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John and George Relationship Post-Beatles
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2 August 2013
5.57pm
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DrBeatle
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^all great points, except that don't forget that All Those Years Ago was originally a piss-take of John by George (ala How Do You Sleep??) that George only changed after John's murder. It wasn't as if he whipped that up out of thin air in January 1981.

 

BTW, Joe or some other mod, shouldn't this thread be in either the John or George forum and not in this off-topic one?

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2 August 2013
6.34pm
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parlance
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DrBeatle said

I suspect George felt the same jealousy toward Yoko that he did toward Paul with regards to diverting John's attention from him.

That's a great point.

 

^all great points, except that don't forget that All Those Years Ago was originally a piss-take of John by George (ala How Do You Sleep??) that George only changed after John's murder. It wasn't as if he whipped that up out of thin air in January 1981.

DrBeatle, where did that info come from? I keep hearing it was originally a piss-take, but I can't find the source.

 

BTW, Joe or some other mod, shouldn't this thread be in either the John or George forum and not in this off-topic one?

I was thinking the same.

 

As for George and Clapton... I sometimes wonder if there's an understanding among male musicians that girlfriends and wives are collateral damage compared to the bond of two artists who truly "get" each other... bros before hos, to put it crudely. Maybe the betrayal from Clapton just didn't wound as much as the betrayal from John.

parlance

Beware of sadness. It can hit you. It can hurt you. Make you sore and what is more, that is not what you are here for. - George

Check out my fan video for Paul's song "Appreciate" at Vimeo or YouTube.

3 August 2013
1.39am
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acmac
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I think the tension between George and Paul post-1980 may appear to us to be more serious than it actually was. As they aged, their compatibility as music partners diminished (and who doesn't have a good friend they'd never want as a roommate/business partner/work colleague?), but I think there was (almost) always a lot of love there. Sure, George could say grouchy things about Paul in interviews, but I think interviews probably put him in a grouchy mood to begin with, lol. I think that may be behind the apparent tension in some of the Anthology interviews, BTW; camera-pressure was not good for their dynamic. Filmed interviews seem to ratchet up Paul's nervous energy, while they make George grouchy, which is a pretty bad combination. Also consider: George's speech at the Beatles RnRHoF induction; he seems totally sincere when he says "We all love Paul very much." The relationship between Dhani/Olivia and Paul/Paul's kids has always seemed quite warm and familiar (Olivia even published a sharp rebuke of Guiliano's criticisms of Paul), which doesn't seem likely if Paul and George had had a frosty relationship. There's also Tom Petty's quote that George could snipe about Paul, but "he hated it when anybody else did it and put a stop to it immediately" (this echoes Alice Cooper's description of John and Paul's relationship). And then, yeah, as somebody mentioned earlier in the discussion, there is the matter of George spending his final weeks in a house Paul provided; George had many rich and powerful friends, but it was Paul who he allowed to help him in that way. That speaks volumes to me.

As for George complaining more about Paul than about John when it's arguable John treated him worse... well, John was clearly a more dangerous person to piss off. Paul could be relied upon to forgive and forget. And then John died, which would make George more reluctant to diss him for a whole host of reasons.

3 August 2013
2.56am
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DrBeatle
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acmac said
I think the tension between George and Paul post-1980 may appear to us to be more serious than it actually was. As they aged, their compatibility as music partners diminished (and who doesn't have a good friend they'd never want as a roommate/business partner/work colleague?), but I think there was (almost) always a lot of love there. Sure, George could say grouchy things about Paul in interviews, but I think interviews probably put him in a grouchy mood to begin with, lol. I think that may be behind the apparent tension in some of the Anthology interviews, BTW; camera-pressure was not good for their dynamic. Filmed interviews seem to ratchet up Paul's nervous energy, while they make George grouchy, which is a pretty bad combination. Also consider: George's speech at the Beatles RnRHoF induction; he seems totally sincere when he says "We all love Paul very much." The relationship between Dhani/Olivia and Paul/Paul's kids has always seemed quite warm and familiar (Olivia even published a sharp rebuke of Guiliano's criticisms of Paul), which doesn't seem likely if Paul and George had had a frosty relationship. There's also Tom Petty's quote that George could snipe about Paul, but "he hated it when anybody else did it and put a stop to it immediately" (this echoes Alice Cooper's description of John and Paul's relationship). And then, yeah, as somebody mentioned earlier in the discussion, there is the matter of George spending his final weeks in a house Paul provided; George had many rich and powerful friends, but it was Paul who he allowed to help him in that way. That speaks volumes to me.

