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Overrated vs. Underrated songs
7 June 2012
7.58pm
Camarasaur8
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If I Needed Someone is also massively underrated IMO.

Reverse the polarity of the jelly baby!
15 June 2012
1.58am
Jarcila
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Most overrated song ever :Yellow Submarine I really can't stand how  much other peolple like it and it gets me in me nerves that some people "like" The Beatlles and they only "Like" them for YS aia can see is a kids song and all but really is not a Beatle level song.

Underrated: The Word from Rubber Soul amazing song great lirycs magnificent bass great drumming but no one seems to know about it :(

15 June 2012
3.00am
Artie Fisk
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Well, I've always felt like the White Album, as a whole, is somewhat overrated.  I like it, but along with Let It Be and Abbey Road, it's the last Beatles album I'd choose.  I guess that's because these fall into what I call the "Classic Rock Beatles" category, and have been overplayed to DEATH by classic rock radio.  I am no longer subjected to bad classic rock radio very often, so perhaps this will lessen over time. 

That said, there are GREAT songs on those albums.  Just don't want to hear them, really, at this point.

 

Underrated is another story.  How about these:

Thank You Girl

When I Get Home

I'll Be Back

Every Little Thing (heck, just throw in most of the folk-rocky originals on Beatles For Sale while you're at it)

and more to come...

"There's nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be. It's easy: All You Need Is Love"
15 June 2012
5.40am
paulsbass
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I Me Mine said
Overrated: Yellow Submarine, Obladi-Oblada

Underrated: Lovely Rita, If I needed someone, For No One, Got To Get You Into My Life, I'm Only Sleeping

Oh well, Yellow submarine.

I guess the problem for many 15 year old teenagers is that it's just not excactly a "cool" song. It's a kid's song with funny vocals by Ringo and strange sound effects. So they find it hard to appreciate.

In my opinion, when someone is able to write a pop song that becomes a folk song almost immediatly ALL OVER THE WORLD he's a master and the song is a masterpiece, no doubt.

Sesame-Street made a cover version, even in German, and I guess in other languages as well. (btw, in some movie there is a kindergarten group singing "I will" with lovely movements and all!)

The chorus melody is up there with "Für Elise", "Smoke on the water", "Satisfaction", "Freude schöner Götterfunken", "Eine kleine Nachtmusik", whatever other melody you can think of that EVERYBODYknows and immediatly recognizes.

There are numerous "fun" lyrics in German over that insanely catchy melody, like "Hermann Löns die Heide, Heide brennt" or, for football fans, the infamous "Zieht den Bayern die Lederhosen aus" (against Bayern Munich).

 

Obladi, Oblada is another "fun" song that is not cool at all (although it contains some transsexual stuff) but pure fun.

And it's easily among their 5 best known songs on the planet, so it can't be overrated.

 

Btw, both songs are nowhere near my favourites, but they should get the respect they deserve.

 

Overlooked imo: Lovely Rita, Getting better, Fixing A Hole, The word, Savoy Truffle, You can't do that/When I get home, I'll be back, I'll be on my, I want you etc. etc.

15 June 2012
12.17pm
Into the Sky with Diamonds
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It's hard to over-rate a song that's never been musically highly rated to begin with.

But I'm with Paulsbass on this one: you've got to tip your hat to a song that can become instantly recognizable and popular world wide - for decades!

In my perhaps misguided attempt to "scientifically" rate Beatle songs (http://bit.ly/uVIM6L) I've factored in an "Impact Factor"

So "Yellow Submarine" perhaps doesn't score very high in some categories, but it gets a 10+ on impact.

 

A better discussion perhaps would be to figure out WHY "Yellow Submarine" has become so recognizable and popular.

"Into the Sky with Diamonds" (the Beatles and the Race to the Moon – a history)
15 June 2012
1.47pm
Artie Fisk
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This brings us to the question: Does a work or art's popularity directly correlate to its quality?  In general, I would say, "no." 

Of course, the Beatles changed the game by making pieces of music that were both very popular and very, very (in general) well-crafted, but there's really no way to connect popularity with quality.  Quality is a completely subjective thing, and while I am saddened to acknowledge it, I am sure that there are those for whom "Mambo #5" by Lou Bega represents the pinnacle of artistic achievement.  I'll never agree, but I cannot propose a metric to prove that they are incorrect. 

