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The Beatles were Just a Dream.
14 November 2010
4.06am
JET!
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Now, I've read quite a bit about the Beatles, and there's all sorts of accounts of this. But they're all smooshing together in my head.

It seemed that toward the end of the career (thanks to Yoko, I won't go too far into that) John gave up on the Beatles. They gave it a final, great push of Abbey Road (and Let it Be but in a weird order) and the product was great, but the whole time, it seemed like he thought the Beatles were just something they had as kids. During the 70s, he seemed especially resentful of their career and also of Paul. In contrast, Paul looked like he was doing everything he could to hold on to the dream, and keep it going, in fear of losing everything he'd known. George was sick of it and wanted to move on to new things, and it seemed like Ringo would've liked to keep going, but wasn't going to make a fuss. In reality, it seemed things started going downhill when Brian Epstein died.

Now, who wants to clear things up for me on those accounts? It made me sad, the way John talked about the Beatles in the 70s. And what were Paul's motives to hold on? Were the Beatles just some stupid dream? I don't think so.

The sunshine bores the daylights outta me
14 November 2010
4.42am
CranberrySauce
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Just a dream? I don't know if I've heard it described exactly that way before, but I do know that John became disillusioned. He wanted to re-record a whole bunch of Beatles songs, because he thought that the final production hadn't fulfilled his vision (pretty anti-George Martin, right there). He even wanted to redo Strawberry Fields Forever! And it's understandable why all of them became a bit sick of the fame and these consistently high expectations- I think that the fact that they stopped touring in 1966 because of various incidents and fans was an early, early sign.

Then, of course, there were the clashing egos. I've also heard that George's songwriting began to annoy John (or was it Paul?). Then George became annoyed with Paul for not allowing him enough freedom in the studio (Paul's taking leadership of everything). And then Ringo became sick of everything and temporarily left while recording the White Album.

I think Paul enjoyed being the leader of a band, which is why he created Wings. So he became a sort of control freak.

George wanted more freedom as a songwriter, which resulted in the fantastic 'All Things Must Pass'.

John became a hippie in the late 60s, largely thanks to Yoko. And then he developed this everything's-gone-to-crap attitude, but at the same time he wanted to achieve that dream (there's that word again) of peace. I don't know if he really thought this was possible, but he still tried. But his ego was still there- the erratic release of albums, the differing quality of songs. Sometimes he gave up and sometimes he kept going for it.

And Ringo? I don't really know what Ringo thought, but if I were him  I'dve been sick of the madness at that point.

The Beatles may have been a great dream- but even so, waking up is mandatory. The drugs, the death of Brian, Yoko- each was a contributing factor. But the dream lives on in the hearts of musicians who wish to be innovative and new- inspired by their heroes, the Beatles.

That last bit was cheesy, but true.

The following people thank CranberrySauce for this post:

Oudis
Because the wind is high, it blows my mind.
14 November 2010
4.47am
GniknuS
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John was initially dismissive of the Beatles, but he mellowed out a bit as the 70's went on. I think he had this image in his head that most people viewed Paul as the better Beatle because Paul's songs were covered more than his were, so his defense mechanism was to put down Paul's work as well as his own work that he wasn't too proud of. Actually I think that he put down the Beatles work that maybe he thought Yoko wouldn't like, but that's another theory. Also you have to consider that the 60's were a dream, but when everyone realized that hippies and LSD and flower power weren't really the answers to the future, that dream was over and the Beatles were sort of the leaders of the 60's dream. So I think when John said "the dream is over" he was referring to the entire period, not just the Beatles as a band.

I also think that John was so dismissive because of how different his initial solo work was from Abbey Road or any other Beatles work, compare Sun King to Mother, they are miles apart. The only song from Plastic Ono Band that the Beatles were presented with was Look at Me and it was rejected, not that any other songs from POB were written during the Beatles period, but I think John may have had the idea that his new work would have been rejected had it been presented to Paul and George Martin. So he probably felt the Beatles were inhibiting his songwriting which probably fueled some of his bitterness. And they really were inhibiting him, it's obvious when you see the lack of material he provided for Let it Be.

