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"Girl" , The song that has near perfect timing
1 February 2010
7.54pm
8tracktgdesk
Guest

This topic is about the Song "Girl" on the Beatles  Rubber Soul album. I strongly believe that this

song has one of the best  Middle 8 [ Intro-{Verse-Chorus}(Repeated)-Middle 8-{Verse-Chorus}(Repeated)-Outro ]sections   along with " We Can Work It Out"

The break down of the song is as followed:

—-

[First Verse-  8 bars]

 Is there anybody going to listen to my story
 All about the girl who came to stay? [couplet  1]
 She's the kind of girl you want so much it makes you sorry
 Still you don't regret a single day  [couplet  2]
 
[Refrain -  4 bars]
Ah girl, girl
 
[Second  verse - 8 bars]
 When I think of all the times I tried so hard to leave her
 She will turn to me and start to cry  [couplet  3]
 And she promises the earth to me and I believe her
 After all this time, I don't know why [couplet  4]
 
[Refrain - 4 bar]
Ah girl, girl
 
[Middle  8  -  8 bars]
 She's the kind of girl who puts you down
 When friends are there, you feel a fool  [couplet  5]
 When you say she's looking good
 She acts as if it's understood  She's cool, oh  [couplet  6]
 
[Refrain -  4 bars]
Ah girl, girl
 
[Verse   3 - 8 bars]  
 Was she told when she was young the pain would lead to pleasure?
 Did she understand it when they said  [couplet  7]
 That a man must break his back to earn his day of leisure
 Will she still believe it when he's dead?  [couplet  8]

[Refrain  4 bars]
 Ah girl, girl

[Instrumental   Break/Bridge - 8 bars]

[Refrain/Coda- 4 bars]

Ah girl, girl

—-

That's 60 bars in a song that is 2.33 minutes long. That one bar every 2.55 seconds. Look at the symmetry here it's all based on 4 and 8 It goes 8/4 , 8/4. 8/4/. 8/4, 8/4 with 8 couplets, 4 refrains and a ending coda.

Now what what makes "Girl" one of the most unique out of all the Beatles song is that if you start from the very beginning of the song and count the drum beats the right way, you will see that the song is perfect in timing. It will go 16/8, 16/8, 16/8, 16/8,16/8 which is exactly 120 , 60 bars and 120 downbeats then you have a almost perfect Beatles Song

Try this out yourself and start from the beginning and just count 1,2,3,4,5, 6. 7, 8,9, 10, 11,12,13,14, 15 16 for the first
verse, Then during the refrain count, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8. Then it's 16 for the second verse and 8 for the refrain The count will go 16 and then 8, and then 16 and then 8……. It takes some practice but give this a try. Eventually you can go from beginning to to end and count in groups of  16/8 16/8 The last one (number 120)  will be at the exact ending of the song.

Someone needs to count the amount of times Lennon says "Tit" I bet it's based on the number 8 or 4

All this and they didn't even use a alarm clock

That' it for today lesson. Maybe next week the ending 15 bars of " I want you, she's so heavy"

John Senchak Beatlogist john@antihotmail.com
http://www.antihotmail.com
(Number 8, Number 8, Number 8……..)

Holy cow, my "math required" is 8+1=9 Talk about spooky!!!

1 February 2010
9.50pm
mjb
Candlestick Park
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14 October 2009
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Firsty, nice to see you've lost your bold type!

Secondly, did you read this somewhere or did you work it out all by yourself? If it's the latter I have to ask how much time you have on your hands Laugh

At least this is a lot easier to understand than some of the text in that now famous book on here – you know, the one by Mr Everett!

"If we feel our heads starting to swell.....we just look at Ringo!"
2 February 2010
1.29am
iCaramba
Guest

Thanks for the lesson. I'll share that with my son. It's our favorite Beatles singalong song in the car! (I waited 'til he was 12 to tell him some of the truths about it…)

What about "Across The Universe"? Didn't John say that as a poem it had perfect meter?

2 February 2010
3.32am
8tracktgdesk
Guest

mjb said:

Firsty, nice to see you've lost your bold type!

