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The Beatles Breakup
6 February 2012
7.22pm
seaglass eyes sunny smile
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a-hard-days-night-ringo-8They make those? a-hard-days-night-ringo-12

"Now and then, though, someone does begin to grow differently. Instead of down, his feet grow up toward the sky. But we do our best to discourage awkward things like that." "What happens to them?" insisted Milo. "Oddly enough, they often grow ten times the size of everyone else," said Alec thoughtfully, "and I’ve heard that they walk among the stars." –The Phantom Tollbooth
6 February 2012
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vonbontee
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robert said:

In terms of the break-up, what Yoko did was get John hooked on heroin.

I have to take issue with this. John was an enthusiastic experimenter with substances for much if not most of his postadolescence, from booze to speed to pot to LSD. I have to believe such escalation would've led him to try heroin eventually, all by himself. His friends Eric Clapton and Keith Richards, among many others in the rock scene at the time, were beginning to abuse it themselves right around that time.

I would say John got himself hooked. Yoko's introducing him to heroin (through Robert Fraser or whoever) was simply a matter of her being in the right place at the right time.

I just want to play. I’d like to think I could work opposite Sinatra, B.B. King, the Beatles, or a polka band... - Jazz musician Rahsaan Roland Kirk, 1967
7 February 2012
2.11am
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Seeglass eyes, yes, that T-shirt exists!

 

Vonbontee, your assumption that Lennon would have eventually moved on to heroin is certainly realistic.

Ono, however, was the enabler.

Another woman might have steered him straight, no?

"Into the Sky with Diamonds" (the Beatles and the Race to the Moon – a history)
7 February 2012
2.31am
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He wasn't being satisfied by Cynthia, certainly. The more I think of this, I think that blaming Yoko's the easy way out. You have to realise that they were done… maybe after Let It Be. Perhaps, just perhaps, if there's no Yoko, they feel no need to make one final album the Pepper way, because the White Album would have been the same. They might have ended in May 69. I mean, if you need a scapegoat, she works, but as a reasonable reason, you need dig deeper.

I tried to think of something powerful and moving… and failed.  "You were given a choice between war and dishonor - you chose dishonor, and you shall have war" - Winston Churchill
7 February 2012
3.58am
GniknuS
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She also works as a scapegoat for John's benefit, meaning that he seems to sort of avoid getting any of the blame. I'd be willing to bet that if we took a vote (which I believe we've done before) that John would get more votes than anyone in terms of one person who did more to break up the group than anyone else. I'd still say that Yoko was his biggest reason to leave, so indirectly...but that debate could just go in circles.
I think ultimately the Beatles were just four guys who made music together who wanted and believed they could make music on their own. What broke them up is that they grew up into four individuals with three very distinct styles of music. What makes the White Album so cool is that each if these styles got to be really fleshed out. Abbey Road was a great group effort but it definitely leaned towards Paul's cleaner style of music. I don't blame John for not wanting to continue with that style because it wasn't really his own, as Plastic Ono Band certainly showed. They certainly could have handled the breakup better but I think it's hard to imagine what kind of pressure they were under.

I sat on a rug, biding my time, drinking her wine
7 February 2012
4.57am
kedame
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vonbontee said:

I have to take issue with this. John was an enthusiastic experimenter with substances for much if not most of his postadolescence, from booze to speed to pot to LSD. I have to believe such escalation would've led him to try heroin eventually, all by himself. His friends Eric Clapton and Keith Richards, among many others in the rock scene at the time, were beginning to abuse it themselves right around that time.

I would say John got himself hooked. Yoko's introducing him to heroin (through Robert Fraser or whoever) was simply a matter of her being in the right place at the right time.

Right on. I hate when someone says x got y hooked on drugs, when clearly, y has an addictive and adventurous personality anyway. Yoko might have introduced the drug to John, but she has helped him get clean (relatively clean for John, anyway).

 

GniknuS said:

She also works as a scapegoat for John's benefit, meaning that he seems to sort of avoid getting any of the blame. I'd be willing to bet that if we took a vote (which I believe we've done before) that John would get more votes than anyone in terms of one person who did more to break up the group than anyone else. I'd still say that Yoko was his biggest reason to leave, so indirectly...but that debate could just go in circles.
I think ultimately the Beatles were just four guys who made music together who wanted and believed they could make music on their own. What broke them up is that they grew up into four individuals with three very distinct styles of music. What makes the White Album so cool is that each if these styles got to be really fleshed out. Abbey Road was a great group effort but it definitely leaned towards Paul's cleaner style of music. I don't blame John for not wanting to continue with that style because it wasn't really his own, as Plastic Ono Band certainly showed. They certainly could have handled the breakup better but I think it's hard to imagine what kind of pressure they were under.

Why are you suddenly in my head? Like I said, I don't blame Yoko, per se, but it is pointless to say she had nothing to do with the break up, even if was just to give John the wherewithal to finally cut the ties that bind.

