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Fourth guitar on "Ticket To Ride"...
21 February 2013
9.19pm
vonbontee
Inside a Letterbox
Apple rooftop
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And yet Paul was good enough to take searing solos on "Taxman" and "Good Morning Good Morning"

I just want to play. I’d like to think I could work opposite Sinatra, B.B. King, the Beatles, or a polka band... - Jazz musician Rahsaan Roland Kirk, 1967
21 February 2013
9.39pm
Ron Nasty
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vonbontee said
And yet Paul was good enough to take searing solos on "Taxman" and "Good Morning Good Morning"

This would be my point. While Lewisohn made mistakes, and admitted them, he has rarely been wrong about who played what, having had the privilege of hearing the raw tapes. TTR is one of the songs that he gives a detailed breakdown on, and he names Paul as playing the opening lead guitar. Yet there are those, despite his achievements as lead guitarist on songs he didn't write, who want to take away from him something that all the sources, primary and secondary, said he did.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
21 February 2013
11.53pm
RunForYourLife
Ed Sullivan Show
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It's hardly unique to Paul. I've seen the solos in "She's A Woman", "Slow Down", "Run For Your Life" among others erroneously credited to he and John.

22 February 2013
2.16am
Into the Sky with Diamonds
New York
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So.... just to be contrarian.

McCartney is not a lead guitarist, we can all agree on that. He's never had to; he's never shown an inclination to practice speed and agility; he's never recorded anything more than flights of notes as solos.

But

- he's always been an extraordinarily inventive guitarist. I don't know that I agree that he's always "in the box" as Beatlebob63 says (by the way, welcome Beatlebob63). By "in the box" I assume you mean that a solo from a song in the key of A will be within frets 5-7? "Blackbird" doesn't sound "in the box" nor does "Hot As Sun" (from McCartney). As in the box as they may be, McCartney's little frills in "Another Girl"  and the solo in "The Night Before" work beautifully.

- Harrison was not the prototypical "rock" lead guitarist either.  The only awesome Beatle guitar solo is by Clapton. Harrison was more of a country band guitarist, throwing in little fills and frills (my favorite being the intro to "Octopus Garden") and also being very inventive.

(By the way, who came up with the guitar riffs for "I'm Only Sleeping"? George? John?)

"Into the Sky with Diamonds" (the Beatles and the Race to the Moon – a history)
22 February 2013
2.26am
Ron Nasty
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Though for quite a while he was The Beatles lead guitarist, after George messed up his live debut as lead with sticky fingers. Remember, when Stu was in the band, it was only John who had a set role as rhythm guitarist. George and Paul were alternating between lead and 2nd rhythm. You cannot ignore the hours and hours when they were a five-piece.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
22 February 2013
5.02am
sinco
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Into the Sky with Diamonds said
The only awesome Beatle guitar solo is by Clapton.

I'm not sure what you're trying to imply by 'awesome', but I think the Hey Bulldog guitar solo sounds pretty awesome!

22 February 2013
1.40pm
Into the Sky with Diamonds
New York
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Hi Sinco, you're talking to the world's #1 "Hey Bulldog" fan.

Hi heard it one morning on the radio in '68, loved it instantly - and the song disappeared. I wasn't even really sure who the band was.

[As we were just saying in another thread here on the Forum, the song was not in the American release of the Yellow Submarine movie].

And then of course I found it on the album.

Having said all that, it's a perfectly good guitar solo (as is the solo on the single version of Let It Be, I Don't Want To Spoil The Party, Nowhere Man, ...) but if I had to take 20 guitar solos with me on a desert island, I don't know that there would be a Harrison solo in there. His solos complement Beatle songs beautifully, like having just the right mustard on a sandwich, but I don't think of them as awesome solos in their own right.

And just to emphasize the point, that's not a knock on him. His guitar playing was perfect for the Beatles - and that's what you want out of your lead guitarist.

"Into the Sky with Diamonds" (the Beatles and the Race to the Moon – a history)
22 February 2013
2.14pm
DrBeatle
Boston
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Into the Sky with Diamonds said
Hi Sinco, you're talking to the world's #1 "Hey Bulldog" fan.

Hi heard it one morning on the radio in '68, loved it instantly - and the song disappeared. I wasn't even really sure who the band was.

[As we were just saying in another thread here on the Forum, the song was not in the American release of the Yellow Submarine movie].

And then of course I found it on the album.

Having said all that, it's a perfectly good guitar solo (as is the solo on the single version of Let It Be, I Don't Want To Spoil The Party, Nowhere Man, ...) but if I had to take 20 guitar solos with me on a desert island, I don't know that there would be a Harrison solo in there. His solos complement Beatle songs beautifully, like having just the right mustard on a sandwich, but I don't think of them as awesome solos in their own right.