Secondly, did you read this somewhere or did you work it out all by yourself? If it's the latter I have to ask how much time you have on your hands Laugh

At least this is a lot easier to understand than some of the text in that now famous book on here – you know, the one by Mr Everett!


The bold fonts where starting to  real annoy me.Surprised

I got this idea, after counting the bars of the orchestral crescendo  in Day in the Life. Just find the 9 bar and count forward as

the  40  members  play their instruments. After doing this , like hundreds of  times  I started to wonder if this could be

be done in  other songs especially  in ones that had a defined middle 8

I worked this out completely   on my own  without any  help from any book.  I worked from the middle out and did it in sections that's when I noticed  that their was a   distinct pattern in the song. This has been my point from the very beginning that  their is more to Beatles songs then what most listeners  realize.

When you write in music theory, you have to make sure that everyone understands it, otherwise, you are wasting  peoples time. This is  why I like " Recording The Beatles" so much   because of the detail and how things are clearly explained.

Where's Joe's opinion on this post?  His probably  counting right now!

John Senchak  Beatlogist john@antihotmail.com

"Life is very short/ and theirs no time/ for fussing and fighting my friend"

2 February 2010
3.36am
8tracktgdesk
Guest

iCaramba said:

Thanks for the lesson. I'll share that with my son. It's our favorite Beatles singalong song in the car! (I waited 'til he was 12 to tell him some of the truths about it…)

What about "Across The Universe"? Didn't John say that as a poem it had perfect meter?


Many, Beatless songs have near perfect timing  more then likely a huge influence  by Sir Martin's  classical training

John Senchak  Beatlogist  john@antihotmail.com

3 February 2010
11.27am
mjb
Candlestick Park
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14 October 2009
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8tracktgdesk said:


Many, Beatless songs have near perfect timing  more then likely a huge influence  by Sir Martin's  classical training


What a brilliant typo! Very good Wink

"If we feel our heads starting to swell.....we just look at Ringo!"
3 February 2010
6.05pm
8tracktgdesk
Guest

mjb said:

8tracktgdesk said:


what a brilliant typo! Very good Wink

Has anyone confirmed  what I wrote here?  It's with out a doubt a 4/4  time signature  which most people would say "Big deal" But

my point here is the drumming is almost in near  perfect time, something that you don't see to often

Look at this link on the song in question:

http://www.torvund.net/guitar/…..?page=Pl_g

Clearly  the author mentions a 4/4 meter but  He's calling the middle 8  a bridge, where I call the instrumental  break the bridge.  He goes on to mention "The verse is eight measures long (I agree) and is built out of two parallel phrases" which is more then likely why a person can count through to 16 during the 4  sections ( three verses and middle 8 ) 

For the middle 8 (the author calls it the bridge)  says "The bridge is structured similarly to the verse, being eight measures long and built out of two parallel phrases that have identical melodies with a slightly varied harmonization for the second one.

He then goes on to say that  the refrain is "four measures built out of two short parallel phrases" 

This would confirm by theory  that the song is 8/4. 8/4,8/4, 8/4, 8/4  and that more then likely Sir Martin  intentional  built the song around  very stringent  meter  arrangements.  This could be why someone can count from 1-16 on the verse and  middle 8 and 1-8 during the refrain.

Is their  actual more to Beatles songs, then what most people realize? Maybe we are just starting to realize the huge impact that

Sir  George Martin   had on their songs. He just didn't play half speed (tape record half speed/ playback. mix full speed) piano or organ on many of their songs. I think his influence   goes way beyond that, and that would also include all the people who worked at Abbey Road Studios.

John Senchak  Beatlogist  john@antihotmail.com

"Here's a clue for you all, the walrus was Sir George Martin"

3 February 2010
7.14pm
skye
AZ
Apple rooftop
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13 November 2009
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Wait, I though mjb was refering to how you spelt Beatles?

Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo! So little time! So much to know!
4 February 2010
4.00am
8tracktgdesk
Guest

skye said:Wait, I though mjb was refering to how you spelt Beatles?


I give up, it's  all Beatles 101 in this forum.   Hello the main topic is about the song "Girl"  not how I made the typo Beat-Less. 

