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I read the news today (oh boy) - Current world events
20 January 2019
1.38pm
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AppleScruffJunior
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A bit closer to home (for me and the Brits anyways). Some idiot(s) set off a car bomb in Derry, Northern Ireland last night. Probably trying to get a rise out of everyone, and start The Troubles 2.0, when the original Troubles was a waste of thousands of lives, and ultimately achieved nothing. 

Fortunately no one was injured but the bomb was called in 15 minutes before it went off, which suggests it was the IRA or some knob pretending he's a big IRA man. 

I don't consider myself a republican, I think the whole 'united Ireland' is a lovely dream and thought but the North is a money pit, has a massive public sector that we'd have to hire if we ever reunited, and we'd have to wait 20 years for most of the idiotic Orangemen to die off. However, opinions up North are changing as regards a united Ireland so maybe Star Trek was right and we'll be a united country by 2024.

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20 January 2019
1.48pm
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Ahhh Girl
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My pinwheel brain is still going round and round. This post may not be exactly flowing or coherent. 

DO's border without physical barricades - so would anyone who wants to come in be allowed to cross that border? If not, how do you keep people out you don't want to come in (thus it wouldn't be an open border)? Who gets in?

I don't think the wall would keep out innocent people looking for a better life. They, too, would find a way around a physical wall. Like those leaving Africa and the Middle East for the UK - just set out on a boat further down the coast where no one is patrolling yet.

Does the US, UK, Europe, etc. let in everyone who doesn't want to be in their country of origin? What I was trying to get out, but failed to communicate clearly, with this statement

If people from anywhere in the world could go live where they want under open borders (I'm thinking of like Africans moving to Europe and Mexican and South Americans moving to the US), would the world look more like the US, Australia, and other fairly stable countries or would it look more like Syria or other countries with horrid civil wars and fighting on?

is: would enough "bad" elements from those places bring the US and Europe down to the point that the US and Europe are as bad off politically, socially, economically as a Syria, etc.? Then the US and Europe wouldn't be any better than say Syria or Honduras so people wouldn't have a reason to want to try to make it to the US or Europe. (Kind of like what Beatlebug was getting at with the Sweden example.) Or would those people who come rise up to the level of the current societies in the US, Australia, etc.

About us sprucing up third-world countries...from what I understand, the people in control in some countries don't want their country spruced up. They don't like Western decadence. Should we allow everyone who doesn't like the way their leaders are running their country to migrate elsewhere (EDIT: or those running from violence and no job prospects)? Would we put conditions on them such as integrating into the established societal norms of the country where they want to go?

An open-borders area that has partially-closed/controlled boarders surrounding it. What controls and policies are needed for the coming climate crisis? What are we to do?

Could Thailand and other countries become like the Dutch and reclaim land from the sea? Wow, I didn't realize the Netherlands had added that much land. Go, y'all!

Netherlands.JPGImage Enlarger

All this boggles my mind. So much to consider.

Ramble back to me.

For Wigwam who thought 40 was old once: I've thought about this Fyodor Dostoyevsky quote for about a decade now.

“I am forty years old now, and you know forty years is a whole lifetime; you know it is extreme old age. To live longer than forty years is bad manners, is vulgar, immoral. Who does live beyond forty? Answer that, sincerely and honestly. I will tell you who do: fools and worthless fellows. I tell all old men that to their face, all these venerable old men, all these silver-haired and reverend seniors! I tell the whole world that to its face! I have a right to say so, for I shall go on living to sixty myself. To seventy! To eighty!”

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Wigwam, Beatlebug
20 January 2019
2.57pm
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Wigwam said
It wasn't rude. Let's re-phrase that....I can't see how it is rude.......It's a question. I'm assuming 'empathy' and 'compassion' have a limit. Do you have a limit? If so what is it? 

No limits. It's like unconditional love - unconditional empathy.

Didn't think your post was rude though.

Beatlebug said
but I don't know that anyone of sense could argue for no borders at all.  

Well, gee, thanks... way to wake up this morning to find that someone I thought was very civil and a friend genuinely thinks I have no sense. I hope you will retract that comment.

(No borders are a workable idea in most places. I admit that some places need borders... Korea springs to mind, but perhaps not for too much longer? Who knows)

Beatlebug said
1) Yes, anything right of far left seems to be seen as right wing these days, but I assure you that, even though so far I've spent most of my time countering arguments from the left (which, due to the relativistic nature of such things, does make me look righty), I'm not full-on right-wing.