And just to emphasize the point, that's not a knock on him. His guitar playing was perfect for the Beatles - and that's what you want out of your lead guitarist.

You know, I was ready to disagree with you with your Clapton comment, but I read the above and...I agree with you 100%. He was a great guitarist and perfect for The Beatles, but if you're going to stand his solos up to others by Clapton, Page, Hendrix, Townshend, etc you wouldn't even pick one. And again, as a HUGE Beatles fan myself, not a knock on George. I'd feel the same about Ringo...a fantastic drummer and perfect for the band, but you wouldn't put him in the same breath as Moon, Bonham, etc

"I know you, you know me; one thing I can tell you is you got to be free!"

 

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22 February 2013
2.25pm
Long John Silver
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Into the Sky with Diamonds said
Do you think the Beatles (and Brian Epstein and George Martin) would have allowed albums to go out with flatly incorrect liner notes?

But here's another angle:

Most of the riffs are pretty easy to play. Ringo could have played them.

I'm not so curious as to who played what in the studio

What I wonder is, "Who came up with them?" They're all wonderfully creative and effective.

For all the reasons you guys have mentioned, you can't assume that the person who came up with the riff is actually the one playing it.

Exactly. I can understand curiosity of who played what, but it was their role in the group, they didn't came up with that sound. Ticket To Ride is Lennon's song, and no matter who played the opening riff, it was his composition, his chords, call it whatever you like, and who plays it is irrelevant as all their guitar skills were good enough to play any of their songs. It was like John played solo on Get back, but that was Paul song, his "solo" no matter who played it.

P.S. Let's not make this a Paul vs George thread again :)

Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see.
22 February 2013
2.58pm
vonbontee
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Couldn't agree more. Let's mix it up a bit and make it a Paul vs. Ringo thread! "It was PAUL who thought up that distinctive drum part for Ringo to play!" "But Ringo played it better than Paul ever could! His 'touch' is absolutely, uniquely his and his alone!" Etc.

Actually, motivated by this thread, I was listening to Help! (and AHDN and For Sale) last night, thinking about this song and wishing, not for the first time, that Ringo had continued to use that beat throughout the second half of the song, rather than just abandoning it right after the first bridge. I wonder why he did that?

I just want to play. I’d like to think I could work opposite Sinatra, B.B. King, the Beatles, or a polka band... - Jazz musician Rahsaan Roland Kirk, 1967
22 February 2013
3.46pm
Inner Light
Friar Park
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Long John Silver said

Into the Sky with Diamonds said
Do you think the Beatles (and Brian Epstein and George Martin) would have allowed albums to go out with flatly incorrect liner notes?

But here's another angle:

Most of the riffs are pretty easy to play. Ringo could have played them.

I'm not so curious as to who played what in the studio

What I wonder is, "Who came up with them?" They're all wonderfully creative and effective.

For all the reasons you guys have mentioned, you can't assume that the person who came up with the riff is actually the one playing it.

Exactly. I can understand curiosity of who played what, but it was their role in the group, they didn't came up with that sound. Ticket To Ride is Lennon's song, and no matter who played the opening riff, it was his composition, his chords, call it whatever you like, and who plays it is irrelevant as all their guitar skills were good enough to play any of their songs. It was like John played solo on Get back, but that was Paul song, his "solo" no matter who played it.

P.S. Let's not make this a Paul vs George thread again :)

 

Thank you!

The further one travels, the less one knows
26 February 2013
10.41pm
Beatlebob63
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Hey guys, my writing interpretation (phrasing) was a little off, Mark Lewissohn's book I meant was good, but the best book is Andy Babiuk's Beatle Gear Revised addition and Here There Everywhere, Geoff Emerick, I didn't write the way I meant, my bad.  All I was trying to say there, is (Babiuk's) said  through his extensive research that Lennon played the opening licks to TTR, hands down I agree because usually whoever wrote it sung lead and some capacity played a dominant

riff or in Lennon's case, the beginning, he plays it at Shea.  Is George capable? of course, but Lennon's playing the studio opening in my book.   I mean, look at Lennon in Get Back, he had no business playing that lead, I was surprised as anyone before I saw all the pictures as a kid and the movie later on that it was him, I assumed it was George, he got better on lead, heroin addict or not at the time.  Lennon was very sick during Let it be, car accidents, missing studio time but that's another area of the FORUM.  Won't bore you here.

But anyway, I read in and am still reading, LENNON, a very comprehensive book about him and THEM that TTR was definitely inspired by his mom.  I didn't think it was until I read that and listened to the words. He's talking about her saying goodbye, not coming back, 'she oughta think twice, she outta do right by me"....that's his mum he's talking about...the most dominant female in his life before Yoko came to town.  Plus he called Yoko mother all the time...that's not an English thing I don't believe, that's just weird....at least that's what George thought at that time.