"You can manicure a cat but can you caticure a man?" John Lennon- Skywriting by Word of Mouth
7 February 2012
3.41pm
vonbontee
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"Into the Sky with Diamonds" said:

Vonbontee, your assumption that Lennon would have eventually moved on to heroin is certainly realistic.

Ono, however, was the enabler.

Another woman might have steered him straight, no?

Mm, I don't think that's necessarily the case. I mean, who's to say that it wasn't John who essentially got Yoko addicted? She wasn't even a smoker when she met him! I'd just say their mutual adventurousness was to blame.

I just want to play. I’d like to think I could work opposite Sinatra, B.B. King, the Beatles, or a polka band... - Jazz musician Rahsaan Roland Kirk, 1967
7 February 2012
6.25pm
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Ive always thought John and Yoko becoming hooked on heroin was a mutual occurance due to the pain of Yoko's miscarriage in late '68 and the hatred of Yoko from those closest to John. John was well into drugs before Yoko came along and i think it was only a matter of time before he moved up, the thrill of getting a greater high.

Its difficult balancing what John said as he would often contradict himself but he did say that as soon as they stopped touring he didnt know what to do so went to make How I Won The War and continued in the band. Yoko was the one who gave him the confidence to step out and finally leave.

But as said many times previously in this thread it would be incorrect to suggest Yoko either was neither not responsible or completely to blame. They were all growing apart and had different ventures to explore.

If someone were to study the split indepth they would find tons of reasons why it had to end. Pauls desire to back on the road caused friction with John & George who were heavily against the idea. Supposedly there was illfeeling relating back to the Maharishi saga. John pretty much refused to play on Maxwell's Silver Hammer, a song that caused more tension due to Paul spending nigh-on an eternity getting the right feel for the song. All small things but they build up along with everything else.

 

Equally Yoko wasnt the sole reason why there was no reunion. There was never a moment when all 4 were willing or able to get back together. The nearest they got to one was the Ringo album and it didnt even occur to George, Ringo or John to ask Paul to play on Im The Greatest.

Don’t make your love suffer insecurities, trade the baggage of self to set another one free. ('Paper Skin' - Kendall Payne)
7 February 2012
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meanmistermustard said:

Equally Yoko wasnt the sole reason why there was no reunion. There was never a moment when all 4 were willing or able to get back together. The nearest they got to one was the Ringo album and it didnt even occur to George, Ringo or John to ask Paul to play on Im The Greatest.

There was the Eric Clapton wedding. Paul, George, and Ringo attended. John would later say that he never got the invitation.

Golly gee wiz, where could that invitation have gone....

"Into the Sky with Diamonds" (the Beatles and the Race to the Moon – a history)
7 February 2012
7.14pm
The Walrus
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Similarly, a few times Paul called John about possible reunions towards the end of John's time as a househusband, but never got through to John.

And I neeeeeeeeed her all the time
7 February 2012
8.47pm
meanmistermustard
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Both very good examples of nearly reunions which goes to show there was never 1 time when all 4 were even in the same room. And even if John had gotten the invitation would he have even turned up (he hints that he might of)? He wasnt moving in social circles at the time, probably why he didnt get the invite. There was also the Bangladesh concert. John was meant to appear and only backed out at the last minute. With Paul there are contrasting stories.  In the mid-seventies John was meant to turn up and sign the papers that would finally dissolve the beatles but backed out at the last minute claiming the stars didnt align or whatever whilst 3 beatles waited.

There was always something that stopped it happening and it wasnt just Yoko. I still think George would have been the biggest barrier to any 4-beatle-get-together: differences with John and Paul, not wanting to revisit beatlemania, slowly developing a resentment of the recording business (especially at the end of the 70's - tho a reunion may have sparked some change in his own attitude towards it, and the attitudes of the music executives & the general public towards George).

No scrap that - the biggest reason for no 4-beatle-reunion was John's murder.

Don’t make your love suffer insecurities, trade the baggage of self to set another one free. ('Paper Skin' - Kendall Payne)
7 February 2012
8.55pm
vonbontee
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"Into the Sky with Diamonds" said:

Golly gee wiz, where could that invitation have gone....

Well, Yoko-bashers will tell you that she intercepted it before John ever saw it, which is possible.

Or maybe John simply didn't want to attend and lied about it. Or maybe Clapton didn't invite him, or maybe the post office lost the invitation in the mail. Who knows? Nobody.

I just want to play. I’d like to think I could work opposite Sinatra, B.B. King, the Beatles, or a polka band... - Jazz musician Rahsaan Roland Kirk, 1967
7 February 2012
9.14pm
Zig
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Yoko’s a concept by which we measure our John
I'll say it again.
Yoko’s a concept by which we measure our John

I don't blame her for Alfred

I don't blame her for Julia

I don't blame her for Mimi

I don't blame her for George Smith

I don't blame her for Stuart

I don't blame her for Cynthia

I don't blame her for Brian

I don't blame her for Pete Best

I don't blame her for Macca

I don't blame her for Harrison

I don't blame her for Starkey

I don't blame her for Mardas

I don't blame her for Spector

I don't blame her for Maharishi

I don't blame her for Beatles

 

Well, just not totally.