Sure, the Beatles are widely acknowledged to have made "great" songs.  Sure, there are many that seem to show more care, more time, more concern in the composition than others do.  Sure, many of my favorites may fall into the category of the former, such as "Martha, My Dear," (in my opinion, an exquisitely well-crafted composition, musically speaking, with piano playing of very high caliber for someone with no formal training), or "If I Fell," (for me, an example of John Lennon's innate songwriting genius and John and Paul's great facility in arranging -- harmonically rich and unusual, especially in the introduction). 

Just the same, I also love Beatles songs that were clearly NOT the product of painstaking hours of composition and arrangement, songs that were NOT labors of love, but rather seem to be flashes of perfectly-realized, quickly-done, innate musicality ("Baby, You're a Rich Man" comes to mind).  Some things, for me, cannot be analyzed, and fall under the heading of "pure joy."

So, while I can certainly say that I try to recognize the time and effort put in to a given work, I cannot say that I could ever base a judgement of "quality" on that criteria.  Ultimately, quality is a very personal thing, and cannot, in any real sense, be measured objectively.

I think that many people object to what they consider "silly" songs (songs that seem not to have been labors of love for the creators) receiving more attention than songs they consider "serious" (ones that seem to have been labors of love).  I have done so more than once.  The problem is that both "Yellow Submarine" and "Obladi Oblada," two songs discussed recently in this thread, are clearly the product of a great amount of time and effort and thought (at least in the studio), and yet are criticized for being "silly" or "frivolous" songs that unduly receive airplay and popularity.  And while I don't, as a rule, seek out either of these songs, I don't begrudge them their popularity.  I'd rather hear "Obladi" than "Mambo #5," and that's the truth.  I'd also rather hear "Every Little Thing" than "Obladi." 

It's like the "John vs. Paul" thing.  It's so subjective, and yet we're all very sure that we're correct, and if we could just find a way to "prove" that our opinions are valid, then the others who disagree with us would "see the light." 

I'm an English teacher, and one of the exercises I have every class engage in is an experiment in using "E-Prime," which is a subset of the English language that does NOT use the verb "to be" in any form.  Among many other things that using E-Prime can do for writers or thinkers is to force them to stop stating their opinions as facts.  Instead of saying "this song is good," the writer must instead choose a appropriate action verb and then construct a sentence in the active voice that places the action right after the subject, i.e., "I love this song."  Acknowledging the inherent subjectivity of all discourse is a key part of what makes E-Prime so worthwhile.  If I say "I love" or "I hate" a certain song, rather that "it's the best," or "it's terrible," then the discussion is open for someone to ask me what I love or hate about it, rather than to become offended at my absolute statement. 

So, the whole overrated/underrated thing is really about feeling upset that someone else has stated (or as much as stated) that a given song is "the best" or "the worst" in contrast to your own ideas about "the best" or "the worst." If we all were more careful in our verb choices, we'd avoid any conflicts like this one.

That said, I loves me some Beatles.  If forced to choose one album to listen to, I would choose "A Hard Day's Night." I'm not sure why, but I know that it just plain makes me feel good to listen to it, as though everything were right with the world. 

I enjoy life more when the Beatles are involved in it in some way. I love listening to them, thinking about them, talking about them, looking at pictures of them, and listening to them some more.

So, instead of worrying about what's overrated, why don't we focus on songs or records that we feel are underrated, that deserve wider attention? More positive, and no one gets upset at anyone else's criteria for judgement.

How do you all feel about "You Know My Name (Look Up the Number)?" I love it, for its silliness and for the pure joy of imagining them doing it.  The Paul "Dennis O'Bell" (sic?) section, John & Paul's Goon-esque grumbling at the end, John's Python-esque "old lady" section---it cracks me up every time I hear it, and reminds me that I like it when "geniuses" don't take themselves too seriously. I'd love it if more people heard this song.

"There's nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be. It's easy: All You Need Is Love"
15 June 2012
5.12pm
fabfouremily
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After reading your rather long post, Artie Fisk, I have to admit that I think you're right, I was wrong by dissing Obladi-Oblada and Yellow Submarine in my earlier post although I still believe that they are considered by people who don't really know The Beatles as two of their best, which they are not, most well - known, maybe, but best? no. But, after all, isn't it better to spread the word about underrated songs rather than talk/moan about ones that we consider to be overrated?

