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Fourth guitar on "Ticket To Ride"...
20 February 2013
6.46pm
RunForYourLife
Ed Sullivan Show
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Casually listening, one can discern three guitars being played:

- George playing the riff

- John playing a droning, one-note rhythm

- Paul doing the fills

 

However, listening to the isolated tracks, one can hear a "hidden" fourth guitar, playing chords...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?N.....wAVp3gRrew

It's practically inaudible in the final product. I just thought it was interesting.

20 February 2013
8.36pm
Father McCartney
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Doesn't Paul play the main riff?

He's usually credited with playing lead guitar on 'Ticket To Ride' and 'Another Girl' on the Help! album.

20 February 2013
9.42pm
Ron Nasty
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There are more than three guitars on it.

Mark Lewisohn offers this breakdown of the four-track in The Complete Recording Sessions:

     track one: drums and bass guitar

     track two: rhythm and lead guitar

     track three: John's lead vocal

     track four: tambourine, guitars and backing vocals

And, yes, Paul does play lead guitar on the song.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
20 February 2013
10.03pm
vonbontee
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Yeah, Paul plays the solo during the fade, and the lead bits that come after "...ought to do right by meeeee!" Lots of bendy notes. (As in "Another Girl".)

That's what I believe was meant by "lead guitar" in that context. I don't personally think it meant the main ringing guitar part that "Ticket To Ride" is built on. But who knows, I'm not positive.

I just want to play. I’d like to think I could work opposite Sinatra, B.B. King, the Beatles, or a polka band... - Jazz musician Rahsaan Roland Kirk, 1967
20 February 2013
11.03pm
Ron Nasty
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Lewisohn's description of Paul's contribution is, "Paul played both bass guitar and lead guitar on the song, including the characteristic opening sequence."

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
20 February 2013
11.09pm
RunForYourLife
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I believe he's mistaken, as that would require going through the hassle of re-stringing the Rickenbacker. The bendy bits after the bridges and during the fadeout are definitely Macca on the Casino, though.

21 February 2013
12.58pm
Ron Nasty
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RunForYourLife said
I believe he's mistaken, as that would require going through the hassle of re-stringing the Rickenbacker. The bendy bits after the bridges and during the fadeout are definitely Macca on the Casino, though.

I believe there's something you're forgetting, Paul got damn good at playing guitars upside down, so there would have been no need to re-string the Rickenbacker. When he first got his hands on Stu Sutcliffe's bass, Stu wouldn't let him re-string it, because of the expense of bass strings and the probability of a string breaking in the process. He spent months playing an upside-down bass. The vast majority of guitars he picked up were strung for a right-hander, but he could play them. He'd learnt how to do what he wanted upside-down. Every source I have seen has McCartney playing the lead, and George and John on rhythm. Lewisohn, for all the faults on what he left out that was recorded, is usually pretty accurate on who played what when he takes the time to mention it.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
21 February 2013
3.14pm
vonbontee
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I dunno...I still don't think that chiming intro is what is meant by "lead guitar".

Has anyone seen live footage of the song? Who played the intro at Shea Stadium?

I just want to play. I’d like to think I could work opposite Sinatra, B.B. King, the Beatles, or a polka band... - Jazz musician Rahsaan Roland Kirk, 1967
21 February 2013
3.35pm
Ron Nasty
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vonbontee said
Has anyone seen live footage of the song? Who played the intro at Shea Stadium?

Sorry, vonbontee, but I just think that's irrelevant. Paul played bass onstage. There is no instance that I'm aware of of Paul playing anything but bass during The Beatles live years. Him playing lead on TTR live would have been physically impossible, because he had a Hofner Violin Bass in his hands. That says nothing to who played lead in the studio. George played the bit that we all accept was Paul perfectly well live, so why wouldn't he be able to play the bit there's some question mark over?

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
21 February 2013
4.15pm
vonbontee
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Well, I don't think it's entirely irrelevent. If George was perfectly capable of playing that part himself - and we all know he was - it just makes it more peculiar that he wouldn't have played it originally in the studio, when Paul already had bass and lead guitar parts to occupy himself with in that song. Especially when they only had four tracks to work with, I would think they'd want to try and minimize the number of bounce-downs by distributing the instrumental parts more efficiently.

But, whatever. If Lewisohn isn't trustworthy, nobody is; and if he's sure that Paul played that 12-string part that opens the song and continues throughout...I guess I'll have to believe him. So, exactly what did John and George play?

