatures- albeit you can't tell if they were all British citizens or UK residents, and it was basically just thrown away by the government who said "way back when in 2016, before a lot of people didn't know they were being lied to or were doing an 'eff you anti-government protest vote', that the majority voted to Leave".

Now that the people who voted for Leave see the consequences of Brexit, with stockpiling of medicine, uncertainty of food importation, the closure of factories (my personal favourite being Sunderland who 61.3% voted to leave when one of the major employers in the area is Nissan who manufacture for export to the EU market- absolute idiots), some of them might have had a change of heart. 

 

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28 August 2019
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It's important here to attribute the blame precisely and in accordance to the facts....... 

The remainers are the ones giving the voters the finger. Indeed their efforts to stop Brexit is a middle finger to democracy itself.....

There was a vote in Parliament of over 500 to 100 to give the people the final say....hold a referendum and to abide by its result......

'Article 50' (that we leave) was also passed in Parliament with similar numbers.

Both major parties and many outliers stood in a subsequent election promising in their manifestos or at the stumps once again to abide by the vote and leave in accordance to how they were instructed by the biggest democratic vote in the UK's history......

What they say and what they do is a different matter......The constant delays have just been flimflam to disguise their objective of overturning a result they didn't expect.

It's clear half of Parliament cynically see themselves as not subject to the people's vote that they instigated....But in-fact above the people; that they are the  voters bosses and not the voters servants.

There will most likely be another general election before 31st of October and the subject at its heart will be Brexit.......

I'm a staunch Brexiteer but I will accept the result of a GE whatever it may be......Simply put I still believe the democratic process is preferable to fighting in the street and the senseless destruction of other people's property.......

 

PS have you ever noticed how similar the two note sections of the Stones' 'Street Fighting Man' is to, 'I am he as you are he' section of 'I Am The Walrus ' ?

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28 August 2019
7.58pm
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RN might enjoy this one

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29 August 2019
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QuarryMan
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Wigwam, there is a difference between trying to stop Brexit altogether and trying to stop a no-deal Brexit. We can debate whether the first one is going against democracy if we like, but that isn't what is happening here. 

Tall, dark-haired QuarryMan likes basketball, music, and naturally, boys. He was a valuable participant on the track team. He is one of Freeport's great contributors to the recording world. As for the immediate future, QuarryMan has no plans, but will take life as it comes. 

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29 August 2019
7.52am
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It's exactly their plan...A blind man can see through their strategy. 

There was a deal on the table........Parliament rejected it once (under the threat of no deal)...twice, (under the increased threat of a no deal)......three times....(practically ensuring that the outcome would be no deal) They don't care because that's the card they are playing....

The remainers have remained remainers and don't want a deal....That leaves the only option are a bad deal or a no deal that's what they've sought to bring about in the hope that the electorate will be cowed into rejecting both......

........Then when their machinations look like coming to fruition they have the bleeding audacity to gasp, clutch at their pearls and have the vituperations.............Screaming Executive betrayal, abuse of power and the destruction of the UK...........

But business has adjusted and just wants to get on with it........

The words 'No deal' in any case is a misnomer as 'No deal' contains deals of many kinds that safeguard vital imports and services......And benefits for the UK too.

They've sought for 3 years now to overturn the first vote in the referendum with a so called, 'people's vote' (they try to avoid the embarrassing admission that would occur if they honestly used the words, '2nd referendum'.. So they call it a 'People's vote' which suggests the first vote was for bloody aardvarks!!! 

The good news is that Boris' hard line is actually much more likely to give us a decent deal one that that MPs will find hard to reject if they ever want to see the inside of Parliament again.

If it happens that a 'no deal' on IMF terms is the result then the world's 5th largest economy will weather the storm and flourish again.

If it leads to another GE....So be it. I'm not 'frit'

 

Personal point......I must stress I have skin in this 'game'.....My spending power has halved in the last few years.....The Thai baht when I retired here to be only a 9 hour flight to my son in Australia 12 years ago was 70 to the pound......Due in large part to all the uncertainty and lack of progress over Brexit it's meant that the Thai baht today stands at around 37 to the pound....I'll get by and I don't regret the referendum vote one bit.

The referendum hurt me personally but it's worth the pain if it means I will finally see the UK free and sovereign again........We'd signed up 40 years ago to an European economic trade area ...Not a political union where we will be subservient to an unelected unaccountable European bureaucracy.......

I grown accustomed to the sight of the removal van outside No 10 Downing St every 5 years.......If we stay in the EU abomination.....It won't matter who we vote for or who our PM is?

Freedom and self determination is worth a bit of pain.......Well to me it is.

