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End Of Year Awards
5 January 2021
9.29pm
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Little Piggy Dragonguy
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Ron Nasty said

I also commented that I had no problem with changes to the poll that were agreed to by the majority of Forumpudlians, 50yearslate, my post you quote was merely saying that if changes were made that are not agreed to, I will offer the chance to vote on a poll that hasn’t been changed. Surely you are not supporting changes being made to the poll that people do not agree to? 

Nobody has ever said this is what is happening. If we were going to do that, we wouldn’t be posting about this on the forum. I don’t understand where you’re getting that from. 

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5 January 2021
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Ron Nasty
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My comment was in response to the merger of History and News being brought up again, by someone who has regularly run the poll, and seems unable to accept that, despite them putting the idea forward several times, the majority who have expressed an opinion on the idea of that merger have not agreed with the idea. Yet it keeps being raised by the same person, time and again, as if the fact that the idea has been consistently rejected – as you’ve acknowledged yourself, @Little Piggy Dragonguy – doesn’t matter.

It was rejected previously, it was rejected again before Christmas by several of us – as you know, and there is no sign that others want it changed now from comments that have been made, but it keeps being brought up by one person, someone who has run the poll, as something they want changed.

I merely made the point that were changes to be made by whoever runs next year’s poll without agreement, Forumpudlians could be offered the traditional poll.

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The Beatles Bible 2020 non-Canon Poll Part One: 1958-1963 and Part Two: 1964-August 1966

6 January 2021
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meanmistermustard said
The problem with one person is that it risks becoming their awards and what they want is how it is, with everyone getting a say it can become a free for all. 

  

That’s my point exactly. I’m sure if you had a hypothetical panel of @Starr Shine?, @The Hole Got Fixed, @Ron Nasty, @50yearslate and @Little Piggy Dragonguy then people will be more willing to accept any decisions that are made.  You’re never going to please everybody, but as things stand nobody seems to be happy.

I’ve never voted, and to be honest I don’t intend to*, because a) I don’t know any of you well enough and b) It ends up being a popularity contest, regardless of how it’s spun. I’ve no idea what makes somebody more of a fan than John/Paul/George/Ringo than any other – is it knowledge? devotion? whether or not they have all their albums? 

*Having said that, I’d have voted for WSC for the Ringo award simply because of their quest to tab out his back catalogue on the ukulele. a-hard-days-night-ringo-15

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6 January 2021
5.36am
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My 2 cents: Is Beatles news even really a justified category? Beatles knowledge 100% is, but is sharing a link and doing a brief summary of news a meaningful category (you can argue this with a lot of the categories but these two seem to be the same ones up for debate)? You could even set up a bot to do it.

 

(Note I do appreciate everyone who posts in the Beatles News thread and it’s lovely hearing what’s coming up).

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6 January 2021
6.04am
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It was rejected previously, it was rejected again before Christmas by several of us – as you know, and there is no sign that others want it changed now from comments that have been made, but it keeps being brought up by one person, someone who has run the poll, as something they want changed.

This isn’t a thing that only I would want, several people expressed interest in the idea so to call it just something I bring up is disingenuous. 

Part of the probalem before is that it gets brought up right before teh results are live so we haven’t had a real talk about it.

 

I’ve never voted, and to be honest I don’t intend to*,

So my concern about multiple people all knowing the results and there for making it not very anonymous doesn’t apply to you.

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6 January 2021
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@Starr Shine? said
This isn’t a thing that only I would want, several people expressed interest in the idea so to call it just something I bring up is disingenuous.

With the exception of ASJ’s post above yours, no-one except yourself and LPD has raised the possibility of merging History and News in this thread. Now, I don’t know, there may have been discussions privately over on the Discord several Forumpudlians use, but a Discord not used by many Forumpudlians, or even a group discussing it out of sight via PM, but that does not constitute an open discussion on the forum about what changes to consider making to the poll.

I am quite happy to discuss that change, and am more than happy to defend why they are considered separate categories, and how they differ, and why both are essential aspects of the forum. It seems some would prefer the poll to be a popularity contest rather than a poll about important aspects of what makes us a Beatles forum and discussion site as opposed to a social forum that just happens to have Beatles in its name.