Hey, I was as surprised as you guys are/were, but I read TTR being about his mom.  Sorry about the confusion of the book's above, Mark's is not correct in addressing the opening of TTR or at least I don't agree with it.  What do I know, I wasn't there but I did/do read a lot and it stuck, that fact.  I'll back it up somehow if you guys don't believe me...

 

Ask Me Why?  I Want to Tell You...

26 February 2013
11.30pm
Monkey Finger
The Kaiserkeller
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 if I had to take 20 guitar solos with me on a desert island, I don't know that there would be a Harrison solo in there. His solos complement Beatle songs beautifully, like having just the right mustard on a sandwich, but I don't think of them as awesome solos in their own right. And just to emphasize the point, that's not a knock on him. His guitar playing was perfect for the Beatles - and that's what you want out of your lead guitarist.

 

To me, perfectly complimenting the song is the definition of a great solo. One of my pet peeves of guitarists is busy, overcomplicated solos that don't serve the song. In keeping with that, George's solo on "Something" is not only one of his best (if not THE best), I'd rank it up there in the best ever, period. Melodic, simple yet dynamic and emotional. Everything you could want in a solo.

27 February 2013
10.44pm
Beatlebob63
St Peters Church
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This whole thread is becoming more interesting by the day, starting with Paul's guitar solo talents to George not measuring up against Claption's to Ringo's drummer, don't even get me started with that.  I love Ringo but he was so weak and small that Geoff Emerick has to mic's underneath the skins around 63 because he couldn't get Ringo to hit them hard enough.  Good for the intricate fills he needed to do with the unusual beats John and Paul demanded, for THAT he was great.  Drumming though, same analogy as below, no Bonham, no Moon, maybe Henley...maybe...

I don't think anyone can compare Clapton to ANYONE.  At least not in our lifetime, Hendrix and Page, that's it. I consider those three guys equal.

George was the best fit for Beatles music which is the BEST music in my lifetime.  And as for Paul, guys I'm not ever going to try to take any of his natural abilities of greatness to play any instrument, any day, any year, at any age he was, I just think he was the BEST Bass Player.  Some would argue that John Entwistle was better than him so on and so forth, it's subjective.  Because McCartney was in the best Show on the earth while it lasted, he gets my vote.  I just don't think he was the best electric guitar lead guitarist in any group let alone the The Fabs.  George was better lead.  Why do you think he looked up Denny Laine and Henry McCollough?  C'mon guys..Listen to McCartney(solo album).  Had he done that for 10 years, he would not have been the hit machine in the 70's that Phil Collins was in the 80's.

I respect the fact that the Pro-Lewisohn's out there think I'm wrong about the opening to TTR, I know it's Lennon, it's a Fender Ventura, I know guitars, I play them, McCartney is not playing a Fender Ventura in that song on lead and he wasn't double tracked, Lennon and George were and

this article I find illustrates a good point, Paul initially had to play bass with the drum track so it would've not been possible for him to play the lick.  Interestingly enough they call it a Strat, it's still a Ventura and I'll show you guys that section of Beatle Gear with him playing it.

Lewisohn 'suggested' after he wrote his book that TTR 'may have' had some layered guitar work in there(per interview) after the several initial tracks were laid down which suggests and in reality that the song took WAY longer than it should have and THEY ALL played on it in several capacities.  Lennon thought the song was one of his best,THE only heavy metal song out at the time behind all the 'crap' that was released in '65 from the rest of the artists out there that year.  He said that in '80 but you probably already know that.

Instrumentation:

  • John Lennon - Lead Vocals, Rhythm Guitar (1964 Rickenbacker 325-12) 1961 Sonic Blue Fender Stratocaster
  • Paul McCartney - Bass Guitar (1963 Hofner 500/1), Lead Guitar (1962 Epiphone Casino ES-230TD), Harmony Vocals
  • George Harrison – Lead and Rhythm Guitar (1963 Rickenbacker 360-12 Fire-Glo)
  • Ringo Starr –  Drums (1964 Ludwig Super Classic Black Oyster Pearl), tambourine, handclaps
27 February 2013
11.20pm
Ben Ramon
Candlestick Park
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Beatlebob63 said

George was better lead.  Why do you think he looked up Denny Laine and Henry McCollough?  C'mon guys..Listen to McCartney(solo album).  Had he done that for 10 years, he would not have been the hit machine in the 70's that Phil Collins was in the 80's.

Although I agree wholeheartedly that George was a better guitarist than Paul, I'd also like to point out that Paul played the absolute majority of the lead guitar on Band on the Run, his most successful and acclaimed album and the one that kick-started his status as a 70s "hit machine."

