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The Beatles as…… jerks?
12 September 2011
1.28am
kedame
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I think the only reason the Beatles music seems "higher" than others is because we made it that way. We value it, so it gives it greater meaning. I don't really think that's what they set out to do. I believe Paul when he said he started Hey Jude as a comfort song for Julian (maybe it didn't finish that way, though). It wasn't really his fault it's like an anthem to some people. I think most of their songs were written for themselves, for pure enjoyment and because they just couldn't help it. I do see it that way with songs like Imagine, though. For some reason, I just can't stomach that song…not even when I idolized John.

I do think robert is right, though. They can get away with it because they have brought more joy than misery in the world. I haven't done anything in my life to make as many people as happy as the Beatles have. Does that mean I don't think they have faults? No, it doesn't, but they've never done anything to hurt me, and most of the time, the people they hurt forgive them eventually. If they can, so can I.

"You can manicure a cat but can you caticure a man?" John Lennon- Skywriting by Word of Mouth
12 September 2011
3.17am
mithveaen
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mr. Sun king coming together said:

mithveaen said:

Edit : SunKing, honestly I don't give a damn when people tell me that I like the Beatles way too much. I'm not going to explain it. And to be honest, I don't give a fuck about their flaws.

But don't criticize me. You have no idea about what I have to go through and how the Beatles make me keep my sanity in this crazy world.

Look, I knew this would be feisty, but I never insulted you. I'd never stoop so low.

And I'm sorry if I my reply was too harsh. I had a terrible day. Believe it or not, September 11th is not a nice day to go through.

 

So I'm sorry if I was too harsh my friend. apple01apple01

Here comes the sun….. Scoobie-doobie…… Something in the way she moves…..attracts me like a cauliflower… Bop. Bop, cat bop. Go, Johnny, Go. Beware of Darkness…  I believe in SH...
12 September 2011
5.46am
StarWisher
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I remember reading something Bono said along the lines of there being a difference between who he IS and who he'd LIKE to be, when it came to talking about things like love and peace, and being spiritual.

"We are all a little weird and life's a little weird, and when we find someone whose weirdness is compatible with ours, we join up with them and fall in mutual weirdness and call it love." — Dr. Seuss
 
 
12 September 2011
12.17pm
meanmistermustard
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If the Beatles had said at any time 'we live this way' and sang they were loving, didnt do drugs etc then they could be targeted for not, but they didnt so I dont see hypocrisy. There was a myth that they were tho, Brian tried to maintain it, and maybe thats where the difficulties start for people.

Nowadays Apple are very keen on presenting a positive Beatle image, maintaining the held public image, hence no Let It Be movie.

"Well, probably we'll sell less records, less people'll go to see the film, we'll write less songs, and we'll all die of failure" (John Lennon 8/64)
12 September 2011
6.39pm
GniknuS
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I'm reminded of Paul's quote from Anthology when he's talking about George, I believe, and he says something like "who's sensitive at that age? Certainly not me…" and he's right, the thing I believe we take for granted is that the Beatles were 20 year old males who were the most successful and popular human beings on the planet. I'm a 23 year old male and if I had thousands of girls throwing themselves at me every day…a-hard-days-night-paul-2

Sorry, that just is how it is, I don't believe that makes me a dick because every other young male would do exactly the same thing. I think holding the Beatles to a higher standard is worse than forgiving their flaws just because they were musicians. It's unfair to expect them to be perfect people, yes they were flawed, yes John did terrible things, but terrible things happened to him as a kid and generally people repeat the mistakes that their parents made. That isn't some new or unique thing, absent fathers usually have had absent fathers themselves. They don't know how to act because they never had a father, so it's in their nature.

It's just impossible for me to sit here and try to imagine what it was like for them, so I'll reserve my judgment. At least they tried to spread positive messages, name one Stones song that was an attempt at a positive message. There's nothing wrong with trying to expand the consciousness of other human beings, even if you can't quite do it yourself. Imagine has inspired millions, so why should it matter than John didn't subscribe to all of those beliefs? Should he not have been allowed to write it? They were the most successful band on the planet and they used that power for good, Apple was an attempt at something good that got out of control. That's how I know they were good people, they had good ideas and used their fame in positive ways.

I sat on a rug, biding my time, drinking her wine
12 September 2011
7.21pm
Zig
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This thread should have been titled The Beatles as…… flawed human beings?

Basically, that's all it comes down to. They were 4 guys who were (or are) less than saints and just happened to form the best rock band ever assembled.

End of dicsussion – though somehow, I doubt it.a-hard-days-night-ringo-14

To the fountain of perpetual mirth, Let it roll for all its worth.