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The Beatles Bible 2020 non-Canon Poll Part One: 1958-1963 and Part Two: 1964-August 1966

6 January 2021
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If so, I did flesh out some reasoning about why. I think having separate news and history isn’t needed anymore if you want to address those points. 

 

Also ASJ and LP Dragon are still people who disagree so this is a more divided issue than just me saying so.

 

If we had a committee. There would be fsr more private discussions rather than out in the open like this.

 

I think before we set up a poll or some other kinda vote on the issue. people could come and bring out their reasoning one way or the other so everyone can have their say before deciding. 

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6 January 2021
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Guys this is literally a thread devoted to voting and democracy– why don’t we just hold a vote on whether the awards are in need of reform and then we can discuss what that reform might be, if it’s decided that we need some?

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6 January 2021
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 ^ Agreed, sadly we don’t have the poll option anymore so it’ll need to be an online poll.

Ron Nasty said

@Starr Shine? said

This isn’t a thing that only I would want, several people expressed interest in the idea so to call it just something I bring up is disingenuous.

With the exception of ASJ’s post above yours, no-one except yourself and LPD has raised the possibility of merging History and News in this thread.

  

Do I not count as a person, RN :'( 

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6 January 2021
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In case my stance was not clear, I also support a merging of the History and News awards. 

Plus, Ron, re: the discord, there are about ten of us on both the BB and the discord, which is a pretty significant proportion (especially considering that this year’s voter turnout was 18). Therefore, I don’t think those of us who use the discord deserve to be treated like an insignificant group of rebels trying to stir up trouble in the void.

(That said, I do feel the need to clarify that not all of the Discord users agree about the merging of the awards.)

Also, a reminder that you’re always welcome to join at any time. 🙂

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6 January 2021
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I clearly state that, beyond SS? and LPD, you were the only person to have brought up merging History and News, @AppleScruffJunior, and reference the post in which you said it. “With the exception of…” means you are the only other person to bring it up specifically, not that you hadn’t said anything on the subject.

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6 January 2021
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I think the poll should take place on the weekend so more people can weight in on the multiple issues we wanna bring up like the funniest post, newest member and history/news merger

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7 January 2021
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Ron Nasty
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Okay, I have said I will argue the case for History and News remaining separate categories rather than dumbed down into one, and I would make this argument whether I had been winning both for a while or not.

History, the aspect which seems the valued, piss easy 90% of the time, as it is for Joe, mmm, the Bontees and many others; the occasional reach for a book or pulling up a Joe article to double-check something is all that’s needed. Most of the time it’s not who can answer but who answers first.

Beatles News is a whole different affair. Firstly, and I can only respond to how I do it, a bot could not do what I do with news as has been suggested. I think I curate much more what I post, and hope others follow the example. There are far fewer fluff stories posted, or clickbait. I could post half-a-dozen stories from The Daily Express a week, but don’t because they’re clickbait. Nor do I do a lot of x-posting to the News thread and a more appropriate existing thread that often. If there’s a more appropriate thread, it doesn’t make the News thread, which means some News stories aren’t necessarily being viewed as News posts because they don’t make the News thread.

My obituary of Terry Doran in the RIP Thread was a news story, included much research done by me on that day, and was far from a just a link to the story being told elsewhere, or there’s my discovering the news of Astrid’s death via a tweet from Mark Lewisohn. When the news of an Abbey Road  50th Deluxe was broken on the forum, it was not because of some news story, it was because I saw a tweet from Giles that quoted the last line of The End  and pictured a period mixing desk. No more evidence than that. I wondered if I was doing a “2+2=5” but was proved right, and it was quickly spun off into it’s own thread.

News isn’t bloody easy, and you certainly can’t keep up by setting a Google alert, and a forum like this should want to prove its credentials in not only history but also in keeping up to date in the latest developments on things about them as a group as well as their solo careers.

News stories, finding and filtering them, is a much harder task than history, despite what some of you might think, and it is disrespectful to the importance of both to a Beatles forum to treat them as if they are much the same, and that news is the easy one.