Interesting, because almost all major political parties in all countries are legitimately right wing, or at the very least slightly right of centre. 

But that does clear my misconception up.

AG - reclaiming land is an idea that needs to be tapped into more - it's another of the many reasons why I so want to go to The Netherlands.

Oh, by the way, this post was made by The Hole Got Fixed!

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20 January 2019
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Any thoughts on anything else I wrote, @The Hole Got Fixed? If you don't, that's ok. I'd just like to know what your thoughts are. All very interesting.

20 January 2019
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However, while some land reclamation is possible, it has to be remembered that it's an expensive process and many of those countries that will be most affected by rising sea levels, like the Pacific Ocean Islands and the Indian Ocean Islands, are among the poorest in the world.

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The Beatles Non-Canon Poll List

20 January 2019
4.02pm
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We could give them aid.

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20 January 2019
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Ahhh Girl said
Any thoughts on anything else I wrote, @The Hole Got Fixed? If you don't, that's ok. I'd just like to know what your thoughts are. All very interesting.

  

Yes I do have thoughts on quite a few of your points AG - I just needed a little bit of time for your points to sink in so I know what I wanted to reply with.

Ahhh Girl said

DO's border without physical barricades - so would anyone who wants to come in be allowed to cross that border? If not, how do you keep people out you don't want to come in (thus it wouldn't be an open border)? Who gets in?

That's a tough one. In an ideal world (and lets be honest - it's not and I can't see open borders ever happening), you could trust everyone. You can't, so that's out of the equation. However, from all of the people that immigrate or emigrate, there is a microscopic number of people who have bad intentions, and as said earlier those people will get through anyway. It just means more police are needed, and admittedly surveillance will need to improve. However, as shown in Australia, it's quite doable to foil a huge number of terrorist plots, and honestly so many of them are home-grown people that we should really put the surveillance on ourselves... Anyhow, my point is that with open borders, you let everyone through - it just means that you need more police (which tbh we do anyway) to do some thinking instead of *redacted before posting for fear of opening another huge can of worms* and that would solve the problem imo.

I don't think the wall would keep out innocent people looking for a better life. They, too, would find a way around a physical wall. Like those leaving Africa and the Middle East for the UK - just set out on a boat further down the coast where no one is patrolling yet.

Most of them don't have means to do so, and you'd be forcing them onto overcrowded boats like you said, and usually that creates another 100 or so deaths. That's a really silly idea, I'd far prefer land movement.

Does the US, UK, Europe, etc. let in everyone who doesn't want to be in their country of origin? What I was trying to get out, but failed to communicate clearly, with this statement

If people from anywhere in the world could go live where they want under open borders (I'm thinking of like Africans moving to Europe and Mexican and South Americans moving to the US), would the world look more like the US, Australia, and other fairly stable countries or would it look more like Syria or other countries with horrid civil wars and fighting on?

is: would enough "bad" elements from those places bring the US and Europe down to the point that the US and Europe are as bad off politically, socially, economically as a Syria, etc.? Then the US and Europe wouldn't be any better than say Syria or Honduras so people wouldn't have a reason to want to try to make it to the US or Europe. (Kind of like what Beatlebug was getting at with the Sweden example.) Or would those people who come rise up to the level of the current societies in the US, Australia, etc.

There's a balance. There needs to be a line between 'letting them continue with their own culture and not assimilating' and 'make them be exactly like their new country's culture'. Australia did that quite well in the last 50 or so years, we have no issues, we are one of the most multi-cultural countries in the world, and except for the a-hole bogan racist bigots, we are all really happy to be so multicultural, and most of the people who have moved here are happy to give some of their culture of for Australian culture - the perfect mix. That's where the US is going wrong a little imo.

About us sprucing up third-world countries...from what I understand, the people in control in some countries don't want their country spruced up. They don't like Western decadence. Should we allow everyone who doesn't like the way their leaders are running their country to migrate elsewhere (EDIT: or those running from violence and no job prospects)? Would we put conditions on them such as integrating into the established societal norms of the country where they want to go?

If a citizen is feeling suppressed under a government they should be able to move somewhere better. 

Also see above response...

An open-borders area that has partially-closed/controlled boarders surrounding it. What controls and policies are needed for the coming climate crisis? What are we to do?

