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Beatles songs lacking a bass track
1 July 2013
6.13pm
Linde
The Netherlands
Apple rooftop
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I never even heard the longer version of Can you take me back, it's kind of hypnotizing. 

I think the reason why I see it as one song, is because Can you take me back isn't listed seperately on the tracklist. Her Majesty isn't either, but because of the gap it just feels like a different song. I don't know, I just see Her Majesty as a hidden song and Can You Take Me Back as a funny bit between songs for some reason. It's like the Inner Groove, I don't consider that as a seperate song. I just think of it as a part of A Day In The Life, or as a funny bit. It's a bit hard to explain.

1 July 2013
11.34pm
Ron Nasty
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The Beatles bassist said
So you indicate that "Her Majesty" was on the same track as "The End" on the original vinyl?

In the age of vinyl, tracks were separated by a silence known as a rill. The rill was cut into the master disc in a slightly different way to make it visible, marking it out as the gap between one track and the next, and allowing the listener to navigate the disc.

At the time of Sgt. Pepper The Beatles started issuing instructions that there were to "no rills" between certain tracks. With Abbey Road there were no rills in the medley. If you wanted to find a particular section, you had to guess where to drop the needle. As a result, Her Majesty, did not have a "proper" rill on the original vinyl, though the seventeen-second silence almost creates an artificial one.

I don't know how well this will illustrate my point, but here is Side 1 of AR on vinyl:

http://i2.wp.com/www.geeky-gadgets.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/abbey-road-vinyl.jpg?w=200

There you can clearly see the division between each track, that division is the rill.

Here is the second side of AR, in which you can clearly see there are far fewer obvious rills (though it is not lighted nearly as well as the side one I found):

http://i1.wp.com/recordmecca.com/rmsite/wp-content/uploads/mqc/325_large_3.jpg?w=200

While you may be able to see the hint of a rill towards the end of the side, it is an artificial one created by seventeen-second silence meaning it was cut into the master as part of the medley. Those rills that are so obvious on side one and not quite so obvious on side two last 3-4 seconds. That bit that hints at a rill before Here Majesty is seventeen, were it cut as a rill it would not be a hint.

As to Sgt. Pepper's Inner Groove, do not think for a moment that I was suggesting it as a song. It clearly isn't. I was merely using it as an example as how they hid things on their albums that were not considered by them to be a part of a song, but were just to surprise the listener with something unexpected.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
2 July 2013
1.43am
The Beatles bassist
Norway
Abbey Road
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mja6758 said

The Beatles bassist said
So you indicate that "Her Majesty" was on the same track as "The End" on the original vinyl?

In the age of vinyl, tracks were separated by a silence known as a rill. The rill was cut into the master disc in a slightly different way to make it visible, marking it out as the gap between one track and the next, and allowing the listener to navigate the disc.

At the time of Sgt. Pepper The Beatles started issuing instructions that there were to "no rills" between certain tracks. With Abbey Road there were no rills in the medley. If you wanted to find a particular section, you had to guess where to drop the needle. As a result, Her Majesty, did not have a "proper" rill on the original vinyl, though the seventeen-second silence almost creates an artificial one.

I don't know how well this will illustrate my point, but here is Side 1 of AR on vinyl:

http://i2.wp.com/www.geeky-gadgets.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/abbey-road-vinyl.jpg?w=200

There you can clearly see the division between each track, that division is the rill.

Here is the second side of AR, in which you can clearly see there are far fewer obvious rills (though it is not lighted nearly as well as the side one I found):

http://i1.wp.com/recordmecca.com/rmsite/wp-content/uploads/mqc/325_large_3.jpg?w=200

While you may be able to see the hint of a rill towards the end of the side, it is an artificial one created by seventeen-second silence meaning it was cut into the master as part of the medley. Those rills that are so obvious on side one and not quite so obvious on side two last 3-4 seconds. That bit that hints at a rill before Here Majesty is seventeen, were it cut as a rill it would not be a hint.