Where's Joe been?  We need some "words of wisdom" here. Maybe he's still counting bars, hint listen to the song through

a pair of headphones to find the right drum down beat, then follow it along…..  It's like finding the 9th bar in " Day in the

Life", once you find it,  you can count along with Mal Evans. No  alarm clock required

Remember 4/4  or in this case it's 8/4 if you follow the right drum beat. Cool

John Senchak Beatlogist john@antihotmail.com

"Cranberry Sauce, …. Cranberry Sauce"

4 February 2010
6.19am
PaulRamon
Liverpool
The Star-Club
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26 January 2010
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"The verse is eight measures long (I agree) and is built out of two parallel phrases"

Maybe the reason no one replies to stuff like this above is because maybe like me, most of what you say goes right over their heads and they don't know what your talking about! It's great that you are very musically minded and you understand and have an interest in all that side of The Beatles music but don't be having a go at other people because they choose not to answer you.

Maybe this isn't the right Forum for you, you might want to try and find one that concentrates a bit more in what you are interested in. Just a thought

Onward my friends, and glory for the thirty ninth!!
4 February 2010
10.58am
Joe
Pepperland
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8tracktgdesk said:

I give up, it's  all Beatles 101 in this forum.   Hello the main topic is about the song "Girl"  not how I made the typo Beat-Less. 

Where's Joe been?  We need some "words of wisdom" here. Maybe he's still counting bars, hint listen to the song through

a pair of headphones to find the right drum down beat, then follow it along…..  It's like finding the 9th bar in " Day in the

Life", once you find it,  you can count along with Mal Evans. No  alarm clock required


I'm here, but I don't have a great deal to offer. A great many songs have regular meter – it's not really anything remarkable, let along perfect, IMO.

In fact, I'd suggest it's normally more interesting when a song has irregular time signatures, such as Good Morning Good Morning or even Revolution (a bar of 2/4 in amongst the 4/4, where Lennon sings "We-elll you…"). The chorus of She Loves You, which begins the 'Yeah yeah yeah' on the third beat of the bar, and spans the following bar, is far more interesting to me than the regularity of Girl.

Do you play any musical instruments? A 4/4 beat and cycles of four/eight bars are perhaps the least interesting thing about modern pop music. The reason a middle eight is called so is because sequences of eight bars (or four or sixteen) are used so often. The ninth bar is just the first bar of a new sequence. Starting the crescendo on the ninth bar of A Day In The Life is merely following a basic musical convention that goes far back further than The Beatles.

In honestly, I've got better things to do than count bars in songs. It strikes me – and I say this without malice or insinuation – that it's the sort of thing someone on the autistic spectrum might be compelled to do, eg an Asperger's sufferer. Why someone would do it out of choice I really don't know.

Aren't the changing rhythms of Girl between the verses and chorus, and the staccato ending, more worthy of comment? Or what about the switches between the minor key verses and the major key chorus?

Please don't spoil my day; I'm miles away

Can buy me love! Please consider using these links to support the Beatles Bible: Amazon | iTunes

4 February 2010
12.13pm
mjb
Candlestick Park
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skye said:Wait, I though mjb was refering to how you spelt Beatles?


I was, but it seems 8track didn't (or refused to) get the jioke Wink

Perhaps he took it as in insult, but it was not meant that way. I think I'll drop out of this thread Yell

"If we feel our heads starting to swell.....we just look at Ringo!"
4 February 2010
4.01pm
8tracktgdesk
Guest
13

PaulRamon said:

"The verse is eight measures long (I agree) and is built out of two parallel phrases"

Maybe the reason no one replies to stuff like this above is because maybe like me, most of what you say goes right over their heads and they don't know what your talking about! It's great that you are very musically minded and you understand and have an interest in all that side of The Beatles music but don't be having a go at other people because they choose not to answer you.

Maybe this isn't the right Forum for you, you might want to try and find one that concentrates a bit more in what you are interested in. Just a thought


I don't been to be condescending  here, but have you ever thought about learning more so that you can fully understand  and appreciate

what you  are listening to.  Once  you get out of Beatles 101, you will appreciate  all music a lot more.

