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The Beatles Breakup
31 May 2014
7.57pm
vonbontee
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vonbontee said

"Into the Sky with Diamonds" said:

Vonbontee, your assumption that Lennon would have eventually moved on to heroin is certainly realistic.

Ono, however, was the enabler.

Another woman might have steered him straight, no?

Mm, I don't think that's necessarily the case. I mean, who's to say that it wasn't John who essentially got Yoko addicted? She wasn't even a smoker when she met him! I'd just say their mutual adventurousness was to blame.

Also, Cynthia couldn't get John to stop doing massive quantities of acid, or getting way too drunk when he wanted to, and apparently May Pang couldn't either. So I don't see that any woman could've steered him straight if he didn't want to be.

I just want to play. I’d like to think I could work opposite Sinatra, B.B. King, the Beatles, or a polka band... - Jazz musician Rahsaan Roland Kirk, 1967
31 May 2014
7.59pm
Annadog40
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ahdn_paul_06 Maybe if that women was a police officer and put him in jail then they could

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vonbontee

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31 May 2014
10.50pm
Into the Sky with Diamonds
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Vonbontee said, "Also, Cynthia couldn't get John to stop doing massive quantities of acid, or getting way too drunk when he wanted to, and apparently May Pang couldn't either. So I don't see that any woman could've steered him straight if he didn't want to be."

Cynthia and May Pang were (are) lovely women who nevertheless don't have strong personalities - and Lennon needed a strong personality. A woman who measured up to John could have set him straight (IMHO).

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vonbontee
"Into the Sky with Diamonds" (the Beatles and the Race to the Moon – a history)
31 May 2014
11.39pm
vonbontee
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Hm, I guess that sounds reasonable enough. Hey, there aren't any anecdotes about John overindulging any ANYTHING between 1975 and 1980, are there? (I haven't encountered any that I can recall; I haven't read every John Lennon bio out there, though.)

I just want to play. I’d like to think I could work opposite Sinatra, B.B. King, the Beatles, or a polka band... - Jazz musician Rahsaan Roland Kirk, 1967
1 June 2014
1.27am
Into the Sky with Diamonds
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 How about sloth and house-husbandry?

"Into the Sky with Diamonds" (the Beatles and the Race to the Moon – a history)
6 June 2014
5.18pm
thisbirdhasflown
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The way I see it, yoko-ono_01led John astray, George got angry about writing, Paul was mad at Phil Spector for The Long And Winding Road, and Richard didn't care anymore.

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6 June 2014
5.20pm
Annadog40
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Martha broke up the Beatles

 

Look at that diabolical stare. She is pure evil!

Never say never, cause it's never 'never'

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6 June 2014
5.29pm
thisbirdhasflown
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Martha broke up the Beatles  

Look at that diabolical stare. She is pure evil!

 

@Annadog40 Obviously, you're more of a cat person yourself.

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Annadog40
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6 June 2014
6.34pm
parlance
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Into the Sky with Diamonds said
Vonbontee said, "Also, Cynthia couldn't get John to stop doing massive quantities of acid, or getting way too drunk when he wanted to, and apparently May Pang couldn't either. So I don't see that any woman could've steered him straight if he didn't want to be."

Cynthia and May Pang were (are) lovely women who nevertheless don't have strong personalities - and Lennon needed a strong personality. A woman who measured up to John could have set him straight (IMHO).

This reasoning makes me deeply uncomfortable. It implies that Cynthia and May were lacking or that somehow John's erratic behavior was their responsibility. They strike me as strong women in their own right, but John as a special case. Also, how do you define "setting him straight?"

parlance

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thisbirdhasflown, Annadog40

Beware of sadness. It can hit you. It can hurt you. Make you sore and what is more, that is not what you are here for. - George

Check out my fan video for Paul's song "Appreciate" at YouTube and Vimeo.

6 June 2014
6.55pm
thisbirdhasflown
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parlance said

Into the Sky with Diamonds said
Vonbontee said, "Also, Cynthia couldn't get John to stop doing massive quantities of acid, or getting way too drunk when he wanted to, and apparently May Pang couldn't either. So I don't see that any woman could've steered him straight if he didn't want to be."

Cynthia and May Pang were (are) lovely women who nevertheless don't have strong personalities - and Lennon needed a strong personality. A woman who measured up to John could have set him straight (IMHO).

This reasoning makes me deeply uncomfortable. It implies that Cynthia and May were lacking or that somehow John's erratic behavior was their responsibility. They strike me as strong women in their own right, but John as a special case. Also, how do you define "setting him straight?"

parlance

Parlance has a point. People are just putting the blame on Cynthia and May. It was John's fault in the first place. Plus there's other factors besides.

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parlance
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6 June 2014
7.03pm
IveJustSeenAFaceo
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parlance said

Into the Sky with Diamonds said
Vonbontee said, "Also, Cynthia couldn't get John to stop doing massive quantities of acid, or getting way too drunk when he wanted to, and apparently May Pang couldn't either. So I don't see that any woman could've steered him straight if he didn't want to be."

Cynthia and May Pang were (are) lovely women who nevertheless don't have strong personalities - and Lennon needed a strong personality. A woman who measured up to John could have set him straight (IMHO).

This reasoning makes me deeply uncomfortable. It implies that Cynthia and May were lacking or that somehow John's erratic behavior was their responsibility. They strike me as strong women in their own right, but John as a special case. Also, how do you define "setting him straight?"

parlance

That's not what I took it as at all. It was simply stating that they honestly didn't have as strong of a personality as John. John had a very strong personality, and I honestly agree with ISWD. 

