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I read the news today (oh boy) - Current world events
15 March 2019
5.49pm
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Beatlebug
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50yearslate said
Why do people do horrible things like this? Humanity is sickening sometimes. a-hard-days-night-ringo-13  

I would hardly call this 'humanity', more some sick perversion of its darkest parts.

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15 March 2019
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It's emerged that among other influences, the shooter cited Candace Owens of right wing US organisation Turning Point as one of his key inspirations. Owens' response was to tweet 'LOL' with a laughing emoji at the suggestion that her rhetoric could have inspired it. I'm honestly so appalled at both her insensitivity and lack of self awareness that she can't see how her hard right arguments might have inspired right wing violence. 

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15 March 2019
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Beatlebug
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Last I checked, the shooter wasn't right-wing. Or left-wing. He was asylum-wing. a-hard-days-night-paul-10 No, but seriously, didn't he call himself some kind of neo-fascist? That's not a right or left problem. He even denounced President Trump's politics. Candace Owens is a conservative politician, not some kind of violent mass-shooter dog-whistler.

I am sick and tired of leftists using 'right-wing',' hard-right', 'right-leaning', and 'inciter of violence' synonymously. a-hard-days-night-paul-7

Edit: I was somewhat mis-informed, but all the same, I still don't feel that regular right-wing people should have to somehow be held morally responsible for the actions of far-right extremists which no one likes, any more than your average left-winger should be associated with groups like Antifa.

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15 March 2019
9.10pm
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Beatlebug said
Last I checked, the shooter wasn't right-wing. Or left-wing. He was asylum-wing. a-hard-days-night-paul-10 No, but seriously, didn't he call himself some kind of neo-fascist? That's not a right or left problem. He even denounced President Trump's politics. Candace Owens is a conservative politician, not some kind of violent mass-shooter dog-whistler.

I am sick and tired of leftists using 'right-wing',' hard-right', 'right-leaning', and 'inciter of violence' synonymously. a-hard-days-night-paul-7

No.

 

Quotes from a news article (from the ABC (Australia) which is the most highly regarded news source in Australia):

Dr Joshua Roose, an expert on extremism from the Australian Catholic University, told Hack Thursday's mass shooting demonstrates "the very real threat of far-right terrorism attacks in this country".

"There's a history of far-right violence in Australia but not to this extent - not to terrorism," he said.

 

"If that's legitimate it means people were aware of this attack overseas prior to this occurring, which gives this an international dimension," Dr Roose said.

"Right-wing terror attacks have become the most common form of terrorism in the US, by their definition.

"We're seeing the emergence of far right political parties and movements, particularly in Europe, and these groups feed off each other.

"They follow each other on social media and seek to grow and inspire each other as an international movement."

I'm sorry @Beatlebug but I trust an expert's word over yours in this scenario. 

 

Also the guy publicly identified as a white supremacist - something that is by definition far-right.

 

I'm sick and tired of right-wingers attacking left-wingers for correctly using terms that don't fit the right-wingers agendas. That may not necessarily be the nicest thing to say right now but I am. Sorry if that offends anyone butmccartney-shrug_01_gifI'll speak my mind.

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16 March 2019
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Beatlebug said
Last I checked, the shooter wasn't right-wing. Or left-wing. He was asylum-wing. a-hard-days-night-paul-10 No, but seriously, didn't he call himself some kind of neo-fascist? That's not a right or left problem. He even denounced President Trump's politics. Candace Owens is a conservative politician, not some kind of violent mass-shooter dog-whistler.

I am sick and tired of leftists using 'right-wing',' hard-right', 'right-leaning', and 'inciter of violence' synonymously. a-hard-days-night-paul-7

  

He left behind a 16,000 word 'manifesto' that pretty much name checked every major alt-right talking point. And fascism is a right wing ideology. 

And I'm sick and tired of those on the right being unable to accept that being a proponent of toxic, divisional rhetoric can often result in people acting on that rhetoric in a violent manner. Right wing commentators have been espousing Islamophobic arguments for years now, but they suddenly act all shocked and upset when something like this happens. It's time to accept that hateful ideology leads to hateful acts of violence. 

Ben Shapiro, another right wing commentator, was saying yesterday the whole thing about not mentioning the perpetrator's name as to not give him the publicity, but I bet he just doesn't want it revealed just how close the terrorist was to his own ideology, since whenever a terrorist act is committed by an Islamic person, he is broadcasting their name front and centre in everything he posts about it. 

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16 March 2019
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Fascism is an authoritarian ideology, not a left or right wing one. However, his views on Islam and white supremacy clearly place him within the authoritarian right. It also really pisses me off when people generalize either the left or the right, as there are good and bad people on both sides.

