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I read the news today (oh boy) - Current world events
4 August 2019
3.42am
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Ron Nasty
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A mass shooting in El Paso, Texas takes 20 lives and leaves 26 injured, meaning the death toll could go up. Just hours later, another mass shooting, in Dayton, Ohio, with early reports of up to 10 dead with a shooter still at large.

It is just beyond words.

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4 August 2019
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The Hole Got Fixed
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I've said it before and I'll say it again.
Guns to not protect anyone. Guns can kill people and if any old person can Get them, they do kill.

This is ridiculous. How many more people have to for before some action happens???

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Oh, by the way, this post was made by The Hole Got Fixed!

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4 August 2019
6.53am
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Dark Overlord
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As much as i'd love some stricter gun laws, guns can also be used to protect people and save lives. A perfect example of this is the attempted Dallas courthouse shooting on June 17 of this year where the police prevented a mass shooting by killing the gunman before he could kill anyone else. Had they not shot him, he would've shot many more.

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4 August 2019
6.58am
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The Hole Got Fixed
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A rare example, DO, of guns saving lives.
The vast majority of times, they kill.

Oh, by the way, this post was made by The Hole Got Fixed!

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4 August 2019
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ScarlettFieldsForever
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a-hard-days-night-ringo-8But in that case, guns are used to prevent larger gun violence, which is still a problem that could have been avoided with stricter gun laws and demand for qualification.

The Hole Got Fixed said 

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That pic still sends shivers down my spine...a-hard-days-night-paul-10

A girl with kaleidoscope eyes...

4 August 2019
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20 dead in Texas. How long does this have to continue? 

"It was quite a thriller,

CNN was promoting the killer

His eyes were glazed like he was from Mars

Yesterday he was no one

Today he was a star"

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4 August 2019
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50yearslate
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Dark Overlord said
As much as i'd love some stricter gun laws, guns can also be used to protect people and save lives. A perfect example of this is the attempted Dallas courthouse shooting on June 17 of this year where the police prevented a mass shooting by killing the gunman before he could kill anyone else. Had they not shot him, he would've shot many more.

  

Yeah, and if there were stricter gun laws maybe the gunman wouldn’t have been able to get a gun in the first place, and then no one would be dead ahdn_paul_01

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4 August 2019
11.44am
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Dark Overlord
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Exactly, we need stricter gun regulations to make sure guns don't get in the wrong hands and i hope Donald Trump pays attention and enforces some moderate gun control.

However, what i think @The Hole Got Fixed was suggesting when he said that "guns to not protect anyone" is that we ban guns entirely, which i think would be a terrible idea here in the US. Best case scenario, police are allowed to have firearms but are required to wear non-detachable body cams on their uniform, would be a major inconvenience since you're pretty much helpless until the police arrive. Worst case scenario, either police brutality is incredibly rampant (police are allowed to have firearms but aren't required to wear body cams) or we live under mob rule (police aren't allowed to have firearms).

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4 August 2019
12.35pm
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Beatlebug
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Something like 75 or 80% of gun deaths in the US are because of people defending themselves (and a lot of the others are people committing suicide, which is a whole other conversation). So, yes, the guns are killing people, but would you rather those people not had that option of self-defense against those who were trying to do them harm? Also, the right to bear arms is considered a (mostly theoretical) balance against government tyranny, which is why it is part of the Bill of Rights and so deeply entrenched in American culture.

I believe the conversation about reasonable tightening of gun control laws is one we can have (I don't know too many of the specifics, and it varies from state to state -- I suppose because different states have different needs, depending on where/who they are and what they do), but overturning the second amendment and/or doing a government buyback thingy like they did in Australia is an absolutely terrible idea for many reasons. The details escape me now, but I remember reading that the Parkland shooter (I think) was rather well-known by school authorities to have violent tendencies, actually did things that warranted some kind of action being taken, and they did things that only made him worse (like giving him a BB gun as a reward for good behavior, so he could shoot up the neighbor's dog*) because they had some kind of policy in place that they wanted to keep their number of sickos artificially low, instead of addressing his issues -- or something like that.

My point is, there's a lot that's wrong with the world, and just taking everyone's guns (or making them harder to get) seems like a band-aid solution that might exacerbate the issue or cause other problems.

*not that I don't understand the impulse. My neighbor has a very annoying dog and lately I've been entertaining canicidal thoughts far more frequently than I'm comfortable with. ahdn_paul_01

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4 August 2019
12.49pm
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William Shears Campbell
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I don't know how many of you have heard this number from Ringo Starr , but I think it lays it right down.

A gun is a tool.  It can be used for good, or it can misused.  Its the same as any other tool.  It's not a gun problem, but rather a misuse of guns problem.  You could even call it a gun violence problem.  Taking guns away from honest people who intend to use the guns for their proper purposes is not the answer.  Rather we should strive to create education or teaching about the reality of guns and how to properly use them.  We need to enforce responsibility when handling the powerful tool that is the gun.

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4 August 2019
1.05pm
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If there were strict enough gun laws to actually have that effect, realistically it would create a black market that criminals would have no problem utilizing, and only law abiding citizens would really be prevented from owning them with laws like that.

I know in other countries people have just had the guns taken away, but even beyond how I personally feel about that, there is a second amendment that would have to be repealed (requiring 2/3 agreement in congress and 3/4 at state conventions, which is not gonna happen any time soon), and a general pro gun culture so any kind of suggestion of doing that here would lead to massive protest and rioting.