So, underrated :

You Can't Do That - although John wasn't that keen on it and he did say that he wised he had never wrote it, I love it and it's not recognised enough, in my humble opinion.

For No One - A beautiful song, no need to say anything else at all.

You're Going To Lose That Girl - Good example of how a (fairly) simple song can be so wonderful.

''We're just knocked out. We heard about the sell out. You gotta get an album out, you owe it to the people. We're so happy we can hardly count.''

15 June 2012
5.30pm
Constance
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"There's a Place"...not sure if it is underrated, per se, but seldom heard or discussed and it is a beautiful song with great vocals

"PS I Love You"...this song has been dismissed in some discussions but again, the vocals and harmonies are pretty amazing for so early in their recording career

 

"Don't Bother Me"...has been dismissed by some Beatles "experts" as George's first attempt at tinkering with songwriting...but it has a pretty good tune that sticks in my head. Not a bad song at all

"Things We Said Today"...maybe not underrated, but it seems to be overlooked and yet it is a timeless-sounding song that sounds just as modern today

 

"Tell Me What You See"...just a pretty, cool song without much hype

15 June 2012
11.22pm
mr. Sun king coming together
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paulsbass said

I Me Mine said
Overrated: Yellow Submarine, Obladi-Oblada

Oh well, Yellow submarine.

I guess the problem for many 15 year old teenagers is that it's just not excactly a "cool" song. It's a kid's song with funny vocals by Ringo and strange sound effects. So they find it hard to appreciate.

As a 15 year old teenager, that's not why I can't stand the song. I can't stand because I don't think it's a good song. It's repetitive, cheesy, and my clear vote for weakest song on Revolver. I get it's meant as a kids' song - it just falls in the hole between "parody of kids song" and "genuine attempt to create something for everything", and for that reason, it's an iPod skip every time.

In my opinion, when someone is able to write a pop song that becomes a folk song almost immediatly ALL OVER THE WORLD he's a master and the song is a masterpiece, no doubt.

Can someone explain this concept to me? Why should song visibility make one iota of difference in whether the song is any good? If that was the case, I'd be listening to Skrillex, Bieber, LMFAO and Katy Perry, and not what I listen to now. It shouldn't matter what everybody thinks or knows... it (Should) only matters what you (and what people you respect) think.

paulsbass said 
And it's easily among their 5 best known songs on the planet, so it can't be overrated.

 Paulsbass, you know I love you. And I'm cheering for Germany out of nothing but wanting you to win. But I truly hope you can elaborate on this sentence. I don't get it. Please. Help me understand it.

I tried to think of something powerful and moving… and failed.  "You were given a choice between war and dishonor - you chose dishonor, and you shall have war" - Winston Churchill
16 June 2012
3.49am
Into the Sky with Diamonds
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 In reference to "Yellow Submarine," Mr Sun King CT said "I get it's meant as a kids' song"

I would make a slight correction there:

It has certainly become a kid's song. (I was stunned a few years ago while vacationing on the isle of Capri to hear a group of 5 or 6 year old school children singing "Yellow Submarine." They probably didn't even speak English yet.)

I've never seen any suggestion, however, that it was written for kids.

(And here's a good example of how you can learn history through the Beatles)

The song is the quintessential example of the childlike spirit of the 60s. (At least among the under 30 set. Those over 30 were more interested in beating the Soviets to the Moon.)

"Theirs was a childlike vision of the world in the spirit of Jean-Jacques Rousseau and William Wordsworth. People were innately good, not only innocent at birth, but possessing the potential to remain that way – although, alas, society corrupts us all." (ITSWD) 

"Yellow Submarine" reflects that spirit - but it isn't the only Beatle song in that category: "All Together Now," "Rocky Raccoon," "Octopus Garden,"Bungalow Bill" are all songs with childlike qualities.

 

Mr Sun King CT also said, "Why should song visibility make one iota of difference in whether the song is any good?"

I agree: Visibility has no correlation with quality.

Having said that, a song with tremendous - and lasting-  popularity around the world has to be given some credit.

Rather than to say "the song's no good" I think it's more interesting to discuss what could possibly have made that song so famous over so many continents and for so long when everyone agrees (and has always agreed) that musically it's nothing special.