As for George complaining more about Paul than about John when it's arguable John treated him worse... well, John was clearly a more dangerous person to piss off. Paul could be relied upon to forgive and forget. And then John died, which would make George more reluctant to diss him for a whole host of reasons.

All great points. Reminds me of what John had said in the early 70s, where it was OK for him to slag the Beatles but don't anyone else DARE do it or John would defend them to the hilt. THAT is a true love and bond between 4 brothers that transcends any ancillary bullshit.

 

parlance, I will try to find the source where I read that about All Those Years Ago...I can't remember off the top of my head because it was all those years ago I read it (pun intended :P )

 

5 August 2013
12.06pm
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robert
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I think if you read enough and watch Olivia Harrison's interviews in Living In A Material World you learn a few contradictory things about George. Namely that in spite of all his great qualities:

1) George never really reconciled with either Paul or John.

2) He remained bitter towards them to the end.

3) George remained the most money-focused member.

4) He was an incredible womanizer - remember he had an affair with Maureen Starr - while she was married to Ringo - and Olivia admits on camera that George never stopped fooling around.

The only point I would add about George and John's relationship is this - what is most weird to me is the Imagine period when George plays guitar on John's record (remember John never played on George's records). I think (and this pure conjecture), I think that Yoko fueled this - encouraging John to work with George in order to create greater distance between John and Paul. And then once John and George got too close - she sabotaged that.

I believe, that with Yoko's influence, John kept George and Paul at odds against each other to keep himself in the seat of control. This may sound wildly like psychobabble - but it is actually very common in these types of close, highly creative and competitive relationships.

 

 

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5 August 2013
1.39pm
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robert
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DrBeatle said
I absolutely buy into that theory, especially with Yoko pulling the strings. One need only read Peter Doggett's excellent book to see how Yoko was also instrumental in keeping John and Paul apart, deliberately and calculatingly, from '74 until the end.

Exactly - and if she did it with Paul we can easily imagine that she did it with George. Consider this - it has been reported that just before John's death Paul had called John and Yoko diverted the calls. We are also now reading that George was also trying to reach John and his calls never got through.

John in the studio during Double Fantasy was telling Jack Douglas that he was going to get the "boys together again for Ringo". The only one who loses from that is (wait for it) Yoko.

I am not anti-Yoko per se, but she is what she is. Before her defenders pile on me, just remember what she did to John's artwork - adding color to his drawings (after his death)  - (which he never wanted color added to his drawings) and selling them as John's work - adding his chop mark, after his death, and selling it as if John had done it.

Like her or hate her - those are the facts.

 

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taliaandalyssasmom
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5 August 2013
3.59pm
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parlance
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I found this thread at the Steve Hoffman boards on why George left during "Let It Be" that had some great insights on this subject, and Ray Schweighardt, who cowrote the books with Doug Sulpy on the Get Back sessions, contributes to the thread at some point. It started in 2011, so it's quite long. But worth a read, I think.

This comment in particular was interesting because it talked about the early Paul/George dynamic and how that was affected by the Paul/John dynamic.

And I thought about the simple fact that George was probably bitter because it was bad enough he was treated like a junior Beatle. But then someone's tone deaf girlfriend comes along and gets better treatment than him and almost gets made an official member of the band? Yeah, I'd have half a mind to start swinging.

parlance

Beware of sadness. It can hit you. It can hurt you. Make you sore and what is more, that is not what you are here for. - George

Check out my fan video for Paul's song "Appreciate" at Vimeo or YouTube.

5 August 2013
4.58pm
mccartneyalarm
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Excellent insights, guys I hope this comes across in the positive way that I mean it, but it is interesting (and I am guilty of this, too) that anytime someone tells the truth about Yoko, they find themselves apologizing for it cuz the facts make her look bad! We all say "I'm not Yoko-bashing" but...fill in the blank with the bad things she did. The truth is the truth. I've never met anyone who loves Yoko, and about the only good thing I can say about her is that she has done a remarkable job of keeping John and his music "alive.' But, then again, it has certainly been in her best interest financially (cha ching). Other than that, she is a manipulator; her reality is whatever she dictates it should be; she is fabulously self-centered; and she is completely self-serving. She went after John (she was still married to Tony Cox) with the sole purpose of grabbing his money and some fame. Then, she created the fantasyland of John & Yoko and realized this was a good thing. So, then she had to figure out how to keep it going while she went out and furthered her other needs & dreams (sexual, finacial, and artistic). She kept Julian away from John as well. She was a control freak. John fell for it. It wasn't his fault. So, is that Yoko-bashing? If it is, I am sorry. But, I wish I didn't have to apologize for telling the truth.

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