Of course, if the majority feel news isn’t an important part of the forum, I’ll happily stop wasting my time by sharing it with you, and would encourage others to do the same.

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8 January 2021
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I’d just like to briefly share my thoughts on a few of the ideas brought up on the past few pages. Even if I happened to have shared my opinions on any of these ideas before, it might not hurt to have them repeated.

On the topic of categories being incorrectly voted in or skipped altogether, perhaps a short explanation could be given on more complicated categories in the voting form itself to act as a reminder of how to vote and what kinds of things you should be voting for. Not only would people be less likely to vote incorrectly, but if any people were to have otherwise skipped voting for a category because they were unsure of what they should be looking for in a vote, they may be more inclined to take the time to vote for someone or something. People skipping categories because they have no real opinion, on the other hand, can’t really be helped and just has to be accepted from time to time.

About having a shortlist for post awards, I feel like the existing thread for submissions could work just fine. Only a handful of posts tend to be submitted each year anyways, but if a lot of posts are submitted, I don’t mind RN’s idea of choosing some based on thanks given.

Concerning the creation of a sort of awards committee, I agree with SS? in that it might create a disconnect and make part of the poll discussion too private.

Finally, with regard to the merging of the Beatles History and Beatles News awards, I agree with RN. They are most definitely not similar enough to be combined, they are important aspects of the forum in their own right. Therefore, to do so just wouldn’t make sense.

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8 January 2021
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I agree with SS? that a poll is a good idea. So I can put it up tonight or tomorrow morning and we’ll leave it open over the weekend and possibly longer if you guys want. We can’t make polls on the forum, so I’ll do it with Google like the awards were.

 

These are the things we’ll be voting on. If anybody wants to add anything else to it let me know and we can. 

-Merging history and news

-Adding a newbie award (we can talk about wording now or after the poll whichever)

-Re-wording “things that make you go hmmm” to be less ambiguous

-Ron’s idea of thanking nominations in the post thread to narrow down options for the end of the year

 

It’s probably not a good idea for the poll to be anonymous as we had somebody vote under a different username for the end of year awards, so I will do the same thing where you need to put in your username in order to vote. mmm has voiced concerns that if only one person has access to the votes, it’s easy for them to lie about the results. I don’t want that to be a concern, so I was thinking about possibly sharing the results with Holey (or another mod) if that makes people feel more comfortable.

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Little Piggy Dragonguy said
I agree with SS? that a poll is a good idea. So I can put it up tonight or tomorrow morning and we’ll leave it open over the weekend and possibly longer if you guys want. We can’t make polls on the forum, so I’ll do it with Google like the awards were.

 

These are the things we’ll be voting on. If anybody wants to add anything else to it let me know and we can. 

-Merging history and news

-Adding a newbie award (we can talk about wording now or after the poll whichever)

-Re-wording “things that make you go hmmm” to be less ambiguous

-Ron’s idea of thanking nominations in the post thread to narrow down options for the end of the year

 

It’s probably not a good idea for the poll to be anonymous as we had somebody vote under a different username for the end of year awards, so I will do the same thing where you need to put in your username in order to vote. mmm has voiced concerns that if only one person has access to the votes, it’s easy for them to lie about the results. I don’t want that to be a concern, so I was thinking about possibly sharing the results with Holey (or another mod) if that makes people feel more comfortable.

  

I have no memory of that. 

I take it that it is taken from

The problem with one person is that it risks becoming their awards and what they want is how it is, with everyone getting a say it can become a free for all.

but it was meant to mean that if one person is running the awards then they could do whatever they liked and make the awards comprise all of their ideas and wants. It never related to results as it never occurred to me results would be altered. 

If I did say it somewhere else I apologise. I write a ton of utter garbage on this forum and forget 99.9% of what I have posted. I’m convinced I wrote a post which contained a reference to horse manure after a disagreement but cannot find it so can only think I never did.

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8 January 2021
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Yes it was that post I was looking at and thought you were talking about the results. My bad. 

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8 January 2021
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Little Piggy Dragonguy said
Yes it was that post I was looking at and thought you were talking about the results. My bad. 

  

It’s not a problem. As said, I’ve written total nonsense on the forum, I’m surprised when anyone listens to anything I submit.