29 August 2019
8.19am
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Ron Nasty
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'Tis often the claim made by those who believe in Brexit; however, had the ERG (European Research Group) Tories and the DUP (Democratic Unionist Party) voted for the Theresa May's deal, with those Labour MPs who voted for the deal every time it was put forward, it would have been passed.

The deal was defeated by a combination of leave and remain MPs, and to blame only remain MPs is disingenuous to say the least. There are just as many leavers who don't really want a deal.

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29 August 2019
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QuarryMan
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a-hard-days-night-ringo-8Agreed. Besides, the 'unelected, unaccountable' spiel is as much of a double standard as it's always been. Leavers will harp on about the lack of democracy all day, but will turn a blind eye to the monarchy, the House of Lords, the first past the post system, and the enormous civil service (there are 440,000 civil servants in the UK and 55,000 for the entire EU). 

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29 August 2019
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There are about 20 civil servants that earn as much as our PM........Close to 16,000 EU eurocrats are on Boris' salary.....4000 earn more than Mother Merkel. 

30 August 2019
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Ron Nasty said
'Tis often the claim made by those who believe in Brexit; however, had the ERG (European Research Group) Tories and the DUP (Democratic Unionist Party) voted for the Theresa May's deal, with those Labour MPs who voted for the deal every time it was put forward, it would have been passed.

The deal was defeated by a combination of leave and remain MPs, and to blame only remain MPs is disingenuous to say the least. There are just as many leavers who don't really want a deal.

  

I accept that's a valid criticism. Members of the ERG and other Brexiteers absolutely voted against Mays 'deal'......But for very different reasons to the remainers.....

And 'tis there we find the rub.

The ERG members and others who either voted against the withdrawal deal or abstained openly admitted they would prefer no deal over the deal on the table which tied us into many aspects of the EU without the means of control over our future escape ....In other words in their eyes it was worse than the current position. For many of them the risks/rewards of a no deal was preferable....... However, I feel that even most staunch brexiteers would prefer a fair and mutually beneficial deal over a 'no deal' 

But it's clear they want to leave.......With or without a deal

The remainers voted against May's deal....not because the deal wasn't satisfactory......and not because they wanted a no deal.....They voted against it because they don't want a deal of any sort......They want to remain......The risks of a no deal to them was balanced against a strategy that tactical delay after tactical delay... would lead either through a change of Government/Conservative leadership.....or through a 2nd referendum the possibility of overturning the original majority for leave.

......Though even if the majority for leave was increased in a 2nd referendum the misnamed Liberal Democrats through their new leader have said they wouldn't accept that affirmation as being binding on them.....Their individual conscience trumping the democratic process.....Lovely!

30 August 2019
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QuarryMan
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Wigwam said
There are about 20 civil servants that earn as much as our PM........Close to 16,000 EU eurocrats are on Boris' salary.....4000 earn more than Mother Merkel. 

  

Indeed, but surely the sheer size of Britain's civil service far outweighs that anyway..? 

Tall, dark-haired QuarryMan likes basketball, music, and naturally, boys. He was a valuable participant on the track team. He is one of Freeport's great contributors to the recording world. As for the immediate future, QuarryMan has no plans, but will take life as it comes. 

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30 August 2019
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QuarryMan said

Wigwam said

There are about 20 civil servants that earn as much as our PM........Close to 16,000 EU eurocrats are on Boris' salary.....4000 earn more than Mother Merkel. 

  

Indeed, but surely the sheer size of Britain's civil service far outweighs that anyway..? 

  

I haven't done the maths on that......But....

 

Our civil servants actually actually work for their living.

30 August 2019
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Wigwam said
The ERG members and others who either voted against the withdrawal deal or abstained openly admitted they would prefer no deal over the deal on the table which tied us into many aspects of the EU without the means of control over our future escape ....In other words in their eyes it was worse than the current position. For many of them the risks/rewards of a no deal was preferable....... However, I feel that even most staunch brexiteers would prefer a fair and mutually beneficial deal over a 'no deal' 

But it's clear they want to leave.......With or without a deal

The remainers voted against May's deal....not because the deal wasn't satisfactory......and not because they wanted a no deal.....They voted against it because they don't want a deal of any sort......They want to remain......The risks of a no deal to them was balanced against a strategy that tactical delay after tactical delay... would lead either through a change of Government/Conservative leadership.....or through a 2nd referendum the possibility of overturning the original majority for leave.

  /

Is there anywhere you can link to that indicates why MPs voted against the Brexit Withdrawal Agreement? Whichever way you look at it, an overall majority thought the agreement was a bad idea and I sincerely hope every MP had their own reason for voting the way they did - primarily based on their conscience/the evidence they had to hand.

