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What is the rumoured archive project?
5 December 2013
10.23pm
meanmistermustard
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mja6758 said
I have to say I agree with mmm. I think the idea of Paul and Ringo hanging around until after George's death to finish off Now and Then and release it would be appalling. No matter how they dressed it up, were it to be the case, it would be the first time in their career that they released that one of them (George) had explicitly vetoed.

Though, you could argue the other three did it to Paul with Let It Be. They just didn't let him hear it until it was too late though.

Never thought of Paul and Ringo finishing it off, i was thinking they would just release what had been finished before George decided enough was enough. 

I thought Paul heard the Let It Be album in advance but never raised his concerns until it was too late. That's how i remember it from the book 'You Never Give Me Your Money'. I don't have the book to pull it out and check.

"Well, probably we'll sell less records, less people'll go to see the film, we'll write less songs, and we'll all die of failure" (John Lennon 8/64)
5 December 2013
11.23pm
trcanberra
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meanmistermustard said

mja6758 said
I have to say I agree with mmm. I think the idea of Paul and Ringo hanging around until after George's death to finish off Now and Then and release it would be appalling. No matter how they dressed it up, were it to be the case, it would be the first time in their career that they released that one of them (George) had explicitly vetoed.

Though, you could argue the other three did it to Paul with Let It Be. They just didn't let him hear it until it was too late though.

Never thought of Paul and Ringo finishing it off, i was thinking they would just release what had been finished before George decided enough was enough. 

I thought Paul heard the Let It Be album in advance but never raised his concerns until it was too late. That's how i remember it from the book 'You Never Give Me Your Money'. I don't have the book to pull it out and check.

And I still take his 'concerns' with a pinch of salt considering how he remade them on Broad Street.

 

6 December 2013
2.18am
whobeatle
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mja6758 said

 

 

Threetles certainly finished Free As A Bird without john leenon, they did have his widows blessing You have no idea what change of heart George Harrison may have had later in life, or his widow once she heard an improved version. Harrison does play on the track

and it supposedly sounds fantastic! Like the bloody Beatles! Why not reserve judgement till you've heard it, if you don't like it simply don't buy it, try not to block others from hearing it would love too.

I have to say I agree with mmm. I think the idea of Paul and Ringo hanging around until after George's death to finish off Now and Then and release it would be appalling. No matter how they dressed it up, were it to be the case, it would be the first time in their career that they released that one of them (George) had explicitly vetoed.

Though, you could argue the other three did it to Paul with Let It Be. They just didn't let him hear it until it was too late though.

 

6 December 2013
2.36am
meanmistermustard
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whobeatle said


mja6758 said

I have to say I agree with mmm. I think the idea of Paul and Ringo hanging around until after George's death to finish off Now and Then and release it would be appalling. No matter how they dressed it up, were it to be the case, it would be the first time in their career that they released that one of them (George) had explicitly vetoed.

Though, you could argue the other three did it to Paul with Let It Be. They just didn't let him hear it until it was too late though.

Threetles certainly finished Free As A Bird without john leenon, they did have his widows blessing You have no idea what change of heart George Harrison may have had later in life, or his widow once she heard an improved version. Harrison does play on the track

 

and it supposedly sounds fantastic! Like the bloody Beatles! Why not reserve judgement till you've heard it, if you don't like it simply don't buy it, try not to block others from hearing it would love too.

 

George does play on the track and he could have had a change of mind but the point is he didn't that we know of and considering his stance towards the track at the time i cant see George coming around to it in the 6 years that he died. Its more likely that Olivia will respect the wishes of her husband for it to remain unreleased, same goes for Carnival Of Light, but i've been dreadfully wrong before and will be again. And despite my dislike of the idea i would buy it because it is the Beatles and i am the same schmuck who has all the BBC stuff on bootleg yet still went out and got the 2013 editions after getting excited by it.

I fail to see how expressing my opinion is blocking it being issued or stoping others from hearing it. Apple certainly aren't going to listen to me, and even if they did my first comment would be for them to stop licensing shite merchandise whilst ignoring whats in the vaults from the '60s, which would put them in the huff.  If people want to see it released  and hear it then i have no problem with that, i just fail to see why it needs to be released, we had the reunion.

 

"Well, probably we'll sell less records, less people'll go to see the film, we'll write less songs, and we'll all die of failure" (John Lennon 8/64)
6 December 2013
2.55am
IveJustSeenAFaceo
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The more I hear the idea, the more I love the collection of all the videos idea. Maybe coupled with the performance scenes from A Hard Day's Night and Help!. I really would love a Let It Be DVD release though. Anyone know what's stopping it?