Also, Trump is too liberal for some conservatives, considering his support for things like LGBT rights and drug legalization. After all, this is the guy who stated that Caitlyn Jenner could use any bathroom she'd like.

As for Candace Owens' remarks, it's incredibly sickening how something as horrible as a mass shooting can be taken as a joke like that and i hope she's deplatformed like Milo and Alex Jones because her comments were incredibly insensitive and inappropriate.

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16 March 2019
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Fascism is arguably more defined by what it opposes than what it actually supports, making it hard to place on the political spectrum, but it's still a right wing ideology, particularly in its modern iterations. German nationalist thinker Johann Gottfried Von Herder said "there is but one class, the Volk, and the king belongs to it as well as the peasant", and that pretty much covers it: where socialists look at society through economic class, fascists look at it through race. 

DO pretty much nails it there. The sentence "Trump is too liberal for some conservatives" is pretty upsetting for me, but it's sadly true. I won't buy his support for the LGBT community until he fires Pence as Vice President, though, since Pence has vocally supported stuff like shock conversion therapy for gay people before. 

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16 March 2019
8.53am
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This kinda mentality is why white supremacy is rising  We gotta be on the look out for this and cant go

"oh no someone is going after someome who might be closer to my political spectrum, I must defend"

Like there are good people on both sides but we need to recognize people on 'our side' who are toxic, hateful individuals and give your side bad names.

The good right people are in the best place to fight the bad ones. Please help us all and stomp out ur garbage. 

 

Left do that as well. 

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16 March 2019
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I agree in principle, but if you hold far right views then you are absolutely not a good person in my opinion. It's not a case of 'there are good and bad fascists', they're just fascists, and fascists are evil. Anyone trying to separate these killings from the ideology that inspired them is deluding themselves. 

I think it's also worth mentioning that radical Islamic terrorism is a form of fascism in itself. They pretty much want the same things as western fascists - a mono-ethnic and mono-religious society with very conservative opinions on things like LGBT rights, women's rights and abortion, and a strong state to enforce these things. They just differ on the specifics, and it's that which opposes them to each other. When you consider that, pretty much every recent terrorist atrocity in the last few years has been committed by a fascist. We can't keep pretending like it's an issue of the individual terrorist only and not of a wider, evil ideology. 

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16 March 2019
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Im talking if you are right or left. Just cause ur right or left dont mean ur far right or far left.

My post didnt mention fascists at all.

We should read more carefully before jumping to conclusions.

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16 March 2019
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I disagree, there are plenty of good people who hold far right views.

I think this comment from King Of The Hill will help explain my point:

"They'll never write a Hollywood musical about a fellow who keeps his yard free of debris and pays his bills on time and the MTV won't put on a video about a man who requires shoes in the kitchen."

You see, the media distorts our views on these people because they'll only tell us about the crazy members of that group. In this case, when you hear about those on the far right, you'll hear about groups like the Westboro Baptist Church and the KKK and not some Christian father who loves his kids because the latter would be boring whereas the former is interesting. The same thing happens with other groups like feminists.

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16 March 2019
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Starr Shine? said
Im talking if you are right or left. Just cause ur right or left dont mean ur far right or far left.

My post didnt mention fascists at all.

We should read more carefully before jumping to conclusions.

  

Yes, but the discussion was about the recent terror attacks in New Zealand, the perpetrators of which were fascists. Plus it seemed like you were responding to myself and Dark Overlord, both of whom mentioned fascism in our recent posts, since you said "this kinda mentality". 

And yes, if we're talking about people who are moderate enough for their views not to be directly harmful, then of course not everyone on the right is bad. But the moderate people aren't the ones walking into mosques and committing mass murder.

Dark Overlord said
I disagree, there are plenty of good people who hold far right views.

I think this comment from King Of The Hill will help explain my point:

"They'll never write a Hollywood musical about a fellow who keeps his yard free of debris and pays his bills on time and the MTV won't put on a video about a man who requires shoes in the kitchen."

You see, the media distorts our views on these people because they'll only tell us about the crazy members of that group. In this case, when you hear about those on the far right, you'll hear about groups like the Westboro Baptist Church and the KKK and not some Christian father who loves his kids because the latter would be boring whereas the former is interesting. The same thing happens with other groups like feminists.

  

I think you're being a bit intellectually dishonest. When you say 'some Christian father who loves his kids' you are not giving the full picture, because a Christian father loving his kids in itself does not make that man far right. You're deliberately leaving out the harmful parts of it - i.e probably that this man presumably has racist, sexist and homophobic views. My dad is a Christian father who loves his kids, and he's moderately left wing. If you're going to use that as an example, then say what you mean and don't only include half the picture. 