 

SHUT UP - Paulie's talkin'
28 February 2013
12.19am
Long John Silver
Hollywood Bowl
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Beatlebob63 said
This whole thread is becoming more interesting by the day, starting with Paul's guitar solo talents to George not measuring up against Claption's to Ringo's drummer, don't even get me started with that.  I love Ringo but he was so weak and small that Geoff Emerick has to mic's underneath the skins around 63 because he couldn't get Ringo to hit them hard enough.  Good for the intricate fills he needed to do with the unusual beats John and Paul demanded, for THAT he was great.  Drumming though, same analogy as below, no Bonham, no Moon, maybe Henley...maybe...

I don't think anyone can compare Clapton to ANYONE.  At least not in our lifetime, Hendrix and Page, that's it. I consider those three guys equal.

George was the best fit for Beatles music which is the BEST music in my lifetime.  And as for Paul, guys I'm not ever going to try to take any of his natural abilities of greatness to play any instrument, any day, any year, at any age he was, I just think he was the BEST Bass Player.  Some would argue that John Entwistle was better than him so on and so forth, it's subjective.  Because McCartney was in the best Show on the earth while it lasted, he gets my vote.  I just don't think he was the best electric guitar lead guitarist in any group let alone the The Fabs.  George was better lead.  Why do you think he looked up Denny Laine and Henry McCollough?  C'mon guys..Listen to McCartney(solo album).  Had he done that for 10 years, he would not have been the hit machine in the 70's that Phil Collins was in the 80's.

I respect the fact that the Pro-Lewisohn's out there think I'm wrong about the opening to TTR, I know it's Lennon, it's a Fender Ventura, I know guitars, I play them, McCartney is not playing a Fender Ventura in that song on lead and he wasn't double tracked, Lennon and George were and

this article I find illustrates a good point, Paul initially had to play bass with the drum track so it would've not been possible for him to play the lick.  Interestingly enough they call it a Strat, it's still a Ventura and I'll show you guys that section of Beatle Gear with him playing it.

Lewisohn 'suggested' after he wrote his book that TTR 'may have' had some layered guitar work in there(per interview) after the several initial tracks were laid down which suggests and in reality that the song took WAY longer than it should have and THEY ALL played on it in several capacities.  Lennon thought the song was one of his best,THE only heavy metal song out at the time behind all the 'crap' that was released in '65 from the rest of the artists out there that year.  He said that in '80 but you probably already know that.

Instrumentation:

  • John Lennon - Lead Vocals, Rhythm Guitar (1964 Rickenbacker 325-12) 1961 Sonic Blue Fender Stratocaster
  • Paul McCartney - Bass Guitar (1963 Hofner 500/1), Lead Guitar (1962 Epiphone Casino ES-230TD), Harmony Vocals
  • George Harrison – Lead and Rhythm Guitar (1963 Rickenbacker 360-12 Fire-Glo)
  • Ringo Starr –  Drums (1964 Ludwig Super Classic Black Oyster Pearl), tambourine, handclaps

I think you need to face the fact that here John gets least love, at least that's my impression. He couldn't workout the idea of adding bells and other sound effects  to song, he couldn't sing ahhs part in ADTL, that he was crappy guitar player etc... for that matter, I think I haven't seen a Lennon fan here.

Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see.
28 February 2013
12.56am
Ron Nasty
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Long John Silver said

I think you need to face the fact that here John gets least love, at least that's my impression. He couldn't workout the idea of adding bells and other sound effects  to song, he couldn't sing ahhs part in ADTL, that he was crappy guitar player etc... for that matter, I think I haven't seen a Lennon fan here.

Hate to disagree but I'm a John fan, and I'll John when I think John, and often do. For me, it's John, Paul, George and Ringo. They got that bit dead right. I just haven't seen anything that convinces me that all those years of them saying "Oh, Paul played lead on this one" meant "Oh, Paul played some of the lead on this one".

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
28 February 2013
11.31am
meanmistermustard
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John's rhythm guitar playing is fantastic (listen to And I Love Her or All My Loving) and his lead on You Cant Do That is brilliant for the song.

This beatle bashing as musicians irritates me tremendously, George was no Eric, Jimmi, whatever, sorry, Ringo wouldnt sit on the same podium as Keith Moone, Paul couldnt play the trumpet as well as my two year old, i dont give a shit. Its about what the musician brings to the performance not whether or not they can play better than x, y or z. Keith Moone was a brilliant drummer but would have been shit for the Beatles, same for Mr Watt in the Stones.

Don’t make your love suffer insecurities, trade the baggage of self to set another one free. ('Paper Skin' - Kendall Payne)
28 February 2013
8.43pm
Beatlebob63
St Peters Church
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Ok, Ok, Mean Mr. Mustard is right...no more bashing...we weren't,,this is great...I'll see you guys on another thread I hope...this one is exhausted I think.  lol...

28 February 2013
9.19pm
Long John Silver
Hollywood Bowl
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http://www.guitarnews.it/blog/.....h-version/

 

About John's stratocaster. if anyone is interested.

Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see.
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