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6 December 2013
3.52am
trcanberra
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IveJustSeenAFaceo said
The more I hear the idea, the more I love the collection of all the videos idea. Maybe coupled with the performance scenes from A Hard Day's Night and Help!. I really would love a Let It Be DVD release though. Anyone know what's stopping it?

No – we have had the speculation, like Paul not wanting the world to remember the fights – but they were all in Anthology anyway, so I'm not sure it's that.

I put another Paul quote in a thread here which mentioned how long Rockshow took to get an issue; where he says they are not running a shop and things will get released when he feels it is the right time artistically – so maybe that is it – we are waiting for some sort of planetary conjunction or whatever Apple use to plan their stuff.  They certainly don't seem to have any feel or care for what the remaining fans want.

 

6 December 2013
11.31am
meanmistermustard
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trcanberra said

IveJustSeenAFaceo said
The more I hear the idea, the more I love the collection of all the videos idea. Maybe coupled with the performance scenes from A Hard Day's Night and Help!. I really would love a Let It Be DVD release though. Anyone know what's stopping it?

No – we have had the speculation, like Paul not wanting the world to remember the fights – but they were all in Anthology anyway, so I'm not sure it's that.

I put another Paul quote in a thread here which mentioned how long Rockshow took to get an issue; where he says they are not running a shop and things will get released when he feels it is the right time artistically – so maybe that is it – we are waiting for some sort of planetary conjunction or whatever Apple use to plan their stuff.  They certainly don't seem to have any feel or care for what the remaining fans want.

 

They go by drawing from a hat, they put in 4 pieces of paper, all blank, and then pull one out, if it comes out with writing on it they think about doing something. 

 

"Well, probably we'll sell less records, less people'll go to see the film, we'll write less songs, and we'll all die of failure" (John Lennon 8/64)
6 December 2013
1.32pm
meanmistermustard
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If Paul and Ringo were to overdub onto the rejected 1995 Now And Then we would have a 2 Beatle reunion overdubbing onto a 3 Beatle reunion overdubbing on to a John Lennon demo to give us a 4 Beatle reunion. 

"Well, probably we'll sell less records, less people'll go to see the film, we'll write less songs, and we'll all die of failure" (John Lennon 8/64)
6 December 2013
9.33pm
trcanberra
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meanmistermustard said
If Paul and Ringo were to overdub onto the rejected 1995 Now And Then we would have a 2 Beatle reunion overdubbing onto a 3 Beatle reunion overdubbing on to a John Lennon demo to give us a 4 Beatle reunion. 

And I still reckon Tootles sounds more musical than Threetles, so let's do this!

 

6 December 2013
10.51pm
IveJustSeenAFaceo
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meanmistermustard said
They go by drawing from a hat, they put in 4 pieces of paper, all blank, and then pull one out, if it comes out with writing on it they think about doing something. 

That sounds accurate, except I'm pretty sure it's more than 4 pieces of paper. If it was only 4, they would put something out every so often. I'd bet it's more of a 1/154 chance. 

 

 

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6 December 2013
11.16pm
meanmistermustard
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IveJustSeenAFaceo said

meanmistermustard said
They go by drawing from a hat, they put in 4 pieces of paper, all blank, and then pull one out, if it comes out with writing on it they think about doing something. 

That sounds accurate, except I'm pretty sure it's more than 4 pieces of paper. If it was only 4, they would put something out every so often. I'd bet it's more of a 1/154 chance. 

 

 

All four pieces are blank, Apple leave nothing to chance, they are very exhaustive in their efforts to release nothing.

"Well, probably we'll sell less records, less people'll go to see the film, we'll write less songs, and we'll all die of failure" (John Lennon 8/64)
6 December 2013
11.18pm
IveJustSeenAFaceo
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meanmistermustard said

IveJustSeenAFaceo said

meanmistermustard said
They go by drawing from a hat, they put in 4 pieces of paper, all blank, and then pull one out, if it comes out with writing on it they think about doing something. 

That sounds accurate, except I'm pretty sure it's more than 4 pieces of paper. If it was only 4, they would put something out every so often. I'd bet it's more of a 1/154 chance. 

 

 

All four pieces are blank, Apple leave nothing to chance, they are very exhaustive in their efforts to release nothing.

So true. Sad, but so true.

