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What makes a great Beatles song
6 November 2011
1.41am
Anderson
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kedame

 

But of course, I didn't "dismiss" all of the songs from Paul and George, nor did I say that they all "suck".  I merely said that none of them are in the "first-rank".  My position is not that Paul and George didn't write "good songs"; in fact, I quite clearly state that some of Paul's are very close to being in the "first-rank".  This thread is about what makes for a truly great Beatles song. 

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen.
6 November 2011
2.12am
kedame
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I'd say Penny Lane, Hey Jude, Yesterday, Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, Let it Be, Get Back, Got To Get You Into My Life, Can't Buy Me Love, Eleanor Rigby, Here, There, and Everywhere, For No One, Blackbird, Paperback Writer, Helter Skelter, I Will, I Want To Hold Your Hand, She Loves You (both of which are JP collaborations), I'm Down, All My Loving, And I Love Her, Lady Madonna, Something, Here Comes The Sun, While My Guitar Gently Weeps, the whole Abbey Road side two, and all of the songs John and Paul collaborated on are first-rate Beatles songs. Believe what you want, I guess, but it seems stupid to me to declare every song Paul and George wrote were not first rate songs. Many of the songs Paul wrote are the songs people identify the Beatles with. Hardly anyone's first thought when they think of the Beatles is of I Am The Walrus or Cry Baby Cry (maybe Come Together or In My Life). More often than not, it's one of the songs I mentioned above. Say what you want about "substance" being more important than popularity, but popularity is important. It means people from all walks of life feel connected to that song. Isn't that what makes good music? Can't you just imagine the powerful feeling of 50,000 people singing Hey Jude together? It's amazing, and Paul did that. That's first rate.

I've said it before, but I'll say it again. I think John had a unique ability to make songs that touch people on a broad level…a sort of universal oneness. But Paul has the ability to touch people on a personal level, and that is just as important, especially if it reaches so many millions of people. You can't deny the power his songs have over people. It's just silly to try.

"You can manicure a cat but can you caticure a man?" John Lennon- Skywriting by Word of Mouth
6 November 2011
2.17am
mr. Sun king coming together
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Kedame – I love your point about Hey Jude. There is nothing like having Paul McCartney lead 20000 people in the coda. I sometimes day the coda would work shorter on the record, but live, well – nothing tops that.

I tried to think of something powerful and moving… and failed.  "You were given a choice between war and dishonor - you chose dishonor, and you shall have war" - Winston Churchill
6 November 2011
2.21am
mithveaen
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Ok I don't want to join the discussion. If someone can't see the brilliance of Paul and George's work by itself, I don't think anybody can do it for them. I'm not saying this is bad, I'm just saying there are some Lennonistas and some MacCartneistas very fierce. My boss is a Lennonista, so I know what you mean Anderson.

 

And by Lennonista I'm not saying anything wrong. That's all. Just keep it civil guys.

And I have to say it : Paulsbass and SunKing agreeing in something? (I mean, something, not Something). a-hard-days-night-ringo-6

Here comes the sun….. Scoobie-doobie…… Something in the way she moves…..attracts me like a cauliflower… Bop. Bop, cat bop. Go, Johnny, Go. Beware of Darkness…  I believe in SH...
6 November 2011
2.23am
kedame
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Thanks, SunKing. It's on all the concert cds, and it's just so powerful to hear. I was listening to it on my laptop one time, and my sister commented on how amazing it sounded with everyone singing together. It's almost enough to bring a person to tears. I love that fucking coda. It can get a little long on the official recording, but it sounds so perfect live. I feel the same about Mull of Kintyre live, when the bagpipes come in, and you can hear everyone cheering and singing along. Just beautiful.

"You can manicure a cat but can you caticure a man?" John Lennon- Skywriting by Word of Mouth
6 November 2011
2.24am
mithveaen
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And if I make a mistake in grammar or spelling in my post, sorry. I'm worn out.

Here comes the sun….. Scoobie-doobie…… Something in the way she moves…..attracts me like a cauliflower… Bop. Bop, cat bop. Go, Johnny, Go. Beware of Darkness…  I believe in SH...
6 November 2011
2.27am
mr. Sun king coming together
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Paulsbass isn't a stupid guy. He knows his stuff well. I might not always agree with him, but it's never because of something really stupid he says (because he doesn't say stupid things). You know what (and I would like to think he agrees with me), I would agree with him if he's right about something in a heartbeat. And typically when he calls me out, it's my fault. I don't think there's any bad blood, right?