Ah, the climate crisis. Don't get me started on it. The thing is, in that regard, I want all the refugees in the world to go to Germany because they are the only country who knows what they're doing, along with (kinda) the Danes and the Dutch. But, the thing is, the crisis will happen wherever people are, and it's the responsibility of the first world countries to try to fix it, and it's really not hard... but I can elaborate on that after this discussion is finished if you want.

Basically, it's always going to be a crisis if we don't do anything, regardless of where the people of the world are, tbh

 

Those are my thoughts on your post @Ahhh Girl, hope that helps!

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20 January 2019
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Some will consider this 'trite'

Quite a while back I was in a UK supermarket.......This was just before a Christmas......I wasn't aware at the time but apparently there was a Brussel sprout shortage that year.

Sometimes they say that just to drum up more sales and shortages are claimed when there isn't one.....So true or not I don't know.

Any way two elderly, (older than me) and respectfully dressed ladies grabbed at the last net of Brussels on display. I'd detected one was slightly ahead of the other and I expected the lady who was last to relinquish her grip. That's the English way....especially from ladies of my mum's generation.

An unseemly tug-of-war began and neither would back down.......Christmas dinner was at stake you see.

It was silent, no swearing but resolute and nasty and ended as you would expect with a broken net, Brussels rolling all over the floor and two empty handed ladies staring death at each other.

I've never forgotten that.

I've seen arguments at petrol stations during fuel shortages....Arguments over queue jumpers in many situations. I know I've seen such things but couldn't give you details......But the sight of those two ladies struggle I can always replay that in my mind.

I learned a lesson that day.

Obviously the ladies could have shared the sprouts and gotten round the problem that way.......That would be the civilised reasonable response......But 2000 years of civilisation was stripped from these two in a fraction of a second.........Even when their survival wasn't in any way at stake!!!

The hole got fixed has an admirable attitude.......But empathy and compassion have a limit. Not perhaps with regard to your own child. Any parent would give the last sip of water to his/her child.....But.....compassion and particularly empathy would go out the window should another parent attempt to snatch that cup of water away from your child.

With climate change and completely open borders there might not be enough to go around.....Then.....!! 

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20 January 2019
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Holey said, "Anyhow, my point is that with open borders, you let everyone through"

Can people cross that border anytime or do they have to go through a process/wait? Or is there no border to cross - borderless?

Guess I am confused by the phrase "open borders". The free movement area within Europe basically means borderless, right? The "border" is around the bloc as a whole.

Can each country in the European Union set it's own illegal immigration policy or is it one policy for the whole union?

20 January 2019
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I remember parents fighting over Cabbage Patch Kids for their kids. Insane. 

If there is a border, are known rapists, murders, and child molesters allowed to cross the border?

I am all questions. Don't look to me for answers.

20 January 2019
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I'm not aware of any open borders......The EU has as I've said before a border around it. Once inside that border, the borders of most member states can be crossed with ease. Although when 'Mother Merkel', (I say mother because she wants to appear compassionate to compensate for Germany's nazi legacy.......But she's not an actual  mother and has no stake in the future)).....When she unilaterally let any 'country shopper' come in to the EU, states like Hungary objected strongly. They resisted 'this is not a good look' criticisms and the threat of sanctions.  Hungary put up a hard border and it worked the country shoppers stopped and took another route to the promised lands of Scandinavia and Norther Europe.

Unhindered, unfettered entry to the US or anywhere else means that there are no checks and no one knows anything about the people coming across other than they are willing to begin their 'citizenship' by breaking the laws of that country, ignore its fair immigration systems ......to jump the queue.

21 January 2019
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Ahhh Girl said
If there is a border, are known rapists, murders, and child molesters allowed to cross the border?

I am all questions. Don't look to me for answers.

That's an issue, I won't deny that at all. What I would suggest is tighter security in towns closer to the border so police can be on the lookout for known suspects/suspicious activity, stuff like that. 

Oh, by the way, this post was made by The Hole Got Fixed!

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21 January 2019
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Today French authorities ordered a 10-foot high wall to be built in Calais to stop migrants getting to Britain.

The barrier has just gone up next to a Total petrol station in the French port that had become a magnet for people smugglers.  

It is believed to be the first time an entire wall aimed at stopping migration to Britain has been built alongside a problem area at such short notice.

Local paper Nord Littoral posted a picture of the new wall on its Twitter site, showing two migrants next to it. 

Proper or improper use of a wall?