I just want to play. I’d like to think I could work opposite Sinatra, B.B. King, the Beatles, or a polka band... - Jazz musician Rahsaan Roland Kirk, 1967
21 February 2013
4.31pm
Ron Nasty
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There are probably at least five guitar tracks on TTR. John and George are both credited with rhythm. One of those rhythm tracks would be the chord playing underlay that started this thread. As to the "If George was perfectly capable of playing that part himself – and we all know he was – it just makes it more peculiar that he wouldn't have played it originally in the studio," we also know George was perfectly capable of playing Paul's lead at the end live, so why wouldn't he have done that in the studio? - but we know and accept that's Paul, even if George could do it just fine. Once you get into overdubbed studio recordings, there is compromise when you perform live. As soon as you accept that what was done in the studio could not be done live, then you end up at the conclusion that what you see live, especially at that time, was the compromise arrived at to get close to the studio recording. Remember, one of the reasons they gave for quitting live, was the fact that they were doing stuff in the studio that they could no longer find a way to do on stage.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
21 February 2013
4.42pm
vonbontee
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we also know George was perfectly capable of playing Paul's lead at the end live, so why wouldn't he have done that in the studio? – but we know and accept that's Paul

Sure, because it reads "Lead Guitar: Paul" right in the liner notes! And it says the same on "Another Girl", and you can hear the parts in question in both songs and hear how they sound similar.

I just want to play. I’d like to think I could work opposite Sinatra, B.B. King, the Beatles, or a polka band... - Jazz musician Rahsaan Roland Kirk, 1967
21 February 2013
4.47pm
Ron Nasty
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I'm not looking at the liner notes, I'm looking at Lewisohn. There are times when Lewisohn says the liner notes are wrong, and are proved wrong by the tapes, so everything I'm saying is from Lewisohn's hearing of the original tapes.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
21 February 2013
5.09pm
vonbontee
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Are there really examples of incorrect sleeve notes? I can't name even a dozen tracks that provide ANY instrumentation information.

I just want to play. I’d like to think I could work opposite Sinatra, B.B. King, the Beatles, or a polka band... - Jazz musician Rahsaan Roland Kirk, 1967
21 February 2013
6.16pm
Ron Nasty
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I couldn't name them off the top of my head, without re-reading and comparing. But there are definitely a few, and definitely more than  a dozen tracks that provide instrumentation information. Remember Please Please Me through to Revolver all included varying degrees of information.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
21 February 2013
6.53pm
Into the Sky with Diamonds
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Do you think the Beatles (and Brian Epstein and George Martin) would have allowed albums to go out with flatly incorrect liner notes?

But here's another angle:

Most of the riffs are pretty easy to play. Ringo could have played them.

I'm not so curious as to who played what in the studio

What I wonder is, "Who came up with them?" They're all wonderfully creative and effective.

For all the reasons you guys have mentioned, you can't assume that the person who came up with the riff is actually the one playing it.

 

 

 

"Into the Sky with Diamonds" (the Beatles and the Race to the Moon – a history)
21 February 2013
7.10pm
Beatlebob63
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If I could add my 2 Beatle 'sense' to this very interesting topic you lads have opened up; concerning TTR, LENNON is playing the opening chime, riff, whatever you want to call it, hands down, Lennon, his song, his riff, songs is about his Mother Julia by the way. 

He's playing a Fender Ventura, (power blue) given to him by, uh, the Fender guys.  He played it on that track and put it down after that.  Gave it away.  Yes, there are a couple of different guitars on those tracks, McCartney is playing lead in the solo.  You can so tell it's him, George's solo's are like Clapton's, if you're a guitar player you'll understand.  Those guys played more fluidly, hard to explain, more notes and with a 'slow hand' as they say.  McCartney is more in the box type of playing, kind of less sweeping licks like George and less picking up and down the neck getting back to the root chord like George, George was more intricate less predictable.

Just listen to 'McCartney', Maybe I'm Amazed, Every Night, that's all Paul obviously...solos are very 'square', nothing crazy or too inventive but enough to get through the solo, similarly to the way he plays drums, not too high, not too low, fill here or there.  He is/was a very accomplished acoustic guy though, "I've Just Seen A Face" etc.. and that's not so easy to distinguish from him and George. 

