Beatles kick out Pete - cold and heartless? | Page 4 | Yesterday... and today | Fab forum

Please consider registering
Guest

Log In Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —

  
 

— Match —

   

— Forum Options —

   

Minimum search word length is 4 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

Beatles kick out Pete - cold and heartless?
12 February 2014
1.59pm
Sky999
On The Hill
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 1752
Member Since:
14 January 2013
Offline
61

Ahhh Girl said
A few other threads on the forum use the term "sack" or one of its variants to describe this event. So to help this thread be found more readily with a Google search, I am adding the term here. Please continue with this most excellent discussion of the sacking of Pete Best.

It all means the same thing..ahdn_paul_02

12 February 2014
2.17pm
Ahhh Girl
sailing on a winedark open sea
Moderator


Forum Posts: 5544
Member Since:
20 August 2013
Online

Sky999 said

Ahhh Girl said
A few other threads on the forum use the term "sack" or one of its variants to describe this event. So to help this thread be found more readily with a Google search, I am adding the term here. Please continue with this most excellent discussion of the sacking of Pete Best.

It all means the same thing..ahdn_paul_02

That is correct. This is such a good discussion that I just wanted people to find it quickly and easily if the search term they chose was "sacking".

EDIT: I went back through the thread more carefully. Someone had already put "sacking" in a post. Google searching didn't pick it up. Google failed me yet again. However, now that I put my post in, Google magically finds this thread now. I wish I knew how Google works on matters like this. Note to self : do more research on this topic.

12 February 2014
3.01pm
Billy Rhythm
Shea Stadium
Forum Posts: 489
Member Since:
22 December 2013
Offline
63

mja6758 said 

What you are suggesting is that Ringo is wrong, Ron Richards is wrong, Andy White's pay sheet is wrong, the studio documentation is wrong.

No, I'm saying that Ringo & George Martin are correct in their personal recollections on the subject.  The story George Martin tells on the 'Anthology' is exactly as he's told it before during interviews of the 1970's & 80's (long before Lewisohn's book).  George said "I don't even know who you are" to Ringo when he turned up at the first recording session expecting to play when it had all ready been arranged that Andy White was going to do the session.  I've even seen some refute this claim, citing some long lost NEMS memo informing George that Ringo was coming (more "documentation").  Let's, for argument's sake, assume that the memo is accurate/genuine, where's the confirmation "documentation" that George Martin actually received it in his hands?  George Martin's, unlike some of The Beatles', memoires have been very consistent over the years and I see no reason that some questionable documentation should trump his personal account.  The Beatles weren't exactly a major EMI signing back in 1962, Sir George's peers teased him about Beetles and thought that he was pulling their leg with another Peter Sellers or Spike Milligan record instead, yet the administrative staff took the extra care and showed due diligence in documenting their first activities for the EMI archives?  Sorry, but I'm gonna need more than "Andy White's pay sheet" to dismiss Ringo & George Martin's personal accounts.

 

I've posted this before somewhere else http://www.beatlesagain.com/th.....track.html  it's an intense study on the song 'She Loves You' which exposes atleast one (more if you "buy" his theory) flaw in Lewisohn's documentation.  This is arguably The Beatles' best known song, recorded while they were conquering Britain in 1963 and EMI not only botched the "documentation" but apparently lost the master recording!  Yet, I'm supposed to believe that they crafted a 100% accurate paper trail for 'Love Me Do'?...:-) 

 

 

12 February 2014
4.10pm
Ron Nasty
"Where have you been?" "I'm not telling you..."
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 3219
Member Since:
17 December 2012
Offline

I am not attempting to be here awkward here, but Ringo says he drummed on the 4th, he even describes how his drumming during their afternoon rehearsal might have got wondering. Describing their run-through of Please Please Me (untaped, and not the version on Anthology — which was recorded on the 11th and featured Andy White on drums), he says:

“I was playing the bass drum and the hi-hat, and I had a tambourine in one hand and a maraca in another, and I was hitting the cymbals as well, [like] some weird spastic leper, trying to play all these instruments at once.”

Describing the events of the 11th, and arriving to find Andy White there, Ringo has said:

“I was highly upset — highly upset. It blew my brain away.”

and:

“I thought, 'That's the end. They're doing a Pete Best on me.' I was shattered. 'If [I'm] going to be no use on records I might as well leave.' But nobody said anything. What could the others say, or me? We were just lads being pushed around.”