As to Sgt. Pepper's Inner Groove, do not think for a moment that I was suggesting it as a song. It clearly isn't. I was merely using it as an example as how they hid things on their albums that were not considered by them to be a part of a song, but were just to surprise the listener with something unexpected.

Hmm... that's interesting. Thank you, I've learned something new today!

"Real music is made by real people playing real instruments using own creativity and skills."
2 July 2013
2.05am
Ron Nasty
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I just hope I didn't make it too confusing, Beatles bassist, and that the illustrations helped a little (though I wish I could have found a side 2 as well lit as the side 1 I found!). To me, at my age, and growing up in the vinyl age, it's something you don't think about how to explain because it just is. Every album - virtually - has them and you know what they are (they're also referred to as "banding" and "song separation", but I tend to use the more technical "rill"). I struggled with the explanation, but I hope it made some sort of sense! I just know that when I read it I think, blue-meanie, I could have done that so much better!

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
2 July 2013
4.41am
Funny Paper
America
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I also grew up with vinyl.  But a question just occurred to me.  Didn't the grooves slow down the needle?  So wouldn't a needle that moves from the end of one song and onto the next, just slide quickly over the rill, since that rill is pure smoothness?  Yet on my vinyl records, it sometimes take a few seconds for the needle to move from song to song...

 

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...
2 July 2013
5.02am
Ron Nasty
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The simple answer is no. The speed of the turntable was dictated by the belt, later cogs, beneath it. The friction on the needle gliding through the groove would never be enough to counteract the belt driving the turntable. As I said, the rill is usually cut to a length of 3-4 seconds. Sometimes it would be a little shorter, sometimes a little longer. The rill is simply not cut with as tight a spacing of the groove as the song.

song
still song
still song

rill

beginning of new song
still new song
still new song

In this way the rill stands out.

Aaaargh!!! I'm really not that technically minded! So, if anyone thinks I'm getting this stuff wrong, feel free to jump in and correct my stumbling attempts at explanation.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
2 July 2013
5.17am
LongHairedLady
coming in through the bathroom window
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Vinyl was such a different experience.  I kind of grew up in that changing period (the 80's) so the first music I listened to was on vinyl.  My favourite record was "Rock This Town" by the Stray Cats!  I was still too young to read but I just knew what the record looked like.  One of the first lessons my dad taught me was how to hold a record (that and how to twirl a drumstick).  a-hard-days-night-paul-10 

From then it was tapes, then later CD's.  

When I buy Beatles stuff (I have all the albums on my iTunes, but not in physical form) I always buy vinyl.  I have Sgt. Pepper and Revolver on CD, but that's it.  In vinyl so far I have Sgt. Pepper, Beatles for Sale, Rubber Soul, The White Album (old copy of my mom's), Let it Be...  Naked, and the White and Red albums.... also a "rarities" album.  I like buying them like that because that's how they were released when they came out the first time.  It's such a different experience to put a record on and just listen to the whole thing.  a-hard-days-night-john-1

Edit:  I'm sorry, I should stay-on-topic 

"Please don't bring your banjo back, I know where it's been..  I wasn't hardly gone a day, when it became the scene..  Banjos!  Banjos!  All the time, I can't forget that tune..  and if I ever see another banjo, I'm going out and buy a big balloon!"

 

2 July 2013
6.34pm
Funny Paper
America
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I used to have fun playing ordinary LPs at the higher speed of 45 (and vice versa), and also I had a setting that would slow down the ordinary LPs down to 16.

 

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...
2 July 2013
6.46pm
Funny Paper
America
Apple rooftop
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mja6758 said
The simple answer is no. The speed of the turntable was dictated by the belt, later cogs, beneath it. The friction on the needle gliding through the groove would never be enough to counteract the belt driving the turntable. As I said, the rill is usually cut to a length of 3-4 seconds. Sometimes it would be a little shorter, sometimes a little longer. The rill is simply not cut with as tight a spacing of the groove as the song.

song
still song
still song

rill

beginning of new song
still new song
still new song

In this way the rill stands out.