I fully get what you're saying about the media. But you're acting as if the sensationalist media makes far right views appear to be more harmful than they are, and therefore not mentioning all the GOOD people who hold far right views, but those people don't exist. If you hold views that are homophobic, sexist or racist then you are not a good person. Simple as that. It's not like there are *some* nice KKK members, it's that, if you're in the KKK, you're not nice. Before you say that it's not all far right people, I'll correct you. It's "not all right wing people", not "not all far right wing people". The inclusion of the prefix "far" is implying that they are extremists.

Basically, the issue of how the media only reports dramatic things isn't really relevant here, because in this case the views that far right people hold are offensive enough on their own without that. I think what you're saying could be correct if you differentiated between moderate right wing people, or centrists (like your average loving Christian father without any of the small print), but that doesn't appear to be what you're doing.

BTW, for anyone wondering, while it might seem that I'm not acknowledging the economic aspects of the political compass, I just don't think they're that relevant to the issue here, which is more about the social aspects of it, since in this case the terrorist didn't seem to be concerned with economics particularly. 

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16 March 2019
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When i said Christian father, i mean a fundamentalist Christian who follows the Bible word for word.

As for the KKK, you're right, there are no good Klansmen.

Anyways, i think this had more to do with mental illness then his political views.

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16 March 2019
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If someone actually followed the bible word for word I'd be mightily impressed given how specific a lot of it is, but it would also make them a bad person, because they'd have to start doing things like stoning adulterers. Here's some of the rampart sexism in the bible, for example:

"Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head.

But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head — it is the same as having her head shaved.

If a woman does not cover her head, she might as well have her hair cut off; but if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should cover her head.

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

And from Deuteronomy:

"And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife.

Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails.

And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.

And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will..."

From Timothy:

“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.”

Anyways, i think this had more to do with mental illness then his political views.

This is where I disagree. Mental illness probably played a factor into it, but if he was just some mad guy who went over the edge he wouldn't have published a huge manifesto detailing exactly why he did it, including reference to a great deal of right wing politicians, talking points, arguments and scenarios. 

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16 March 2019
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Here and now is not the place to debate in-depth the Bible and all things Christain. However, the Old Testament laws and reactions to sin were overthrown by what Christ did on the Cross so all that about stoning etc is redundant and is not for today. I cannot remember where exactly but I think it's Hebrews where it explains how the laws written back in the OT did not work so a new better way had to found and that was thru the Cross (if anyone cares I'll find it).

An eye for an eye was superceded by turn the other cheek. 

Jesus on adultery for example (since it's named above).

Then they all went home, but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.

At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger.When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman , where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

“No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

(John 7:53 - 8:11)

The issue of women in the Church is absolutely massive and would overtake pages of this forum.

Massive atrocities have been carried out and millions have been killed by Christians and I am in no way excusing those actions.

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16 March 2019
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I'd be interested to see @Beatlebug 's thoughts on the last 11 posts at some stage. 

I think at this rate I can stop posting and let QuarryMan be my proxy-state... that's a 100% agree rate I have right now!

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16 March 2019
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Very well said, @meanmistermustard . My opinion on Christianity tends to be that if you just go with what Jesus himself said, you're set, since as far as I know everything he taught still holds up today. It's all the old testament nonsense and whatnot that can spoil it, and the same is true for scripture in Islam and Judaism. 

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16 March 2019
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QuarryMan said
Very well said, @meanmistermustard . My opinion on Christianity tends to be that if you just go with what Jesus himself said, you're set, since as far as I know everything he taught still holds up today. It's all the old testament nonsense and whatnot that can spoil it, and the same is true for scripture in Islam and Judaism. 

That's a very nice compliment, @The Hole Got Fixed, thank you very much a-hard-days-night-john-6a-hard-days-night-john-3

  

The Old Testament is not nonsense and was not deemed as such when Jesus came and then died. The OT is about humans trying to follow the law to be right with God and do good to be good enough which was and is impossible. There are also plenty of the OT held up and quoted by Jesus. It's the balance that is required and not just taking scriptures here and there and trying to apply or justify positions or actions two thousand years later be it from either Testament, which I think most Christian branches do.

I'm not saying Christianity is perfect or better than any other religion, it's clearly not. I don't follow it but if others do, fair enough. Who am I to say they are wrong etc?

I'm far more in agreement with John's view about the Church where the Christians are the problem with Christianity. Jesus is fine and his ways were good but many twist it to their own ways and desires and then proclaim those as true whilst ignoring what doesn't suit them. 

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16 March 2019
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Moving on.

Scotland was losing 31-0 after 31 minutes in the rugby v England at Twickenham earlier.

After 76 minutes they were winning 38-31.

They drew 38-38 with England levelling with the last kick of the ball.

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16 March 2019
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I ate kfc. Also a current world event.

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