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8 January 2021
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-Ron’s idea of thanking nominations in the post thread to narrow down options for the end of the year

For this issue, I agree that there should be some way of narrowing down nominations for funniest post/creative but thanks wouldn’t be a good way of doing it.

 

Thanks can’t be changed once done. I say maybe just use that thread to put up nominations and in the December poll, have it be a drop-down with all the listed options. People would need to label which category the link is. And also put a link.

 

Could have it be like, “Starting November, put your nominations for Collab/Funny/Insight in” and give a format for those posts. Then just put them all in. Thanks are flawed so they wouldn’t be good for deciding a vote.

mmm has voiced concerns that if only one person has access to the votes, it’s easy for them to lie about the results. I don’t want that to be a concern, so I was thinking about possibly sharing the results with Holey (or another mod) if that makes people feel more comfortable.

If people are set on having the results be collaborative, I think only one user should get the full results. Any other collaborator should get results without the username attached.

The results are anonymous in a way since only one person knows who submitted what result. I don’t think any more than one person should know. I ran a popularity poll on another site and having fewer people know who voted for what is better overall.

 

-Adding a newbie award (we can talk about wording now or after the poll whichever)

-Re-wording “things that make you go hmmm” to be less ambiguous

I think both of these should be yes or no options. If we go for yes, then we can discuss what scope/name these should have.

 

-Merging history and news

History and news are both equally important so combining both wouldn’t be a slight on either. We already have combined things in the nominations like we put Fan art, fan fiction, fan music, fan videos, and other creative works all under the banner of Creative contribution even though each of those has a different scope/skill-set attached.

The reason being is how the forum is being used. There isn’t a big fan fiction community on this site so to leave that separate from the other creative applications wouldn’t fit this site even though these various things involve different skill sets.

also, I don’t like this line

Of course, if the majority feel news isn’t an important part of the forum, I’ll happily stop wasting my time by sharing it with you, and would encourage others to do the same.

So if we do combine history and news, would news just stop being posted because of this poll that at most, 25 people vote in?

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Starr Shine? said

-Ron’s idea of thanking nominations in the post thread to narrow down options for the end of the year

For this issue, I agree that there should be some way of narrowing down nominations for funniest post/creative but thanks wouldn’t be a good way of doing it.

 

Thanks can’t be changed once done. I say maybe just use that thread to put up nominations and in the December poll, have it be a drop-down with all the listed options. People would need to label which category the link is. And also put a link.

 

Could have it be like, “Starting November, put your nominations for Collab/Funny/Insight in” and give a format for those posts. Then just put them all in. Thanks are flawed so they wouldn’t be good for deciding a vote.

mmm has voiced concerns that if only one person has access to the votes, it’s easy for them to lie about the results. I don’t want that to be a concern, so I was thinking about possibly sharing the results with Holey (or another mod) if that makes people feel more comfortable.

If people are set on having the results be collaborative, I think only one user should get the full results. Any other collaborator should get results without the username attached.

The results are anonymous in a way since only one person knows who submitted what result. I don’t think any more than one person should know. I ran a popularity poll on another site and having fewer people know who voted for what is better overall.

-Adding a newbie award (we can talk about wording now or after the poll whichever)

-Re-wording “things that make you go hmmm” to be less ambiguous

I think both of these should be yes or no options. If we go for yes, then we can discuss what scope/name these should have.

 

-Merging history and news

History and news are both equally important so combining both wouldn’t be a slight on either. We already have combined things in the nominations like we put Fan art, fan fiction, fan music, fan videos, and other creative works all under the banner of Creative contribution even though each of those has a different scope/skill-set attached.

The reason being is how the forum is being used. There isn’t a big fan fiction community on this site so to leave that separate from the other creative applications wouldn’t fit this site even though these various things involve different skill sets.

also, I don’t like this line

Of course, if the majority feel news isn’t an important part of the forum, I’ll happily stop wasting my time by sharing it with you, and would encourage others to do the same.

So if we do combine history and news, would news just stop being posted because of this poll that at most, 25 people vote in?

  

As has been established above, I never said anything about results. Please do not have me as having said I did. 

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