Aaaargh!!! I'm really not that technically minded! So, if anyone thinks I'm getting this stuff wrong, feel free to jump in and correct my stumbling attempts at explanation.

I guess my main question was, if the rill is a smooth section, how does the needle take even 3 to 4 seconds?  Wouldn't the needle just slide over practically instantaneously?

 

 

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...
2 July 2013
7.31pm
Ron Nasty
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The speed that the needle travels along the groove is dictated by the turntable. The rill is still a part of that continuous groove, just a part that has no sound information cut into its sides for the needle to translate. The time it takes from point A to point B in the groove is constant - the speed of the turntable and the distance between points A & B. It makes no difference if the channel has sound information in it or not, just the length of the channel.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
2 July 2013
7.53pm
Funny Paper
America
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mja6758 said
The speed that the needle travels along the groove is dictated by the turntable. The rill is still a part of that continuous groove, just a part that has no sound information cut into its sides for the needle to translate. The time it takes from point A to point B in the groove is constant - the speed of the turntable and the distance between points A & B. It makes no difference if the channel has sound information in it or not, just the length of the channel.

Forgive me if I continue to be dense about this-- but my understanding is that the parts that have musical information have circular "ridges" elevated so to speak, then circular "valleys" down to record level -- and any two ridges separated by a valley constitutes a "groove".  So if there are continuous grooves as the needle is traveling along while the record is spinning, that would sort of "ground" the needle and keep it from just sliding across the surface.

However, if the rill is just flat and smooth without any texture, why doesn't the needle just slide across?

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...
2 July 2013
8.32pm
Ron Nasty
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A vinyl disc has one spiral groove cut into it which runs from the outer edge of the disc to the centre. This groove creates a valley-like track which guides the needle's path from the outer edge of the disc to the middle. The bumps and dips which are translated into sound are cut into the sides/walls of this valley-like track. When a period of silence is needed, the sides of this valley-like track are left smooth but the depth of it remains constant, and its sides keep the needle from simply across the surface.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
12 July 2013
9.18pm
WhereArtEsteban
Nashville Tennessee
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I had never heard the long "Dig It!" or the long "Can You Take Me Back?"- a-hard-days-night-ringo-6 love

It sounds like John is using the six string bass in such a fashion on "Dig It!" that he is basically still playing a rhythm guitar, probably so he could sing while playing it. If you play rhythm guitar you know the transition from singing/playing at the same time from guitar to bass is pretty weird. Bass requires you to be more precise (and its much easier to detect a sloppy bassist than a sloppy guitarist) and locked in with the drummer and guitarists tend to be more jittery and loose (like John!). So he's totally playing a bass line it just depends on your definition of "line" really? He's likely playing chords.

They should have used the whole "Can You Take Me Back?" I cant stop listening to it!

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12 July 2013
11.27pm
meanmistermustard
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Can You Take Me Back isn't complete, its missing about 20 seconds.

Don't think I could put up with the full version on the White Album, after a few listens i'd be fed up with it, same goes with Dig It. The greatness I find in these two excerpts is their briefness, I want to hear more, however when I do by the end im more than satisfied. Its like Los Paranois, it lasts 3 minutes and however many seconds! Im not a fan of the Anthology edits but thank goodness they cut that down to a more bearable length. Dig it on Let It Be I love. The Dig it cut at 4 mins is listenable, 5 mins is getting annoying and 8 minutes im fed up after 3. Never gotten around to braving the full 13.

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14 July 2013
1.08am
Von Bontee
A Hole In The Road
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Funny Paper, the rill isn't totally smooth: there's still a "plain" groove (without any information) spiralling through it, connecting one song to the next one. And the first second or two of the next song, which is also silent, is also bordered by a plain groove, but so close that you can't tell where the silence ends and the next song begins. On vinyl records that have continuous sound (ie. no silence) between songs (like say between "Venus And Mars" and "Rockshow" on that one Paul McCartney album, you can still see the rills, with the regular groove connecting one to the next, but the groove will be a regular "wiggly" one with sound information in it. (Which will look like a regular plain groove to the naked eye, unless you have a magnifying glass or something.)

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