I can't really blame Paul for trying to hold on, after all he realized that they would all have to "Carry That Weight" of being Beatles for the rest of their lives and that all of their work would be compared with the Yesterdays and the Hey Judes, and those are fairly tough songs to top. But Paul has clearly been the most concerned about holding onto his legacy with some of his comments on particular songs, but I can't really blame him for that either because of how fantastic the Beatles were.

I sat on a rug, biding my time, drinking her wine
14 November 2010
4.51am
mithveaen
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Very well written comment. I totally agree with you.

 

The Beatles were of course a dream they had "The toppermost of the poppermost". And they pushed it to the limit. But there was a moment when the dream was not enough. After all, they were in their late 20s when they broke up. And a person changes a lot when you get to that age.

I got a theory about the late Beatles with this pic, my favorite of them.

 

 

We have Paul and John at the center. John like a needy child, resting his head on Paul's shoulder. Paul is standing straight, but his head kind of comforts John, at the same time, leans on him, as if John were his support. Ringo hugs John comforting him, and George, a bit apart from them, but at the same time, resting his head on Paul's shoulder, maybe not using him as a support, but just to be part of them.

 

So despite all the hate, ego, bitterness, they made that dream beautiful because they loved each other.

 

But that's just me. Of course when you see Cranberry Sauce's signature the lovely image just falls down. a-hard-days-night-george-6a-hard-days-night-john-1paul-mccartneya-hard-days-night-ringo-6

Here comes the sun….. Scoobie-doobie…… Something in the way she moves…..attracts me like a cauliflower… Bop. Bop, cat bop. Go, Johnny, Go. Beware of Darkness…  I believe in SH...
14 November 2010
1.11pm
mr. Sun king coming together
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I disagree, The dream is over line in God was that the Beatles, and by extension the 60's were over
George had an ego to match the others. He brought in Eric Clapton because he felt that they were being mean to him.

I tried to think of something powerful and moving… and failed.  "You were given a choice between war and dishonor - you chose dishonor, and you shall have war" - Winston Churchill
14 November 2010
2.41pm
MeanMrsMustard
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mr. Sun king coming together said:

George had an ego to match the others. He brought in Eric Clapton because he felt that they were being mean to him.


Maybe not mean to him, but they were being jerks. The whole Eric Clapton thing was because everyone's nicer when there's company over.

If I seem to act unkind, it's only me, it's not my mind that is confusing things.

14 November 2010
2.49pm
mr. Sun king coming together
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Like George never got impatient with Having to record 50 takes of a song? He had already been given millions of takes on the song, so they lost interest until Clapton came. Also How were they being jerks?

I tried to think of something powerful and moving… and failed.  "You were given a choice between war and dishonor - you chose dishonor, and you shall have war" - Winston Churchill
14 November 2010
2.50pm
MeanMrsMustard
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All the bickering in the studio. I think there's an explanation on the song page.

If I seem to act unkind, it's only me, it's not my mind that is confusing things.

14 November 2010
2.55pm
mr. Sun king coming together
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George left the band because Paul wanted him to play a different part in Two of Us so he bickered quite abut as well

I tried to think of something powerful and moving… and failed.  "You were given a choice between war and dishonor - you chose dishonor, and you shall have war" - Winston Churchill
14 November 2010
3.04pm
mithveaen
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Of course George had an ego to match the others, but he was aware of it. a-hard-days-night-george-10

 

Here comes the sun….. Scoobie-doobie…… Something in the way she moves…..attracts me like a cauliflower… Bop. Bop, cat bop. Go, Johnny, Go. Beware of Darkness…  I believe in SH...
14 November 2010
3.08pm
MeanMrsMustard
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mithveaen said:

Of course George had an ego to match the others, but he was aware of it. a-hard-days-night-george-10

 


So THAT must be why he wrote "I Me Mine." 