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7 December 2013
9.34am
whobeatle
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meanmistermustard said

 

 

Because Man, you are parsing words, in a debate to make your point of view seem the logical one. You can have your opinion,I even see some validity in it. But here is my point of view, in a nutshell at least. That murderer took Lennons life and through a variety of circumstance, Improved technology, softening views amongst the three surviving Beatles, Yoko's cooperation, the desire for money,particularly on Harrisons part, all the unreleased tracks from sessions, plus some choice alternate takes like Strawberry Fields, and a few New Beatles Songs Got done, oh my God, I got giddy watching that ABC special in America! 7 minutes until the premier of the first new Beatles song in 25 years! OHMYGODD@@@@@, George Martin put it well I thought, he said, and I paraphrase, well (Free As A Bird) wasn't as good as Strawberry Fields, but it was better than

some of the number One's we had, I hadn't wanted to produce it, but after I heard the record I wished I had. Martin said. Now in regards to Now and then, the song was less complete than the other two, and had a horrific buzz on the track, you don't know why Harrison vetoed it.Presumably, it was because of one, technical difficulties with the buzz on the track, later solved when a cleaner copy surfaced after the tapes stolen by Fred Seaman were recovered, so that eliminated one big problem, second, so much work was needed on Now and Then and the Beatlels faced a deadline for the Anthology release, which is no longer a problem.Third, Harrison felt some rewriting was necessary, or some additional writing to fill in some of the lyrical gaps, true, we think Harrison and McCartney quibbled over this.But eventually McCartney filled in the gaps, the forthcoming release does feature George Harrison on Guitar at least, perhaps on vocals as well, Jeff Lynne, Olivia, Yoko, Ringo Paul the record company, everybody is behind it, it supposedly sounds great, so whats not to like? what possible reason is there to rain on this parade? For all you know, the enormous amount of money the Harrisons and Starkeys spend, maybe they need an extra 20 million, you dont know, what conversations these people have had.I am just happy as hell they are going to finally release what they planned nearly 20 years ago, and millions of other people will be as well.This will be the final "New" Beatles single in history, what a gift, who would want to stop that? what a wonderful wonderful gift. Furthermore, they only did two reunion songs initially, three will be much better, at least we have a final EP if not an album Hip Hip thank you Beatles, and I'm sure George Harrison would be pleased or they wouldn't even have considered it.

If Paul and Ringo were to overdub onto the rejected 1995 Now And Then we would have a 2 Beatle reunion overdubbing onto a 3 Beatle reunion overdubbing on to a John Lennon demo to give us a 4 Beatle reunion. 

 

7 December 2013
9.58am
trcanberra
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^ I have NO idea what you just said, but I AM intrigued :)

7 December 2013
11.32am
meanmistermustard
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From wiki

In March 1995, the three surviving Beatles began work on "Now and Then" by recording a rough backing track that was to be used as an overdub. However, after only two days of recording, all work on the song ceased and plans for a third reunion single were scrapped permanently.

According to McCartney, George Harrison "didn't want to do it," possibly because new verses would have had to be written. Producer Jeff Lynne reported that "It was one day—one afternoon, really—messing with it. The song had a chorus but is almost totally lacking in verses. We did the backing track, a rough go that we really didn't finish." An additional factor behind scrapping the song was a technical defect in the original recording.

 

which uses an article in The Express newspaper which adds 

Those who’ve heard it say it’s like a bit of a verse and a chorus, very skeletal,” said one.

“George just didn’t want to rework it because it’s not a matter of putting some vocals, or a bit of bass and drums to finish it. With this, you have to really build the song. The genius of The Beatles was predicated upon Lennon and McCartney. What was normal in the early days at least was that John would come in with a fragment and Paul would turn it into a hit – or vice versa.

(which reminds me of Free As A Bird).

The Beatles always worked on all four agreeing and here we have George very clearly saying no so why should this be any different, why would Olivia go against that? (which opens up a can of worms regarding the original 1994/95 reunion and whether Yoko should have approved it).

Money-wise. if needed, Olivia could sanction Let It Be or any other project, be it Beatles or solo-George (tho that would probably make less), rake it in and live happily for the rest of her life (tho im sure the Living In The Material World project would have given her some financial aide on top of Beatles and non-Beatles royalties).

As for the fans, the reunion happened in 1995 & 1996 for the fans (I was an uber-excited 14 year old about it all, i have tons of press-clippings from the time, i remember watching the 30 minute ITV documentary about the group which at the end premiered Free As A Bird and being so thrilled, and then the 5 minute showing of Real Love months later. I played FAAB & RL over and over).

Why should we get another, the whole occassion would be so heavily diluted because it's been done.  Welding on new bits of drum, bass, percussion, keyboards etc over an unfinished demo of John's that George vetoed because it couldn't be saved is where I say "just leave it" (considering the reports of how the song was left new parts would have to be added).