Now when you listen to the lead on Another Girl after hearing what I just said, you'll  be able to pick Paul's solo's out of a lineup.  Listen to the end of Another Girl, he barely gets to the end of the song and the final note with Ringo he almost missed it dragging behind, I laugh every time I hear the end, he's slow, he's not a lead guy..but he's Paul, musically inclined with any instrument but Bass is his Vitality.  So when you ask about George, why is he not playing any of these 2 solo's or any other one's he's not playing, it's because Paul (or John) chose to.  Why do you think George was so pissed all the time?  Bad enough he was relegated to one track per side, now you're taking some of the solo work away from him, on songs he could do in his sleep?   That's what I think and know.....Beatle Gear by Andy Babiuk, read that one....every instrument, every solo...Lewissohn's good, this is the best book, that and Here There And Everywhere by Geoff Emerick.

Ask Me Why?  I Want to Tell You

21 February 2013
7.21pm
Ron Nasty
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Two questions Beatlebob63. You say Lewisohn's is the best book. He states that Paul played lead on "the characteristic opening sequence". What do you think he is referring to there? Also, what is your source for TTR being about Julia? I have never come across this idea before. Heard various tales of TTR inspiration, but never that one.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
21 February 2013
7.29pm
meanmistermustard
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I have not much to say about anything at the moment however there are errors in Lewisohns books, he himself has admitted it. Thats not to say they are not essential and some of the best books out there on the Beatles (if you dont own them get them), just that they should not be accepted 100% without question, more 99%.

Beatlebob63 said
If I could add my 2 Beatle 'sense' to this very interesting topic you lads have opened up; concerning TTR, LENNON is playing the opening chime, riff, whatever you want to call it, hands down, Lennon, his song, his riff, songs is about his Mother Julia by the way.

Ive heard that before but havent seen any decent evidence to support it and it seems more far-fetched to me than the others (was it not tied to her being knocked down and killed by a police car, i forget exactly the link). There are a number of theories about what inspired the song, what it is about, but nothing is definately the answer as far as im aware. At least no-one has tried to add it to the Paul is Dead conspiracy clues.

 

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21 February 2013
8.24pm
Inner Light
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Beatlebob63 said
If I could add my 2 Beatle 'sense' to this very interesting topic you lads have opened up; concerning TTR, LENNON is playing the opening chime, riff, whatever you want to call it, hands down, Lennon, his song, his riff, songs is about his Mother Julia by the way. 

He's playing a Fender Ventura, (power blue) given to him by, uh, the Fender guys.  He played it on that track and put it down after that.  Gave it away.  Yes, there are a couple of different guitars on those tracks, McCartney is playing lead in the solo.  You can so tell it's him, George's solo's are like Clapton's, if you're a guitar player you'll understand.  Those guys played more fluidly, hard to explain, more notes and with a 'slow hand' as they say.  McCartney is more in the box type of playing, kind of less sweeping licks like George and less picking up and down the neck getting back to the root chord like George, George was more intricate less predictable.

Just listen to 'McCartney', Maybe I'm Amazed, Every Night, that's all Paul obviously...solos are very 'square', nothing crazy or too inventive but enough to get through the solo, similarly to the way he plays drums, not too high, not too low, fill here or there.  He is/was a very accomplished acoustic guy though, "I've Just Seen A Face" etc.. and that's not so easy to distinguish from him and George. 

Now when you listen to the lead on Another Girl after hearing what I just said, you'll  be able to pick Paul's solo's out of a lineup.  Listen to the end of Another Girl, he barely gets to the end of the song and the final note with Ringo he almost missed it dragging behind, I laugh every time I hear the end, he's slow, he's not a lead guy..but he's Paul, musically inclined with any instrument but Bass is his Vitality.  So when you ask about George, why is he not playing any of these 2 solo's or any other one's he's not playing, it's because Paul (or John) chose to.  Why do you think George was so pissed all the time?  Bad enough he was relegated to one track per side, now you're taking some of the solo work away from him, on songs he could do in his sleep?   That's what I think and know.....Beatle Gear by Andy Babiuk, read that one....every instrument, every solo...Lewissohn's good, this is the best book, that and Here There And Everywhere by Geoff Emerick.

Ask Me Why?  I Want to Tell You

 

Very well put especially that he could do the solos in his sleep. For some reason I still feel a lot of fans are trying to compare McCartney's guitar ability with George's and there is no comparison. George was a far better guitarist and you are right, McCartney is not a lead guy. He is an excellent acoustic player but not lead. This is why he brings in good guitar players like Anderson to take over that spot in his songs.

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