Anyone else look at the title of this thread and think it meant, "What would you do if you woke up one morning and realized the Beatles were only a dream?"

No Beatles songs. No Beatles albums. No Beatles Bible website. 

On the other hand, I'd be able to sing the songs and pretend I wrote them. a-hard-days-night-george-10 

If I seem to act unkind, it's only me, it's not my mind that is confusing things.

14 November 2010
3.11pm
mr. Sun king coming together
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God NO I would say I wrote them (How about Sun King/Mrs. Mustard song Credits?)

I tried to think of something powerful and moving… and failed.  "You were given a choice between war and dishonor - you chose dishonor, and you shall have war" - Winston Churchill
14 November 2010
3.21pm
mithveaen
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Also check The Beatles Anthology. When George talks about the White Album he says "There's a lot of ego there". He doesn't say Lennon's ego, McCartney's ego or his ego. He just says "ego", so I guess he's talking about all of them.

Ok I checked in Joe's section of the White Album but it's not there. But I'm 100% sure it's in the Anthology.

Here comes the sun….. Scoobie-doobie…… Something in the way she moves…..attracts me like a cauliflower… Bop. Bop, cat bop. Go, Johnny, Go. Beware of Darkness…  I believe in SH...
14 November 2010
3.23pm
MeanMrsMustard
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mr. Sun king coming together said:

God NO I would say I wrote them (How about Sun King/Mrs. Mustard song Credits?)


Hey! This is MY dream! 

a-hard-days-night-george-10

 

Wouldn't they wonder why our names were stolen from our own songs? :D 

If I seem to act unkind, it's only me, it's not my mind that is confusing things.

14 November 2010
3.53pm
mr. Sun king coming together
Nowhere Land
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we could be Scrimshaw/whatever your last name is
I don't care if it's your dream
I'm butting in!!!!

I tried to think of something powerful and moving… and failed.  "You were given a choice between war and dishonor - you chose dishonor, and you shall have war" - Winston Churchill
14 November 2010
5.26pm
skye
AZ
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I still agree with the idea that it a power play on the part John and George. J, G, & R all quit at some point, but this time, they took it too far and Paul gave up. And that was it.

George was tired of the business. Tired of fighting for his songs. But at one point he wrote a memo saying, roughly, that a flower is pretty, but in a garden, it's beautiful; so I think you could argue that he didn't really want it to end. He wanted his place in the garden.

John brought in Yoko because he could. He was the leader after all. He brought in Klein for the same reason. His band, his choice. He wanted Paul to back off, but after all the work Paul put into the band, he wasn't going to do that.

And Ringo mostly sided with John and George.

Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo! So little time! So much to know!
14 November 2010
7.26pm
JET!
Rockin' in two by two
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14 November 2010
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mithveaen said:

Very well written comment. I totally agree with you.

 

The Beatles were of course a dream they had "The toppermost of the poppermost". And they pushed it to the limit. But there was a moment when the dream was not enough. After all, they were in their late 20s when they broke up. And a person changes a lot when you get to that age.

I got a theory about the late Beatles with this pic, my favorite of them.

 

 

We have Paul and John at the center. John like a needy child, resting his head on Paul's shoulder. Paul is standing straight, but his head kind of comforts John, at the same time, leans on him, as if John were his support. Ringo hugs John comforting him, and George, a bit apart from them, but at the same time, resting his head on Paul's shoulder, maybe not using him as a support, but just to be part of them.

 

So despite all the hate, ego, bitterness, they made that dream beautiful because they loved each other.