"Into the Sky with Diamonds" (the Beatles and the Race to the Moon – a history)
16 June 2012
2.33pm
mr. Sun king coming together
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Into the Sky, I have to disagree. It was meant as a kids' song, if McCartney can be believed. I'll check in a second. Yep, here's McCartney:
"I quite like children's things; I like children's minds and imagination. So it didn't seem uncool to me to have a pretty surreal idea that was also a children's idea. I thought also, with Ringo being so good with children - a knockabout uncle type - it might not be a bad idea for him to have a children's song, rather than a very serious song. He wasn't that keen on singing."

That's a pretty good reinforcement, I'd say.

As for your other point, I think the reason I can't stand YS is the elements it has that are conducive to widespread appeal (repetitive chorus, easy to sing verses and simple melody once you hear it) are all things I hate. It drives me crazy. So, I guess I can't see it. Good on you if you can.

I tried to think of something powerful and moving… and failed.  "You were given a choice between war and dishonor - you chose dishonor, and you shall have war" - Winston Churchill
16 June 2012
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Into the Sky with Diamonds
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Mean Mr Mustard CT said, "I have to disagree. It was meant as a kids' song, if McCartney can be believed. I'll check in a second. Yep, here's McCartney:
"I quite like children's things; I like children's minds and imagination. So it didn't seem uncool to me to have a pretty surreal idea that was also a children's idea."

 

Mean Mr Mustard CT, do you have the reference for that quote - specifically the date?

I strongly suspect that this is McCartney thinking back on the song many years later.

What self-respecting rock'n'roll band releases a song geared towards little kiddies? But hey, maybe I'm wrong; that's what this forum is all about.

"Into the Sky with Diamonds" (the Beatles and the Race to the Moon – a history)
16 June 2012
4.00pm
meanmistermustard
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I didnt say anything, it was Sun King.

 

But McCartney did say in the Anthology series he wanted to write a song that would be easy to sing by kids which is why its all simple to say words and a easy to pick up melody and that it would suit Ringo (its in Joe's entry for Yellow Submarine)

I quite like children's things; I like children's minds and imagination. So it didn't seem uncool to me to have a pretty surreal idea that was also a children's idea. I thought also, with Ringo being so good with children  - a knockabout uncle type - it might not be a bad idea for him to have a children's song, rather than a very serious song. He wasn't that keen on singing. (Paul, Anthology)

I was thinking of it as a song for Ringo, which it eventually turned out to be, so I wrote it as not too rangey in the vocal. I just made up a little tune in my head, then started making a story, sort of an ancient mariner, telling the young kids where he'd lived and how there'd been a place where he had a yellow submarine. It's pretty much my song as I recall, written for Ringo in that little twilight moment. I think John helped out; the lyrics get more and more obscure as it goes on but the chorus, melody and verses are mine. There were funny little grammatical jokes we used to play. It should have been 'Everyone of us has all he needs' but Ringo turned it into 'everyone of us has all we need.' So that became the lyric. It's wrong, but it's great. We used to love that. (Paul, Many Years From Now)

However i dont think that makes it a bad song. It was intended to be a song that was for the kids to sing along to and it does that incredibly well; its a very difficult thing to do to write a simple song that kids from all over the place can get almost instantly. When i was in school all the kids sang the Yellow Submarine chorus (this was the mid 80's), they didnt have a clue of any of the other words or who sang it but they knew the chorus.  

I get why folks dont like it and why it drives them into a frenzy of rage (that does happen), its one of those songs that splits opinion. Personally i dont think its anything great, certainly not amongst the best tracks on Revolver, but its not bad. I can play it and sing along waiting for She Said, She Said. 

He told us not to get overwhelmed by grief and whatever thoughts we have... to keep them happy, because any thoughts we have of him will travel to him wherever he is. (John Lennon - 27/8/67)
16 June 2012
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GeorgeTSimpson
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Overrated: Come Together, i know so many people who say it's the best beatles song but i think it's boring
Underrated: Not Guilty (not even on a beatles album)

Once there was a way to get back homewards. Once there was a way to get back home; sleep pretty darling do not cry. And I will sing a lullaby
16 June 2012
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fabfouremily
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GeorgeTSimpson said
Overrated: Come Together, i know so many people who say it's the best beatles song but i think it's boring
Underrated: Not Guilty (not even on a beatles album)

I agree with that, a lot of people immediately associate Come Together with The Beatles, along with Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds and a few others. They´re good songs, don´t get me wrong, and ones I always smile to but they are a little overrated, methinks.