Have you ever watched the seventies children show " Fat Albert"  Bill Cosby  use to say in the opening "stick around, you may end

up learning  something"

John Senchak Beatlogist john@antihotmail.com

" Time for tea, and meet the wife"

4 February 2010
4.09pm
8tracktgdesk
Guest
14

mjb said:

skye said:Wait, I though mjb was refering to how you spelt Beatles?


I was, but it seems 8track didn't (or refused to) get the jioke Wink

Perhaps he took it as in insult, but it was not meant that way. I think I'll drop out of this thread Yell


I did not take it as a insult.   Cool   I just think that the topic is  about a Beatles Song, not if a  someone made a typo that turned

out to be funny.   Hey what can I say, I take Beatles music seriously

John Senchak  Beatlogist  john@antihotmail.com

"The girl with kaleidoscope  eyes"

4 February 2010
5.56pm
Joe
Pepperland
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PaulRamon said:

"The verse is eight measures long (I agree) and is built out of two parallel phrases"

Maybe the reason no one replies to stuff like this above is because maybe like me, most of what you say goes right over their heads and they don't know what your talking about!


I appreciate you're making a wider point, but to clarify the parallel phrases comment by Alan W Pollack, quoted by 8track, the two phrases are:

1: Is there anybody going to listen to my story, all about the girl who came to stay (four bars)
2: She's the kind of girl you want so much it makes you sorry; still you won't regret a single day (four bars)

I hope I got those lyrics right from memory! Anyway, in these terms, 'phrases' are parts of the overall melody. Each of those follows the same notes, hence parallel phrases.

The 2x four bars makes an eight-measure/bar verse.

Please don't spoil my day; I'm miles away

Can buy me love! Please consider using these links to support the Beatles Bible: Amazon | iTunes

4 February 2010
11.47pm
iCaramba
Guest

8tracktgdesk said:I don't been to be condescending  here, but have you ever thought about learning more so that you can fully understand  and appreciate

what you  are listening to.  Once  you get out of Beatles 101, you will appreciate  all music a lot more.

While I truly enjoy learning from people with your type of knowledge, please remember that not all of us have musical training… and many of us can love music without knowing about the more technical aspects of composition. And we don't need to in order to enjoy profoundly the beauty of a song like Girl… or any Beatles/Beatless song. One of the reasons that music is such an important part of human culture is that it touches us emotionally… it's essentially a form of communication, a way for people to share their experiences and feelings. You don't need to understand all the technical aspects of it to reap its rich rewards.

I cannot sit there and deconstruct each song and its composition from a technical standpoint, but I'm no Beatle 101er. I know the stories behind the songs, what they make me feel/think about, what John or Paul or George or even Ringo communicate… to me, that's what I get out of listening to music.

Peace

5 February 2010
12.54am
PaulRamon
Liverpool
The Star-Club
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Member Since:
26 January 2010
Offline

I don't been to be condescending  here, but have you ever thought about learning more so that you can fully understand  and appreciate

what you  are listening to.  Once  you get out of Beatles 101, you will appreciate  all music a lot more.

Have you ever watched the seventies children show " Fat Albert"  Bill Cosby  use to say in the opening "stick around, you may end

up learning  something"

John Senchak Beatlogist john@antihotmail.com

" Time for tea, and meet the wife"


 

Sorry but i do fully appreciate what i am listening to and thats because great musc gives me immense pleasure, not just by The Beatles but by lots of people. because the words and melody make me feel different emotions and i couldn't see myself feeling that same joy by sitting there counting bars.

 If i offended you i'm sorry

Thanks for the post explaining things Joe but i still don't undersrand it. I know the chords to Girl and what fret to put the Capo on. I like to learn music by ear. I know you like to keep the peace so i've said my last word on the subject.

Onward my friends, and glory for the thirty ninth!!
5 February 2010
5.15am
8tracktgdesk
Guest

I'm here, but I don't have a great deal to offer. A great many songs have regular meter – it's not really anything remarkable, let along perfect, IMO.