I'm sure there are methods of gun control that could help, as well as a different focus entirely.

It's controversial to say "Guns don't kill people. People kill people."  I suppose because it's associated so heavily with the NRA.  It's a shame though because there really should be more focus on the people behind a gun who decide to pull the trigger.  Even if guns were eradicated people could still use other (if not as forceful) weapons to kill others.  It doesn't actually prevent against people wanting to kill in the first place.

I'm very much undecided on this issue, but I wish people would start focusing on other options to solve this problem because it seems to me the gun issue will never find any agreement, and politicians just sit around arguing about that without actually accomplishing anything as more and more people die.  It wasn't until this year my school even got around to having a proper safety drill in the event that a school shooting does occur, and Columbine was what 20 years ago? We can't even get uncontroversial stuff accomplished because we argue about the guns all the time.

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4 August 2019
1.05pm
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^Wish I'd thanked that more than once. a-hard-days-night-paul-7

EDIT: Argh, sub-Fiddy paul-mccartney-facepalm_gif I meant WSC's post. But Kaniffee makes a good point too. john-lennon-salute_gifapple01

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4 August 2019
3.45pm
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I genuinely have no idea how anyone can look on at all the killings and not want radical change in regards to the gun laws. The fact that US gun deaths are now part of the news/life and nothing actually new or shocking is incredibly sad - as is that nothing is going to change.

I'm not here to argue or read multiple paragraphs explaining why; even if I wanted to, which I don't, I can't.

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4 August 2019
4.23pm
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William Shears Campbell
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@meanmistermustard Laws are only effective if people follow them.  The problem isn't the laws, but rather the people that aren't following the laws.  Making another law is not going to stop a lawbreaker.

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4 August 2019
4.37pm
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William Shears Campbell said
@meanmistermustard Laws are only effective if people follow them.  The problem isn't the laws, but rather the people that aren't following the laws.  Making another law is not going to stop a lawbreaker.

  

I'm not going to get into a debate and I will stop my replies here as it's far too easy to spark massive arguments and destroy the peace that reigns on this forum. I take every effort in life to not get involved in arguments and debates, especially ones that are never going to achieve anything.

Anyway, I'm working tomorrow and the day after and need to sleep.

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4 August 2019
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a-hard-days-night-ringo-8Is it possible to rename threads? If so, maybe we could rename the Philosophy thread as a general political/philosophical/whatever discussion one so that we can have whatever arguments we need to have in there without it spilling out and ruining the relative tranquility the forum provides. I'm all for discussion, but I just don't want to have unpleasant arguments that spoil otherwise wonderful friendships. 

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4 August 2019
5.43pm
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I don’t think that banning guns entirely is the answer. I don’t know what the answer is. What I do know is that something needs to change, and even if that change is small it’s a start. Mostly, I just want someone to do something instead of sitting around talking about it— “nine times out of ten, talking is a way of avoiding doing things.” 

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4 August 2019
7.34pm
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I don't have an answer........Like all of us here I just have opinions.

As for more laws?

I'm not sure how many laws these shooters willingly ignore and break before they fire a shot.........Equally Im not sure how many shooters dutifully pass all the legal tests that are applied and own their weapons and ammunition perfectly legitimately. 

Laws applied or broken don't seem to matter either way once these sick people chamber the thought that leads them to the deed. 

One thing is sure, in the US where there are already more guns than people and the right to bare arms is written in a Constitution that carries a quasi religious respect.....The population WON"T be disarmed by politicians that shelter behind armed security. Decent Americans increasingly see the need to protect themselves.

.............That's just human nature.

5 August 2019
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The Hole Got Fixed
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QuarryMan said
a-hard-days-night-ringo-8Is it possible to rename threads? If so, maybe we could rename the Philosophy thread as a general political/philosophical/whatever discussion one so that we can have whatever arguments we need to have in there without it spilling out and ruining the relative tranquility the forum provides. I'm all for discussion, but I just don't want to have unpleasant arguments that spoil otherwise wonderful friendships. 

  

That's a good idea...a-hard-days-night-george-4

Oh, by the way, this post was made by The Hole Got Fixed!

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5 August 2019
3.31am
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Ron Nasty
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The Hole Got Fixed said

QuarryMan said

a-hard-days-night-ringo-8Is it possible to rename threads? If so, maybe we could rename the Philosophy thread as a general political/philosophical/whatever discussion one so that we can have whatever arguments we need to have in there without it spilling out and ruining the relative tranquility the forum provides. I'm all for discussion, but I just don't want to have unpleasant arguments that spoil otherwise wonderful friendships. 

That's a good idea...a-hard-days-night-george-4

Myself, I like to be able to discuss current affairs - which often have a political element - separately from the (generally) more in-depth and wider ranging "philosophy" thread. I think having the more contentious news items in the same thread as we discuss the "big ideas" would often see the "big ideas" conversations derailed by a breaking news story.

Though these threads can crossover, sometimes often, they are complimentary rather than clashing.

There is no need for anyone to read the threads that they know will include robust discussion that reflect strong opinions on either side of an argument.

I admire that these discussions are, generally, conducted with respect here, and have seen few such discussions spoil friendships.

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