Can buy Joe love! If you're going to buy that song, album, or T-shirt anyway; please consider using these links to support the Beatles Bible: Amazon | iTunes

13 September 2011
6.21am
kedame
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Forgive me for any misspellings. I'm using a phone. About Imagine, really I just don't like the song. I'd almost rather listen to how do you sleep. There is just about it I dislike,though I am Glad it has inspired people. I dont't even mind the hypocrisy of the song so much as the fact that it makes others view John as a holy peace man, which isn't his fault anyway.

"You can manicure a cat but can you caticure a man?" John Lennon- Skywriting by Word of Mouth
13 September 2011
12.04pm
meanmistermustard
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Imagine is a song i skip, one reason being Yoko keeps on shoving it down my throat.

Like Kedame the so-called hypocrisy has never annoyed me. The idea that John cant say "imagine no possessions" just because he was a rich guy is ridiculous. Whats he meant to do, give everything he had away? If he did he would have been laughed at for decades. 

"Well, probably we'll sell less records, less people'll go to see the film, we'll write less songs, and we'll all die of failure" (John Lennon 8/64)
13 September 2011
1.18pm
minime
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*sigh* Computer decided to fall apart just when I had finished my message. 

 

To cut it short: Paul was the least ass, in my opinion. It might be in his nature, to be more friendly than the others. Sure, he cheated on his girl friend too at the sixties, but in my scale cheating is a lot lower than practically abandoning your child and former wife and treating your friends like crap. Of course, I point at John with the latter explanation… But I'm sure he suffered for his actions, too. Or does it seem to you like most of his life was spent in a happy cloud?

 

Well, anyway, I'd like to keep their music separate from their personal life, their "assholeness" doesn't refrain me from listening to their awesome songs. Although there's something about "Imagine" that does bug me… However encouraging the idea of it is. 

13 September 2011
1.33pm
oneafter909
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I mean, in the end of it, the point is that we like their music. Nobody's supposed to be prying on their personal lives anyway. 

But still… 

Step on the gas and wipe that tear away.
13 September 2011
6.58pm
GniknuS
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I agree about Imagine, it isn't one of my absolute favorite Lennon songs. I've always thought that you can hear a different emotion in John's voice on his truly great songs, that's why I've always preferred Girl to In My Life and Jealous Guy to Imagine.
There's another thread somewhere (make up your mind John I think it's called) which talks about John's contradictions and I've always thought that one of the biggest ones was how he passed some songs off as not being honest enough, but certain other songs he would say that they were "just poetry." I believe Imagine falls somewhere between the two distinctions, on the one hand, maybe he was asking himself if he could imagine no possessions, on the other hand, the words just sound nice together and could be called "just poetry."
The thing we take for granted is that it was literally John's job to write songs, that was it for him. It's easy for us to judge his songs, but he was probably just looking for something to write about and when the words came, I don't think he worried about how much he believed them. I feel the same way about Because, I don't think John ever had such a wide-eyed perspective of the world (I'm just a Child Of Nature?) but still, the words sound so nice together.
John not having anything to write about was one of the reasons he stopped for five years, as he admits in the interview I posted on the other page.

I sat on a rug, biding my time, drinking her wine
13 September 2011
7.21pm
mr. Sun king coming together
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The fact that you aren't irritated by the massive hypocrisy that John spews throughout that song shocks me. As an anthem, it fails in my eyes because, well, who are you to be lecturing me about what you completely don't do is shocking. I can take overly anthemly stuff, but I draw the line at hypocrisy.

I tried to think of something powerful and moving… and failed.  "You were given a choice between war and dishonor - you chose dishonor, and you shall have war" - Winston Churchill
13 September 2011
7.58pm
minime
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mr. Sun king coming together said:

The fact that you aren't irritated by the massive hypocrisy that John spews throughout that song shocks me. As an anthem, it fails in my eyes because, well, who are you to be lecturing me about what you completely don't do is shocking. I can take overly anthemly stuff, but I draw the line at hypocrisy.

I hate hypocrisy as well but then again, I realize that not all songs are written about their author. Just a simple example "She's leaving home" from Paul-nothing to do with his personal life. In regard to Imagine, well… I can kind of agree with GnikuS. It might be it was John's dream to be like that-friends with the whole world, free of material, free of religions and everything restraining the harmony between humankind. That song has a beautiful melody and beautiful lyrics, reasons I like listening to it, but the image of Lennon playing it in his mansion, yeah, it is a bit depressing. Same goes for "Working class hero"-whenever was John one those?