While Ron Richards — producing the session due to George Martin's absence — relates how:

“Ringo was sitting next to me in the control box, not saying anything, so I said, 'Go and play the maracas' and off he went to do it. He stood next to Andy and the drum microphone picked up his sound.”

There is also the problem that the session on the 4th was photographed by Dezo Hoffman, and Andy appears in none of the photographs.

As I have said, the evidence (including Ringo's statements, various documents, Dezo's photographs), have Ringo drumming on the 4th and Andy on the 11th.

Lewisohn has corrected many things over the years as better evidence has come to light, but he hasn't altered on these dates, while others — including Ringo (who once remembered it as one date) — have.

And the strongest evidence is Dezo's photographs of the 4th.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
12 February 2014
4.27pm
Billy Rhythm
Shea Stadium
Forum Posts: 489
Member Since:
22 December 2013
Offline
65

It sounds to me like the 4th wasn't a recording session at all, but rather a rehearsal, that happened to be photographed.  When it got down to laying down the tracks for keeps, Andy White played while Ringo was allowed to play on a few takes.  I still don't see any quote by Ringo or George Martin referencing "the 4th" date specifically, and you keep mentioning that Ringo did at some point.  Whatever was recorded on the 4th, if anything was, was likely a simple test run for getting some levels so that they could get down to business when Andy White showed up on the 11th.  That's my translation from all the evidence here, nothing's so much "wrong" with anybody's claims with this translation, it all makes sense and the evidence supports it...:-)

12 February 2014
4.57pm
Ron Nasty
"Where have you been?" "I'm not telling you..."
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 3219
Member Since:
17 December 2012
Offline
66

The 4th was definitely a recording session. They had a rehearsal in the afternoon in Studio Three. Dezo took some posed photographs. They went out for a meal with George Martin and Ron Richards among other. They returned to Studio Two at around 7pm and running through to 11.15pm, recorded Love Me Do and the intended first a-side How Do You Do It, with Dezo photographing the session, with both mixed following the session.

Their return on the 11th, they believed until they arrived, was to record a b-side, with George Martin having accepted them doing their own songs. On arrival, they were informed by Ron Richards (who was producing) that they wanted another go at Love Me Do, and Andy White would be drumming. They recorded the re-make of Love Me Do, PS I Love You for the b-side, and an unknown amount of takes of Please Please Me so George Martin could see how they had been taking on his advice about the song from the previous week.

Their first single, so far as GM was concerned at the time, would be How Do You It, and that was only recorded on the 4th, so there is no way to consider the 4th as a studio rehearsal that was partly recorded.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
12 February 2014
5.23pm
Billy Rhythm
Shea Stadium
Forum Posts: 489
Member Since:
22 December 2013
Offline
67

We're going around in circles here mja6758, you're free to accept Lewisohn's documentation any way you like but I'm gonna take it with salt & pepper myself personally.  I'm gonna prefer George Martin & Ringo Starr's personal accounts for they were both there on the 4th, but that's just me...:-) 

12 February 2014
5.25pm
Ron Nasty
"Where have you been?" "I'm not telling you..."
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 3219
Member Since:
17 December 2012
Offline
68

And Ringo says he drummed on the versions of Love Me Do and How Do You Do It recorded on the 4th.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
12 February 2014
5.31pm
Billy Rhythm
Shea Stadium
Forum Posts: 489
Member Since:
22 December 2013
Offline
69

I'm still waiting for this quote of yours, Ringo actually says that he's "on the album version (of 'Love Me Do&#39a-hard-days-night-george-10" during the 'Anthology' which you (or, Lewisohn) claim was recorded on the 11th...:-)

12 February 2014
5.42pm
Ron Nasty
"Where have you been?" "I'm not telling you..."
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 3219
Member Since:
17 December 2012
Offline

I have never said Ringo drummed on the album version, as all the evidence says that the single originally went for Ringo's version on the 4th, the album used Andy White's version recorded on the 11th, the master of Ringo's version was then destroyed to make sure the same version was used on all formats, and that the version with Ringo drumming, since it was first re-released in 1982, has been taken from needle-drops.