The best are those that aren´t really talked about, many have already been mentioned. There´s a place or Anytime at all.

''We're just knocked out. We heard about the sell out. You gotta get an album out, you owe it to the people. We're so happy we can hardly count.''

16 June 2012
5.37pm
paulsbass
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Too bad, I thought Artie Fink had brought more sense and sensibility to the subject, and here we're back to talking about "overrated" (Come together) again...

And should I join in again in the bickering about YS? Well, since I'm being adressed personally, I think I kind of have to...

mr. Sun king coming together said

As a 15 year old teenager,

See, I know my folks... a-hard-days-night-paul-5

that's not why I can't stand the song. I can't stand because I don't think it's a good song.

Aaah, that explains it!

It's repetitive, cheesy, and my clear vote for weakest song on Revolver. I get it's meant as a kids' song - it just falls in the hole between "parody of kids song" and "genuine attempt to create something for everything", and for that reason, it's an iPod skip every time.

Well, MY vote goes to "I want to tell you", but to each his own!

I think I read the "Ringo/good with kids" quote in "Many years from now", and it makes sense to me. And I don't have a problem with it at all.

Kids all over the planet love it, so where's your problem? You don't have to like every song. And just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not a good song. And "good" has many meanings. It IS repetetive - clear sign of a successful song, makes it easy to remember. The melody is totally simple, and it's relentlessly catchy, driving the chords from the tonica to the dominante and back again like a natural force.

In my opinion, when someone is able to write a pop song that becomes a folk song almost immediatly ALL OVER THE WORLD he's a master and the song is a masterpiece, no doubt.

Can someone explain this concept to me? Why should song visibility make one iota of difference in whether the song is any good? If that was the case, I'd be listening to Skrillex, Bieber, LMFAO and Katy Perry, and not what I listen to now. It shouldn't matter what everybody thinks or knows... it (Should) only matters what you (and what people you respect) think.

So you think LMFAO and Katy Perry will be in songbooks and sung at campfires and in football stadiums and pubs ALL AROUND THE WORLD in 40 years?

You think any song by Katy Perry or Justin Bieber has become a "folk song"??

I don't get what you mean with "visibility".

If you talk about the fact that a song is very much present in many different ways after a long time - how is that NOT a sign for a certain quality??

paulsbass said 
And it's easily among their 5 best known songs on the planet, so it can't be overrated.

 Paulsbass, you know I love you. And I'm cheering for Germany out of nothing but wanting you to win. But I truly hope you can elaborate on this sentence. I don't get it. Please. Help me understand it.

Good for you, taking the winning side! apple01

When literally billions of people know a song like Obladi, Oblada, it can't be all bad.And if you are among the best known songs of the best known band in the world you don't have to take sh... from anyone!

Lots of words have already been made about the spirit of the song and how it touches people, and even George expressed how he envied Paul because he came up with all the characters in his songs...

Btw, I skip the song almost every time I listen to the WA because it's repetitive and cheesy and the over-enthusiastic mood is not always easy to take.

It's still one of THE Beatles songs.

It hurt Paul's reputation for some people, no doubt.

But it made billions of people happy for over 40 years now, including the Queen, and just because you don't feel like joining in in the fun doesn't mean it's a bad song.

 

The quality of a song doesn't only show in moments when you want to enjoy a complex musical work in a deeply personal moment.

Sometimes you just need a song EVERYONE can join in and have a good time.

Yellow submarine and Obladi, Oblada qualify for that ALL OVER THE PLANET for many decades now, and they keep doing so, and both melodies are already immortal.

Like it or not.

apple01

16 June 2012
11.31pm
Long John Silver
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Some here mentioned that Yesterday, Let it be, Come together, Lucy In The Sky With Diamonds are overrated... how can these songs be overrated?

Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see.
17 June 2012
1.41am
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Paulsbass - You're right. I may not like the song, but I guess it serves the purpose.

I tried to think of something powerful and moving… and failed.  "You were given a choice between war and dishonor - you chose dishonor, and you shall have war" - Winston Churchill
17 June 2012
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Artie Fisk
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Ummm,

 

I give up. 