 

But that's just me. Of course when you see Cranberry Sauce's signature the lovely image just falls down. a-hard-days-night-george-6a-hard-days-night-john-1paul-mccartneya-hard-days-night-ringo-6


Really good ideas you guys. I like this one, it made me happy. I wonder, if John was alive today, what he would've said about the Beatles now?

or if there was a reunion tour a-hard-days-night-ringo-9they'd never ever agree to it but you can dream... yeah if the Beatles were a dream entirely in my head, I think I'd have to exploit it. Think of it more as sharing the most wonderful thing with the rest of the world. With me getting song credits on the sidea-hard-days-night-george-10

The sunshine bores the daylights outta me
14 November 2010
8.05pm
GniknuS
Rain? I don't mind
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mr. Sun king coming together said:

Like George never got impatient with Having to record 50 takes of a song? He had already been given millions of takes on the song, so they lost interest until Clapton came. Also How were they being jerks?


They were "being jerks" by rejecting almost all of his songs that he presented for the album. And from George's perspective they weren't taking WMGGW as seriously as he was expected to take one of their songs, so he brought in Clapton because he knew it could be a great song with a little help. It clearly worked and was worth the effort because it's one of the best songs on the album. How many takes of I Will was Paul given? That song turns out so simple though, I can't really imagine why they needed 50 takes or whatever amount it ended up being for that song.

 

I like what skye said, I had never heard of that memo, but George just wanted more of his material to be put down on the albums. He was at least as good of a songwriter, if not better, than John or Paul by Abbey Road and yet they still only gave him two songs on the album and those two songs were probably the two best on the album. I don't agree with him not wanting it to end, I think Paul and maybe Ringo were the only ones who wanted it to keep going because the other two were being inhibited as songwriters. George subsequently released a triple album and John released a large amount of material pretty quickly as well. I think that George needed the Beatles to stay together for the exact amount of time that they did because maybe he didn't feel as though he could succeed by himself before Abbey Road, but after those two songs he knew that he could flourish by himself.

 

With John I think that he had done everything he could with the Beatles, he said that many times he felt that he couldn't go anywhere else creatively with the Beatles, so he got out. He's not wrong about that either, just look at the material he wrote in 1965! I don't think any artist has ever wrote that many great songs in that short of a span. He had done the whole thing and they had reached the toppermost of the poppermost, but if he didn't feel like he was free to explore all aspects of his songwriting, why should he have stayed with the Beatles? All I'm saying is that I don't blame John for breaking up "Los Paranoias".

I sat on a rug, biding my time, drinking her wine
14 November 2010
8.31pm
JET!
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Another excellent reply. To be honest, I haven't had much time to listen to John or George's music released just after they broke up. I did get into some Traveling Wilburys, which is fantastic. But was that work merited? That's not exactly the right wording but... was it good?

I should start listening to it, but my dad says that the Lennon stuff is mostly crap. He says there's a few good gems in there, but it's just "too weird." So I've been exploring some other bands lately, as well as Paul's post-Beatles work. What's a good start to get into the Lennon music?a-hard-days-night-ringo-4

The sunshine bores the daylights outta me
14 November 2010
8.42pm
GniknuS
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JET! said:

Another excellent reply. To be honest, I haven't had much time to listen to John or George's music released just after they broke up. I did get into some Traveling Wilburys, which is fantastic. But was that work merited? That's not exactly the right wording but... was it good?

I should start listening to it, but my dad says that the Lennon stuff is mostly crap. He says there's a few good gems in there, but it's just "too weird." So I've been exploring some other bands lately, as well as Paul's post-Beatles work. What's a good start to get into the Lennon music?a-hard-days-night-ringo-4


Yeah I love Traveling Wilburys. George released an absolutely huge triple album called All Things Must Pass that is really good for the most part. My Sweet Lord was a #1 hit. It's tough to say with John's solo stuff because most of it is very, umm, "un-Beatle" like so I think people expecting John's solo stuff to just be an extension of his Beatle career are mostly disappointed. I don't know where I would start though, maybe God. Watching the Wheels is a track that he released much later, but it's my favorite song of his.
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