EDIT: Nor, I should add, has Lewisohn said Ringo's version appeared on the album. Everybody (mostly!) agrees that Ringo's version from the fourth only appeared on the early run of the UK single, until it reappeared on the 20th anniversary 12-inch of the single in 1982, and went on to appear on Past Masters.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
12 February 2014
6.14pm
Billy Rhythm
Shea Stadium
Forum Posts: 489
Member Since:
22 December 2013
Offline
71

mja6758 said
the master of Ringo's version was then destroyed to make sure the same version was used on all formats

 

Who said that it was "destroyed"?  They supposedly went through all of this extra care documenting the recordings, only to have them "destroyed"?  Maybe the "test" recordings of 'Love Me Do' from the 4th, 'How Do You Do It' wasn't even issued until 33 years later which gives it "rehearsal" status in my books, were actually recorded overtop of on the 11th.  My very first recording session in the 1980's was a four hour session, yet I spent 3 times as much on the tapestock as I did the hourly rate (which included an Engineer), high quality magnetic tape was a big expense and I doubt that The Beatles were given unlimited use of EMI tapestock when they were but a fledgling project back then, Lewisohn's work doesn't take any of this into account from what I see.  Take a song like 'Not Guilty' which shows 'Take 99' but nowhere near 99 takes available for listen on tape, probably because they were recorded overtop of.  If you were to question Lewisohn's work to the extent that you do George Martin & Ringo's 'Anthology' comments, there'd be much to learn for someone who says that they'd be "Happy to learn Something New"...:-)

12 February 2014
6.28pm
Ron Nasty
"Where have you been?" "I'm not telling you..."
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 3219
Member Since:
17 December 2012
Offline
72

I do not consider the Anthology statements as the last word. In Anthology Paul relates playing John a cassette of their latest recordings during filming of Help! in Austria, and comments on John's praise for Here, There and Everywhere and that it was the best of the bunch in John's opinion. Yet that was a year before it was recorded for Revolver, and if at best they were listening to a demo, why was it left off Help! and Rubber Soul? Anthology is not always the best source as it seems no-one involved ever went, "Er? Are you sure you've got that right?"

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
12 February 2014
6.39pm
Billy Rhythm
Shea Stadium
Forum Posts: 489
Member Since:
22 December 2013
Offline
73

mja6758 said
I do not consider the Anthology statements as the last word. In Anthology Paul relates playing John a cassette of their latest recordings during filming of Help! in Austria, and comments on John's praise for Here, There and Everywhere and that it was the best of the bunch in John's opinion. Yet that was a year before it was recorded for Revolver, and if at best they were listening to a demo, why was it left off Help! and Rubber Soul? Anthology is not always the best source as it seems no-one involved ever went, "Er? Are you sure you've got that right?"

 

And I feel the same way about Mark Lewisohn's account, and this is why I tend to question a lot of what I read, especially from those who weren't there.  Paul & George expressed a desire to get their own version of events out there before the 'Anthology' was released, and a lot of that motivation was the result of things being printed by those who weren't there claiming to know "what really happened".  Your example of 'Here, There & Everywhere' above was likely John mistaking it for 'Yesterday', perhaps even by design for he did like to mock Paul's "Granny S.....", oh never mind, people get offended by that stuff.  They really shouldn't though, for George called him "Beethoven" in a playful way after hearing 'Yesterday' for the first time, and he was most sincere when introducing it on 'Opportunity Knocks' (from the 'Anthology&#39a-hard-days-night-george-10 with "it features just Paul singing a very nice song called 'Yesterday'"...:-)

12 February 2014
6.57pm
tulane
Decca
Forum Posts: 87
Member Since:
7 February 2014
Offline
74

What about the timing of Pete's sacking?

Why did they sack him when they did?

I think Pete said himself "if I was so bad why did they take 2 years to decide to get rid of me?" or words to that effect.

12 February 2014
7.17pm
Ron Nasty
"Where have you been?" "I'm not telling you..."
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 3219
Member Since:
17 December 2012
Offline
75

Here is the quote from Paul not John, straight from Anthology, and varying little from Paul's multiple tellings of it (the earliest being 1988 to my knowledge, and the most recent 2007).

"John and I shared a room and we were taking off our heavy ski boots after a day's filming, ready to have a shower and get ready for the nice bit, the evening meal and the drinks. We were playing a cassette of our new recordings and my song Here, There qnd Everywhere was on. And I remember John saying, 'You know, I probably like that better than any of my songs on the tape.' Coming from John, that was high praise indeed."