13 September 2011
8.49pm
meanmistermustard
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Im sorry but i dont see Imagine as hypocrisy. So what John had possessions? Why does it matter? Can someone answer without saying its because he was a millionaire, which is a crap reason in my book? And personally i do believe he meant the words and they werent just something he wrote like When I Get Home.

He did campaign for peace and never stopped believing in it, although in the later years he wasnt so outspoken/brazen. The problem with Johns campaign, all those marches and planting acorns, was that it was embarrasing. How on earth does staying in bed bring peace? Even John admitted that he got it wrong in all those events that were staged.

Even worse was his work with John Sinclair and all those who used him to get exposure. I dont think John ever really believed in that. John was sold a lot of false ideals and later realised his mistakes.

 

Going off topic Another reason why John stopped making music was because he realised that a musician was what he had become but didnt have to be. He found that he was making records for the sake of making records. Personally i think by the time of Walls and Bridges his songwriting was generally little more than hackwork, writing for the sake of writing. Unfortunately he didnt have The Beatles backing him to make the material interesting enough so it was saturated in anything and everything to distract focus.

"Well, probably we'll sell less records, less people'll go to see the film, we'll write less songs, and we'll all die of failure" (John Lennon 8/64)
13 September 2011
9.10pm
Zig
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I don't know how I could possibly care less about whether or not John would really give up his possessions or if he was really a working class hero. To me, they are great songs and I simply appreciate them as that.

If John had lived to be the greediest ruthless son-of-a-bitching ponzi schemer stealing from retiree's pension funds and foreclosing on orphan homes, I would still like "Imagine". It's a flippin' song for Christ's sake.

When people start to read too much into these things, I simply shake my head and laugh. I love the fact that John messed with people's minds when he wrote jibberish for them to analyze in "I Am The Walrus".

By the way; let me set the record straight. John wasn't really a walrus, he wasn't a loser, you do need more than love, and while I can't speak for the monkey I would bet my house that John had something to hide. 

They were just songs.

 

*Edit* a-hard-days-night-paul-11

To the fountain of perpetual mirth, Let it roll for all its worth.

Can buy Joe love! If you're going to buy that song, album, or T-shirt anyway; please consider using these links to support the Beatles Bible: Amazon | iTunes

13 September 2011
9.34pm
minime
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OT: I think Watching the wheels is one of his best songs. It was Sean's favorite as well. (and it was one of his latest, too)

13 September 2011
9.40pm
An unidentified flying cupcake
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Zig said:

…., and while I can't speak for the monkeyI would bet my house that John had something to hide. 
They were just songs.

I would have definitely zigged if I was drinking something!

and very very very well-said!

Do I have to keep on talking till I can't go on!
14 September 2011
12.01am
kelicopter
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Zig said:

John wasn't really a walrus, he wasn't a loser, you do need more than love, and while I can't speak for the monkey I would bet my house that John had something to hide. 

Now THAT would make an awesome signature!

"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
"When I cannot sing my heart, I can only speak my mind."
14 September 2011
2.45am
GniknuS
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Nice one Zig, but I still think an upper middle class hero is something to be…
It's tough with John because so many of his songs were autobiographical. It's unfair to John because all of his songs are expected to be completely honest, I'm pretty sure Paul or George would have completely gotten away with Imagine, but no one else wrote the song, John did, and it's a nice song with a great message. If there's one way to describe John's life, it could be that he imagined, and that was the key to all of his success.

I sat on a rug, biding my time, drinking her wine
14 September 2011
4.02pm
kedame
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That was funny Zig, and I completely understand your point. I am with GnikNus here, though. I don't think I have ever properly explained my dislike of Imagine, partly because I don't think I fully know why I dislike it. I know I don't agree with many of its ideologies, and I don't think John did either, except for maybe a little while. The problem with John's songs is that everyone takes what he said as the gospel of what he believed, which is partly his fault and partly not. John often said that he wrote songs about what he knew and believed, and he ridiculed those that didn't…those that just made up stories and didn't write about "real" things. So how are we supposed to know when to take John at face value in his songs? It's only a hypocrisy when it is used as the song that defines his life, which it often is, and again, is not his fault. He said later on, I think, that he didn't believe that stuff anymore. Everyone always forgets that. I guess that shouldn't take away anyone's enjoyment of the song, though. However, it just doesn't do anything for me. It doesn't inspire me or make me tear up. It usually makes me groan when I hear it.

Sorry I got us off topic. I think that is the last I will say on the subject.

"You can manicure a cat but can you caticure a man?" John Lennon- Skywriting by Word of Mouth
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