To the fountain of perpetual mirth, Let it roll for all its worth.

Every Little Thing you buy from Amazon or iTunes will help the Beatles Bible if you use these links: Amazon | iTunes

7 February 2012
11.17pm
vonbontee
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OK lol…Thank you for that bit of levity, Zig! apple01

I know I always get overly defensive on Yoko-related threads...

I just want to play. I’d like to think I could work opposite Sinatra, B.B. King, the Beatles, or a polka band... - Jazz musician Rahsaan Roland Kirk, 1967
7 February 2012
11.54pm
Into the Sky with Diamonds
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Zig said:

Yoko’s a concept by which we measure our John
I'll say it again.
Yoko’s a concept by which we measure our John

I don't blame her for Alfred

I don't blame her for Julia

I don't blame her for Mimi

I don't blame her for George Smith

I don't blame her for Stuart

I don't blame her for Cynthia

I don't blame her for Brian

I don't blame her for Pete Best

I don't blame her for Macca

I don't blame her for Harrison

I don't blame her for Starkey

I don't blame her for Mardas

I don't blame her for Spector

I don't blame her for Maharishi

I don't blame her for Beatles

 

Well, just not totally.

Very clever - love it; except that I do enjoy blaming her.

"Into the Sky with Diamonds" (the Beatles and the Race to the Moon – a history)
8 February 2012
9.29pm
SexySadieDontPassMeBy
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I honestly think that they started going separate ways after Brian's death.

8 February 2012
10.13pm
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Well… I'm writing an essay on the whole Beatles-breakup topic. This girl Tess is writing hers blaming Yoko, and I'm doing the counter-argument. We got it approved by my English teacher, who is officially an amazing person. We're supposed to write on a "controversial subject." I think he was looking for more abortion-gun control-death penalty type controversy, but instead he's getting Yoko Ono and this other girl's Sherlock Holmes essay. a-hard-days-night-george-10

I'm really excited, this is gonna be the most fun essay I've ever written.paul-mccartney

plus, I've obviously already done a ton of reasearch.

"Now and then, though, someone does begin to grow differently. Instead of down, his feet grow up toward the sky. But we do our best to discourage awkward things like that." "What happens to them?" insisted Milo. "Oddly enough, they often grow ten times the size of everyone else," said Alec thoughtfully, "and I’ve heard that they walk among the stars." –The Phantom Tollbooth
11 February 2012
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Chiming in: No, I don't either.

If I seem to act unkind, it's only me, it's not my mind that is confusing things.

7 June 2012
12.59pm
fabfouremily
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No, it wasn´t entirely her fault, anyone that says it was is sortta in denial because the break-up of such a genius band cannot be down to one person. But, she did play her part, I don´t think I need to say why, do I? By being in the studio 24/7 when it was always clear from the start that the wives/girlfriends would never be there while they recorded etc.....

So no, it wasn´t her fault, but she did contribute to all the other matters that were going on and that resulted in their break-up.

''We're just knocked out. We heard about the sell out. You gotta get an album out, you owe it to the people. We're so happy we can hardly count.''

7 June 2012
5.14pm
robert
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seaglass eyes sunny smile said
Well… I'm writing an essay on the whole Beatles-breakup topic. This girl Tess is writing hers blaming Yoko, and I'm doing the counter-argument. We got it approved by my English teacher, who is officially an amazing person. We're supposed to write on a "controversial subject." I think he was looking for more abortion-gun control-death penalty type controversy, but instead he's getting Yoko Ono and this other girl's Sherlock Holmes essay. a-hard-days-night-george-10

I'm really excited, this is gonna be the most fun essay I've ever written.paul-mccartney

plus, I've obviously already done a ton of reasearch.

I have posted this before but will say it again - in trying to analyze a situation such as "why did the Beatles break-up" it is often useful to ask this type of question - "If one thing could have been different, what one thing could have changed the outcome (the break-up)?"

To me the answer will always and only be John's addiction to heroin. If John had never been addicted to heroin he would have been approachable and he and Paul would have worked things out. John addiction made him unpredictable, sapped his creativity and created distance between him and Paul and George.

FYI most people don't realize the extent of John's addiction, that it lasted on and off until his death and that John pretty much lied about it in terms of trying to downplay his heroin use - because he was ashamed and embarrassed. But from time to time he gives an honest insight and Paul in an interview says how John's addiction made him impossible to deal with.

Also, functional heroin addicts can be quite well, functional. Just like alcoholics. Think of Dick Van Dyke drunk all through Mary Poppins and the Dick Van Dyke show. Same thing. John spent most of the last decade of his life high on heroin.

Yoko introduced John to heroin and encouraged John's heroin use as a way of controlling him.

One man's opinion.

"She looks more like him than I do."
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