That's exactly as it appears in Anthology. Now I think we can agree there is a problem there. It doesn't add up. I think it happened, but I think it happened during the Germany, Japan, Philippines leg of their '66 tour, just after they had finished Revolver, but that nobody's been brave enough to question Paul's story.

So I suggest if that is so wrong in Anthology, and the evidence shows it as wrong, doesn't that suggest other "mistakes" might be there.

You suggest that I too blindly following Mark Lewisohn's interpretation. I would say I am looking at all the evidence, some of which has been provided by Lewisohn, and evaluating. Lewisohn doesn't quote Geoff Emerick anywhere, whose second day at Abbey Road was the 4th, and Emerick has Ringo drumming. You suggest the 4th might not have been a real session but Martin says: "They never shirked on jobs. They didn't really want to do [How Do You Do It] but in the end they did quite a good job."

Adding, "I looked very hard at How Do You Do It but in the end I went with Love Me Do."

I look at all the contradictions, I assess the many sources and not just one expert's interpretation, and arrive at a view I am willing to argue.

And as to destroyed tapes, it is known that several early Beatles tapes were destroyed, another example being She Loves You.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
12 February 2014
8.16pm
Billy Rhythm
Shea Stadium
Forum Posts: 489
Member Since:
22 December 2013
Offline
76

As I implied earlier on with John, but now having read the quote that you provided, it's obvious that Paul mistook it for 'Yesterday' and if someone were to call him on it we'd likely get a "Oh, of course I meant to say 'Yesterday', oh my" response, but interviewers probably have many other things that they'd rather ask him about than this detail.  I find that when I put too much emphasis on fine details such as this, I'm focusing on the needles of the tree branches which greatly obscures my view of the whole forest, or bigger picture...:-) 

12 February 2014
8.35pm
Ron Nasty
"Where have you been?" "I'm not telling you..."
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 3219
Member Since:
17 December 2012
Offline
77

Except Yesterday was recorded in June 1965, and they were in Austria filming Help! in March. As I said, Paul is placing an an event at a time, however you play with it, is wrong. You're guessing he means Yesterday, I'm guessing he has the wrong location and date.

What cannot be argued, is that he has told that exact story for at least 20 years, and that it appears in Anthology, and so there is no way to argue that Anthology about Love Me Do may not contain mistakes. The majority of the evidence, statements (including from Ringo) and documents, suggest George Martin has misremembered.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
12 February 2014
11.07pm
Billy Rhythm
Shea Stadium
Forum Posts: 489
Member Since:
22 December 2013
Offline
78

And this is the same argument that I used to support George Martin's recollection, he told essentially the same story of 'Love Me Do' in interviews decades before the 'Anthology'.  Your 'Yesterday' example is another where you debunk any comments made by those who were there, simply because of Lewisohn's documentation.  Paul has said that 'Yesterday' had been hanging around for awhile because he didn't know what to do with it, it was even called 'Scrambled Eggs' for a time.  This was the title that George Martin had used for the song when he released an album of orchestral versions of various Beatles' songs before the song was finalized, you have a hard time accepting that Paul may have played a homemade cassette of his song to John before Mark Lewisohn says it was recorded?  Heck, 'I'll Follow The Sun' was demoed years before 'Beatles For Sale', Paul could very well be telling it accurately when he says that it was 'Here, There & Everywhere', I'd give him the benefit of the doubt on this one since nobody who was there has ever challenged him on it...:-)

Forum Timezone: Europe/London

Most Users Ever Online: 597

Currently Online: AppleScruffJunior, Ahhh Girl, MrMoonlight, georgiewood
64 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

meanmistermustard: 10421

mr. Sun king coming together: 6916

Ahhh Girl: 5543

parlance: 5532

Annadog40: 4766

mithveaen: 4651

Zig: 4555

Mr. Kite: 4331

Ron Nasty: 3219

fabfouremily: 2949

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 88

Members: 2686

Moderators: 4

Admins: 2

Forum Stats:

Groups: 3

Forums: 34

Topics: 3148

Posts: 140720

Newest Members: ieatglitter, phile24, ZoeLouk, arsentev78, Rocky You're a Blackbird

Moderators: Ahhh Girl: 5543, meanmistermustard: 10421, Zig: 4555, Joe: 3497

Administrators: Joe: 3497, Ellie: 1

Members Birthdays
Today: None
Upcoming: None