Not a good thing for a Beatles  forum  administrator  to not  have much  of a opinion on a subject matter, like this. Most rock/pop have a 4/4 meter  but it's from  this base form that  the  many great songs are built]Laugh

In fact, I'd suggest it's normally more interesting when a song has irregular time signatures, such as Good Morning Good Morning or even Revolution (a bar of 2/4 in amongst the 4/4, where Lennon sings "We-elll you…"). The chorus of She Loves You, which begins the 'Yeah yeah yeah' on the third beat of the bar, and spans the following bar, is far more interesting to me than the regularity of Girl.

Now  time for my two cents.  I think you are heading in the right directions with this opinion.   I think it goes way beyond just Beatles songs, when it comes to moving away from the usual 4/4 meter. I think the  Beatles where the foundation in which   other groups saw the way their songs utilized  the 4/4 meter and expanded on it in outstanding ways.  Have you ever heard the meter changes in Brian Wilson (The Wrecking Crew) Pet Sounds Album . Some of the ways Wilson  went from verse to refrain  are just jaw  dropping when it comes to meter change. A good example of this is the middle bridge in " God only knows"  What influenced  Brian Wilson to make Pet Sounds, it was " Rubber Soul  and what he heard on songs like "Girl"   Another group that does some real nice meter changes is my second  favorite group of all time " The Moody Blues" / Post Denny Laine >

Do you play any musical instruments? A 4/4 beat and cycles of four/eight bars are perhaps the least interesting thing about modern pop music. The reason a middle eight is called so is because sequences of eight bars (or four or sixteen) are used so often. The ninth bar is just the first bar of a new sequence. Starting the crescendo on the ninth bar of A Day In The Life is merely following a basic musical convention that goes far back further than The Beatles.

Negative   on playing a  musical  instrument but I like the sound of Cellos, Oboes , viola's  and many  other instruments. Now, I think you are completely  wrong because without the base of 4/4 and 4/8  you wouldn't have rock and roll,  I  think 4/4 is interesting due to the simple  fact  it's the base in which you create more  complecated   songs

In honestly, I've got better things to do than count bars in songs. It strikes me – and I say this without malice or insinuation – that it's the sort of thing someone on the autistic spectrum might be compelled to do, eg an Asperger's sufferer. Why someone would do it out of choice I really don't know.

Gotta get my boxer shorts at K-Mart.Ten minutes to Wapner. We're definitely locked in this box with no TV.   LaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh

Aren't the changing rhythms of Girl between the verses and chorus, and the staccato ending, more worthy of comment? Or what about the switches between the minor key verses and the major key chorus?

I prefer to listen to the staccato   notes heard on " God only Knows" middle section"

[How's Dreamhost.com/ Linode.com as a hosting service. Your domain registration is due on March 10 2010 Just
a freindly reminder ]

John Senchak  Beatlogist  john@antihotmail.com

"O untimely Death! Death!"

5 February 2010
11.52am
Joe
Pepperland
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4/4 is a time signature. Meter is the underlying structure of a song, melody etc, the patterns and accents, and organisation of beats. It's a distinction worth knowing, and music theory 101 (to use an American idiom).

When I said that cycles of four or eight bars are one of the least interesting things about modern music, I stand by that. It may be a convention on which a lot of music is built, but to hold it up as something remarkable misses the point. It's more noteworthy when songs depart from that (eg Michelle is generally built around phrases six bars long, with the odd four-bar phrase thrown in, but even that's not exactly revolutionary).

I  think 4/4 is interesting due to the simple  fact  it's the base in which you create more  complecated   songs

I haven't a clue what you're talking about in honesty. You can build immensely complicated songs in any time signature, key or tempo. You may as well say that bricks are important as they're the base upon which you create complicated buildings. They are, but that doesn't make them particularly noteworthy in and of themselves. There are more interesting things to factor in.

I prefer to listen to the staccato   notes heard on " God only Knows" middle section"

Those are predominantly legato notes. Again, I'm reluctant to call you up on all these points but it's basic music theory. You don't need to know any of it to enjoy The Beatles but I'm just trying to explain why there are bigger things going on in the songs than phrases built around sequences of eight bars or whatever.

[Linode is far better for hosting than Dreamhost, incidentally. I only use DH for domain registrations. Thanks for the domain renewal reminder but it's all in hand. 10 March is the second birthday of this site - go us!]

Please don't spoil my day; I'm miles away

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