But what about those who missed out on that, the new fans? Well, what about those fans in 60 years time, 100 years time, who will miss out on reunion #2? Are Apple and the Beatles kids to sanction a reunion stitched together from the all over the place to give them that every 20 years until the end of time? It becomes ridiculous, never mind treating the 1960's Beatles like shit and cheapening their legacy. The Beatles were always about moving on, never doing the same thing twice, never putting out crap for the sake of it.

At some point fans have to move on, accept its over, there is no getting back together again, no last last hurrah, no one more new song.

 

Thats where i sit. If folk disagree then fair enough, i respect that, i don't agree but i respect it. Over this, whobeatle, we will never agree. 

"Well, probably we'll sell less records, less people'll go to see the film, we'll write less songs, and we'll all die of failure" (John Lennon 8/64)
7 December 2013
5.57pm
Linde
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That would be horrible and it wouldn't really add anything. Plus it wouldn't be the Beatles. I personally really dislike Free As A Bird, though the video is fab, and with Real Love it's the other way around, but at least back then they were with three. Those two songs didn't really add anything either in my eyes. I don't need to hear another unfinished John song being ''finished'' by Paul and Ringo without John and George being able to have input.

7 December 2013
9.51pm
trcanberra
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Linde said
That would be horrible and it wouldn't really add anything. Plus it wouldn't be the Beatles. I personally really dislike Free As A Bird, though the video is fab, and with Real Love it's the other way around, but at least back then they were with three. Those two songs didn't really add anything either in my eyes. I don't need to hear another unfinished John song being ''finished'' by Paul and Ringo without John and George being able to have input.

Which is ok for you.  However, if this happened, I would love it – I think those two songs are great.  All that 'has to be the four of them' thing is almost laughable in light of how they recorded The Beatles album.

 

7 December 2013
11.04pm
meanmistermustard
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trcanberra said

Linde said
That would be horrible and it wouldn't really add anything. Plus it wouldn't be the Beatles. I personally really dislike Free As A Bird, though the video is fab, and with Real Love it's the other way around, but at least back then they were with three. Those two songs didn't really add anything either in my eyes. I don't need to hear another unfinished John song being ''finished'' by Paul and Ringo without John and George being able to have input.

Which is ok for you.  However, if this happened, I would love it – I think those two songs are great.  All that 'has to be the four of them' thing is almost laughable in light of how they recorded The Beatles album.

 

It's not that all four have to be on it, more that all four have to say yes or not raise objection to a project which was The Beatles way of working. In regards to Now and Then George said no. That should be far more crucial than anything else. 

 

Edit: Which actually raises the question of whether or not projects such as the Let It Be dvd or Carnival Of Light should be released. George was against both seeing the light of day as much as Now and Then.

"Well, probably we'll sell less records, less people'll go to see the film, we'll write less songs, and we'll all die of failure" (John Lennon 8/64)
8 December 2013
1.39am
trcanberra
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^ Ah well, maybe we just stick a label on it that says "The Beat Boys present ….".

8 December 2013
1.28pm
whobeatle
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Well time will tell whether we get to hear Now and then or not. I can list a dozen reasons or more why it would be a great thing. People here or anywhere can be selective in which facts or ideas they choose to ignore. For one thing if we do get to hear it, I suspect it will be more of a Lennon & McCartney Beatles song, By necessity, because there are gaps of unfinished lyrics and melody in Lennon's demo. If it sounds great, and McCartney got joy doing it, if Ringo is ok with it, if Yoko is ok with it, and Olivia Harrison, and Harrison's pal Jeff Lynne, and if the record sounds great why the heck not.It hurts no one and offers great, great joy to millions of people. One last great hurrah for the greatest show on earth. Besides all that, we don't know what conversations Harrison had with McCartney, Ringo, Jeff Lynne or Mrs Harrison before he died. One objection supposedly was the deadline, another was having to write another verse. Well the deadline is moot, and if a newly written verse gives us one more John Lennon song, and one last Beatles song, I say fantastic. I would go so far as to say, hands down it is the most important unreleased Beatles track left in their entire archive. Hands down by far. I am praying and hoping that this scuttlebut and things people have told me are true. McCartney is for it, Starr, Jeff Lynne, why on earth should any of us think we know better than them, or what Harrison actually thought of believed. Free As A Bird and Real Love were nice Beatles records and perhaps Now and then, with McCartney's thoughtful input and emotion will make it a better record than the other two.One of the big components in the Beatles was Lennon and McCartney writing and singing together, and Free As A Bird and Real Love for the most part did not provide that for the fans.

 

On another note, a Beatles journalist gave me a totally different scenario for what Universal intends to do with the Beatles catalogue, the phrase "Milk the cow" was used.

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