21 January 2019
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The Hole Got Fixed said

Ahhh Girl said

If there is a border, are known rapists, murders, and child molesters allowed to cross the border?

I am all questions. Don't look to me for answers.

That's an issue, I won't deny that at all. What I would suggest is tighter security in towns closer to the border so police can be on the lookout for known suspects/suspicious activity, stuff like that. 

21 January 2019
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QuarryMan said
That video of MAGA hat wearing white students taunting and mocking a Native American protestor that has circulated online appalls and disgusts me. I have sent a strongly worded email to the staff of the school they belong to, if anyone would like the email addresses to do the same I'd be glad to share. 

Here's the video. I found it pretty distressing and upsetting so I would be wary about watching it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGGFF4zOxWw


  

https://youtu.be/AScPnQ13SQ0

Perhaps more nuanced that we thought........

21 January 2019
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Interesting video @Wigwam . Just goes to show that not every issue is as transparent as it might first appear.

I have little sympathy for either the MAGA hat wearing kids or the Israelites, since both were acting in a pretty antagonistic way. Quite sad that mr Phillip's song, which was seemingly welcomed at first by the kids, turned into a confrontation with some chanting 'build the wall' while that one kid faced him off with that horrible smirk on his face. 

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21 January 2019
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^The Germans have a great word for that 14 year old edge lord and his sickly grin "Backpfeifengesicht"- a face that needs a smack.

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21 January 2019
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The Hole Got Fixed said

Beatlebug said
but I don't know that anyone of sense could argue for no borders at all.  

Well, gee, thanks... way to wake up this morning to find that someone I thought was very civil and a friend genuinely thinks I have no sense. I hope you will retract that comment.

My apologies that you thought I felt that way, @The Hole Got Fixed. I wrote that 'I don't know that anyone of sense could argue for no borders', not that 'Anyone who argues for no borders has no sense' -- important nuance there. I hope you see that my phrasing allowed for the possibility that someone could convincingly argue for no borders, and I just hadn't come across any yet. (I haven't been on this scene very long. Maybe you or someone else has, I don't know.) I do try to keep an open mind. I hope you will continue to think me very civil and a friend, for I strive at all times to be civil and fair-minded, and do consider you a friend. apple01

And whilst I'm at the apologies and explanations

@Ron Nasty said
I'm not sure if you were agreeing with me or saying my response to Wigwam's comment was the most laughable things you've read today, Beatlebug?

If the latter, you are greatly mistaken about where I get news from. I had to google MSNBC to find out what it was. Don't think we get that in the UK. Our TV news is not allowed the political bias which so warps the American debate (though, of course, political parties often accuse it).

If you were agreeing though... john-lennon-salute_gif

a-hard-days-night-george-10heart  

Once again I was careless with my words (I really need to stop posting after 22:00) and I apologise. I wasn't agreeing, but I mistakenly assumed that that news outlet was one of your news sources since your bias against Trump strongly reminds me of theirs, and you did link to a video by MSNBC on the topic once. I believe it's called 'jumping to conclusions' (not to mention being snarky) and once again, I apologise. (New Year's resolution 2019: PWTs must not be made in controversial threads)

And with that, I leave you all to your debate. Carry on. john-lennon-salute_gif

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21 January 2019
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No hard feelings @Beatlebug now that I've been directed to that slight nuance. heart It does make more sense now!

Also...

Wigwam said

The Hole Got Fixed said

Ahhh Girl said

If there is a border, are known rapists, murders, and child molesters allowed to cross the border?

I am all questions. Don't look to me for answers.

That's an issue, I won't deny that at all. What I would suggest is tighter security in towns closer to the border so police can be on the lookout for known suspects/suspicious activity, stuff like that. 

  

So as you said nothing do you not have anything to counter my argument, thus I've won the argument?

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21 January 2019
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The Hole Got Fixed said
No hard feelings @Beatlebug now that I've been directed to that slight nuance. heart It does make more sense now!

Also...

Wigwam said

The Hole Got Fixed said

Ahhh Girl said

If there is a border, are known rapists, murders, and child molesters allowed to cross the border?

I am all questions. Don't look to me for answers.

That's an issue, I won't deny that at all. What I would suggest is tighter security in towns closer to the border so police can be on the lookout for known suspects/suspicious activity, stuff like that. 

  

So as you said nothing do you not have anything to counter my argument, thus I've won the argument?

  

Is that conclusion the most likely one?

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