 

However, I'd like to add one more thing to this brouhaha: Getting offended by someone else's aesthetic criteria (by definition different from yours) and attempting to convince the other person that you are "right" and he/she is "wrong" seems a dead-end street to me.  Ultimately, it's all tail-chasing.  I thought that these forums would be full of Beatle people discussing Beatle arcana and sharing theories.  I expected polite and intelligent discourse.  I understand that every Beatles fan has passions and that the personal connections to certain songs or records can be indescribably deep, but it isn't fun to read people bickering with each other, telling each other that their opinions are not valid.  Opinions are easy to develop and easy to agree or disagree with.  They are also no more than opinions. Should we all be offended that there are music fans who - gasp - dislike the Beatles?  Even though the Beatles' music is inextricably linked with almost every aspect of my life, I can dig why someone wouldn't want to hear them, or why someone would dislike them.  I wouldn't agree, but confronted with a non-Beatle fan, I'd ask what they were listening to, and then go take a listen to it.  Not so that I could somehow feel vindicated b/c what the non-Beatle fan liked was revealed as "bad," but because I've already heard the Beatles, and I probably HAVEN'T heard what this other chap is listening to, and I'm always looking for something new to listen to. 

Let me see if I can, contrary to TMBG's "Birdhouse in Your Soul," put too fine a point on this: Just because you like a song, that doesn't make it "great." Just because you listen to that song often doesn't make it "yours." You had nothing to do with it. Someone else wrote and recorded it, 40+ years ago.  You just find it pleasing to listen to and have personal associations with it.  If someone else dislikes it, they have offended no one.  While I might understand the individual who CREATED a song being a tad miffed if someone said, openly, "I don't like this" (if for no other reason than basic manners should have prevented that individual from doing so), if someone else dislikes a Beatles song that you like, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU.  You don't have any reason, then, to be offended.  You don't become part of the Beatles because you listen to them often. What I suggest we all ought to do when someone differs with our opinion is to go back and LISTEN, and THINK about why someone might feel the way they do.  Whether you agree or not, listening to something with "new ears" can radically reshape our understanding, and once in a while, teach us something, even if the opinion does, in fact, have a bearing on something we have legitimately created ourselves.

A brief example: My band has put out an EP and a full-length CD release.  While our recent full-length has been well-reviewed, our first EP didn't get great reviews.  Sure, I was miffed at some of them, especially when one reviewer essentially said most of it was boring.  Did he have the right to that opinion? Sure.  Did I disagree? Sure, at first.  I listened again, and after a while, and some deep thinking, had to admit that he was probably right.  It wasn't adventurous.  It was, in retrospect, a tad boring.  Was I alarmed? Damn straight.  I was alarmed that I'd allowed myself to put out music that bored someone.  What did I do? I listened more, and when we went in to record our full-length, you can be certain that we all took great pains to insure that it was in no sense, "boring."  When this chap disliked my record, my own songs that I had written, arranged, played, and sang, he was really helping me to be more self-aware.  Differences of opinion, especially about things we did not, ourselves, create, should make us think, make us reconsider, make us step back and reevaluate our own preconceived notions.  Hopefully, anyway. 

Had a conversation about the song "Every Little Thing" with a bandmate the other night. He said he didn't like the song much, b/c it sounded "sort of thrown together" to him, as if they hadn't spent much time on it.  I said that I liked it because of that very same quality. I happen to like things that are done with that feeling of "we just got this idea, and we're excited by it, so we're going to do it RIGHT NOW."  My bandmate prefers songs that show evidence of "work."  We ended up discussing the nature of creative pursuits, the differences between the instant and the painstakingly-produced, and arrived at the idea that both methods have great merits and that preferring one or the other is a matter of personal taste and the way one's brain is wired.  Had several beers, and had a great time talking about the things that mattered to both of us, in a civil, thought-provoking, manner.

Let's all lighten up a bit, can we?

"There's nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be. It's easy: All You Need Is Love"
17 June 2012
2.10am
mr. Sun king coming together
Nowhere Land
Apple rooftop
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Artie Fisk - who's this directed at? I really hope it wasn't directed at me. In this thread, I didn't want to seem to be offended, because it is opinions. I think I forget that for a bit, but again, as I believe you said earlier, quality is entirely subjective. I don't want to think that, because of some current bands I'm proud to say are listened to by good friends, but it's a very good thing to remember. I do hope I came across as civil - because nothing here is actually worth getting in a fight over.

I tried to think of something powerful and moving… and failed.  "You were given a choice between war and dishonor - you chose dishonor, and you shall have war" - Winston Churchill
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