What I except though, is that some MPs couldn't care less how this affects the general public (for better or worse) and saw this as an opportunity to further their own political careers, by distancing themselves from Theresa May et al. Perhaps you're right in suggesting (some) 'remainers' wish to prevent Brexit from happening at all, and will vote against any deal because they believe the country is better off in the EU. Perhaps you could argue too that some 'leavers' have voted against the deal so far because it the UK is clearly not in the position to dictate terms to the EU, or it doesn't represent their ideal Brexit.

Nobody has come up with a suitable alternative to the deal/no-deal. Nobody has come up with a solution to the Backstop. MPs can bicker all they like, and they will point the finger at everybody but themselves, but if you want a divorce at some point you and your partner have to agree on who's going to get custody of the children. All I want is for the government - all parties - to come together and make a decision that benefits us, not their careers.

30 August 2019
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Accurate sentiments TJ regarding the cynical capricious nature of our MPs..... 

There are still some politicians who vote by their conscience........Though very few however would survive the Party selection process if that intention was ever made explicit.

Resigning the Whip usually spells the end of a political career.....MPs like their jobs. 

The disunity bordering on betrayal displayed in Parliament and May's repeated broken promises/threats/red lines have meant that the EU haven't yet had to negotiate seriously.

It might be too late.....it might not. The EU have shown that can change any rule or convention when it suits.....We'll see. 

30 August 2019
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QuarryMan
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Indeed, but surely the sheer size of Britain's civil service far outweighs that anyway..?  

I haven't done the maths on that......But....

Our civil servants actually actually work for their living.

However much they get paid and however much work they do doesn't change the fact that they aren't democratically elected or accountable to the public. Either you're being a hypocrite, or using the proxy of caring about democracy when you actually care about... salaries? Or productiveness? 

Tall, dark-haired QuarryMan likes basketball, music, and naturally, boys. He was a valuable participant on the track team. He is one of Freeport's great contributors to the recording world. As for the immediate future, QuarryMan has no plans, but will take life as it comes. 

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30 August 2019
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QuarryMan said

Indeed, but surely the sheer size of Britain's civil service far outweighs that anyway..?  

I haven't done the maths on that......But....

Our civil servants actually actually work for their living.

However much they get paid and however much work they do doesn't change the fact that they aren't democratically elected or accountable to the public. Either you're being a hypocrite, or using the proxy of caring about democracy when you actually care about... salaries? Or productiveness? 

  

If hypocrisy was helium QM we'd all speak with funny voices........And 90% of our politicians would float away.

However here I think you're under a misapprehension of what my gripe really is...That may be my fault so let me explain in more detail.....(I can hear the yawns but don't fall asleep...5555!)

Every country has an unelected bureaucracy or civil service that's necessary to implement Government decisions and advise the Executive.....It's true some in the very highest echelons of the civil service have enormous influence.....But their role is restricted to giving their best and impartial advice to whatever the flavour of Government the electorate has put into power.......The civil service are not elected because they have no power. The ministers they serve have the power given to them through the electoral process. The same process can be used to get rid of that minister. That's how I understand democracy.

I don't know but let's assume the EU 'civil service'  behaves similarly.....let's also assume that the numbers are smaller in the EU because each country' has its own civil servants already and therefore their needs are already catered for.

Next it's important to understand that the elected Legislature's role is to hold the elected Executive to account. And at the end of the day if the electorate are unhappy the removal van appears at No 10....The Élysée Palace or wherever Merkel puts her head down.

Now for the next part, sorry QM with your cold and all but I need to post a link on the 'Democratic legitimacy deficit of the EU'....It's just so convoluted to explain but not, I believe in principle to understand: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.....pean_Union

Hopefully you'll see my point.

To lighten the mood here's an old clip of probably, (if we're honest) pointedly the only MEP you and I know the name of..........Until this attack that is....And then we knew two....5555. Now the subject of the attack, (then on a salary greater than Obama's at the time) has long gone......And you know immediately the name of the current President don't you?

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30 August 2019
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I honestly didn't read any of this but that thumbnail is hilarious

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Why yes that is a picture of Paul dabbing. Deal with it.

31 August 2019
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mccartney-shrug_01_gifMy point was that there is a democratic deficit in both the UK and EU systems. 

Tall, dark-haired QuarryMan likes basketball, music, and naturally, boys. He was a valuable participant on the track team. He is one of Freeport's great contributors to the recording world. As for the immediate future, QuarryMan has no plans, but will take life as it comes. 

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31 August 2019
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Such numbness now, a feeling of nothing as we've been through it all before.
About an hour ago there was a mass shooting at an Alabama high school football match, and as I write this there are two shooters driving around Odessa, in West Texas, still shooting, after shooting up a home depot store there.
I say no more, other than for me to have had no reaction upon hearing this news, something has to be wrong in the world.

Oh, by the way, this post was made by The Hole Got Fixed!

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