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6 June 2014
7.12pm
thisbirdhasflown
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IveJustSeenAFaceo said

parlance said

Into the Sky with Diamonds said
Vonbontee said, "Also, Cynthia couldn't get John to stop doing massive quantities of acid, or getting way too drunk when he wanted to, and apparently May Pang couldn't either. So I don't see that any woman could've steered him straight if he didn't want to be."

Cynthia and May Pang were (are) lovely women who nevertheless don't have strong personalities - and Lennon needed a strong personality. A woman who measured up to John could have set him straight (IMHO).

This reasoning makes me deeply uncomfortable. It implies that Cynthia and May were lacking or that somehow John's erratic behavior was their responsibility. They strike me as strong women in their own right, but John as a special case. Also, how do you define "setting him straight?"

parlance

That's not what I took it as at all. It was simply stating that they honestly didn't have as strong of a personality as John. John had a very strong personality, and I honestly agree with ISWD.

I think that they are al strong people, but you can't put the blame on one in particular. It was John's fault he did the drugs, and others could have set him straight too. You can't put it all on Cynthia and May Pang.

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parlance
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6 June 2014
7.18pm
parlance
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IveJustSeenAFaceo said

That's not what I took it as at all. 

 

How do you reconcile the comment about someone needing to "set him straight," then? There was a definite comparison being made, and the inference was that Cynthia and May felt short: they were nice enough, but they weren't enough to handle him. Which I think is unfair. I think most people would be unable/unwilling to deal with the pressures of fame, and in Cynthia's case, raising a child, while also living with someone who was reportedly abusive on top of being a drug addict.

Also, I don't associate the need to be set straight with strength.

parlance

Beware of sadness. It can hit you. It can hurt you. Make you sore and what is more, that is not what you are here for. - George

Check out my fan video for Paul's song "Appreciate" at YouTube and Vimeo.

6 June 2014
7.27pm
thisbirdhasflown
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parlance said

IveJustSeenAFaceo said

 

That's not what I took it as at all. 

 

How do you reconcile the comment about someone needing to "set him straight," then? There was a definite comparison being made, and the inference was that Cynthia and May felt short: they were nice enough, but they weren't enough to handle him. Which I think is unfair. I think most people would be unable/unwilling to deal with the pressures of fame, and in Cynthia's case, raising a child, while also living with someone who was reportedly abusive on top of being a drug addict.

Also, I don't associate being needed to be set straight with strength.

parlance

It's very difficult to rehabilitate a drug addict. Don't take Cynthia and May like it was their obligation. It wasn't. Somebody else could have helped John to rehabilitate. They didn't. There's more to blame than just 2 people.

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6 June 2014
7.31pm
parlance
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thisbirdhasflown said

It's very difficult to rehabilitate a drug addict. Don't take Cynthia and May like it was their obligation. It wasn't. Somebody else could have helped John to rehabilitate. They didn't. There's more to blame than just 2 people.

I wasn't saying John was weak for being addicted. My point is there's a narrative that John was strong and it took strong people to handle him, and Cynthia and May were somehow lacking in character where Yoko wasn't. And in this narrative, what people associate with "strength" is really nothing more than abusive behavior (emotionally and physically). That's what I object to.

parlance

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thisbirdhasflown

Beware of sadness. It can hit you. It can hurt you. Make you sore and what is more, that is not what you are here for. - George

Check out my fan video for Paul's song "Appreciate" at YouTube and Vimeo.

6 June 2014
7.39pm
Expert Textpert
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It looks like May herself was concerned that she was not strong enough to handle John. In her book, she writes, "I also hoped that I would never have to call Yoko and ask for her help because I did not have the ability to speak to John the way she did."

"This Beatles talk bores me to death." --John Lennon

6 June 2014
7.40pm
parlance
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Expert Textpert said
It looks like May herself was concerned that she was not strong enough to handle John. 

Yes, I think a lot of abused women see themselves that way, and it's unfortunate.

parlance

Beware of sadness. It can hit you. It can hurt you. Make you sore and what is more, that is not what you are here for. - George

Check out my fan video for Paul's song "Appreciate" at YouTube and Vimeo.

6 June 2014
7.41pm
thisbirdhasflown
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parlance said

thisbirdhasflown said

It's very difficult to rehabilitate a drug addict. Don't take Cynthia and May like it was their obligation. It wasn't. Somebody else could have helped John to rehabilitate. They didn't. There's more to blame than just 2 people.

I wasn't saying John was weak for being addicted. My point is there's a narrative that John was strong and it took strong people to handle him, and Cynthia and May were somehow lacking in character where Yoko wasn't. And in this narrative, what people associate with "strength" is really nothing more than abusive behavior (emotionally and physically). That's what I object to.

parlance

Yes, I see your point. They did lack some character. And you can't call "strength" abusive behavior. It's just that they weren't the only weak ones. There were several other weak members and Yoko fixed it. Even when you're addicted, you can still be strong with strong people, and Yoko was strong.

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6 June 2014
7.43pm
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parlance said

Expert Textpert said
It looks like May herself was concerned that she was not strong enough to handle John. 

Yes, I think a lot of abused women see themselves that way, and it's unfortunate.

parlance

She said this at the beginning of their trip to LA, before he did anything.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death." --John Lennon

6 June 2014
7.48pm
thisbirdhasflown
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Expert Textpert said

parlance said

Expert Textpert said
It looks like May herself was concerned that she was not strong enough to handle John. 

Yes, I think a lot of abused women see themselves that way, and it's unfortunate.

parlance

She said this at the beginning of their trip to LA, before he did anything.

There is truth in this, Expert Texpert. If she was abused, she may not have been strong enough to help John because she needed help herself.

thisbirdhasflown

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