I tried to think of something powerful and moving… and failed.  "You were given a choice between war and dishonor - you chose dishonor, and you shall have war" - Winston Churchill
6 November 2011
2.30am
Anderson
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kedame

 

Of course, I'm not trying to "deny the power [Paul's] songs have over people".  I'm denying that this is a sensible barometer for measuring a work of art. 

 Consider the following thought experiment: imagine that the Beatles had played all of those years in Aunt Mimi's garage.  They wrote all of the same songs, and made all of the same recordings, but no one ever heard them except for the Beatles themselves.  Would it follow that none of the Beatles songs were "first-rate"?  After all, they would have touched the lives of no one.  No one would have sang along with Hey Jude.  No one would have felt "connected" to them.  Does this mean that they have no artistic value? 

You declare that what makes for good music is to make "people from all walks of life feel connected to that song".  Again, it would follow from this that if the Beatles had played their whole career in a garage, that their music would not have been good.  Are you prepared to stand by this conclusion?  If not, then you will need to change your argument a bit.

What makes for "good music"?  I offer you a more plausible standard: "good music" comes about when a talented, creative, and interesting artist achieves an excellent work of self-expression.  Now, doesn't that seem more sensible? 

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen.
6 November 2011
2.31am
kedame
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mithveaen said:

And if I make a mistake in grammar or spelling in my post, sorry. I'm worn out.

Don't worry about it, mith. Your spelling and grammar are just fine. I respect what you said about keeping it civil. There really is no point to this discussion, is there? It's clear Anderson will never change his mind about George and Paul. I'm just glad I can enjoy the entire catalog and not just say it's only a first-rate song if my personal favorite wrote it. I love John's bass on Helter Skelter. I love his writing and singing in songs like Come Together, I Am The Walrus, If I Fell, In My Life, etc. I love George's writing. I love his singing. I love his guitar and his sitar and everything in between. I love Ringo's drumming and his fun, unique voice. I love everything about Paul…even his so-called "granny" music. I love the whole fucking band, and it just gets my goat when a Beatles fan can dismiss the others so much as to say they haven't written any first-rate songs. It's just bullshit.

"You can manicure a cat but can you caticure a man?" John Lennon- Skywriting by Word of Mouth
6 November 2011
2.38am
kedame
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Anderson said:

kedame

What makes for "good music"?  I offer you a more plausible standard: "good music" comes about when a talented, creative, and interesting artist achieves an excellent work of self-expression.  Now, doesn't that seem more sensible? 

And Paul and George aren't and didn't do those things? I get it. They aren't serious or brooding enough for you…not tortured enough. Whatever. I'll never change your mind. People's reactions to art matter. They weren't just a garage band. There is no objective reason for your assertion that George and Paul's songs aren't great…only subjective, biased ones. This is going nowhere.

And I'm with paulsbass on this one…anyone who denies the beauty of that bassline in Come Together should not be taken seriously. It is rightly regarded as one of the best Beatles bass lines, in a whole catalog full of brilliant bass lines. It's one of the least lazy sounding bass lines I've ever heard, and just because you say it's lazy doesn't mean it's true.

"You can manicure a cat but can you caticure a man?" John Lennon- Skywriting by Word of Mouth
6 November 2011
2.42am
meanmistermustard
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Anderson said

…To defend my view, it's necessary for me to hold that McCartney and Harrison didn't write great songs.  McCartney and Harrison were good at writing hits, but this is not the same thing as writing great songs. …

As ni-on everyone including myself has said you cannot possibly conclude that Paul and George did not write great songs. Outside the beatles Bob Dylan wrote with George, something he wouldnt do if George couldnt and hadnt wrote some fantastic songs. Forget the Beatles when George was inspired and had to write good enough material to get a song onto an album, listen to albums like Cloud Nine or Brainwashed or Living In The Material World and tell me there are not great songs in there. And Paul would not be able to last 4 decades if he couldnt write great music (listen to albums like Flowers In The Dirt, Flaming Pie; songs like Here Today, Waterfalls, Letting Go, No More Lonely Nights). Eventually he would have been found out.

 

But that probably doesnt matter because it wasnt within the beatle years.

 

John very openly stated that Here, there and everywhere was one of his favourite beatles songs ever. And he would be one of the first to defend Paul and George's writing skills.

"Well, probably we'll sell less records, less people'll go to see the film, we'll write less songs, and we'll all die of failure" (John Lennon 8/64)
6 November 2011
3.06am
GniknuS
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Ok, it doesn't need to be everyone versus Anderson, I don't think that was his intention. For example, Come Together certainly is a cool bass line, but outside of the riff it really isn't spectacular. It just isn't, he plays a single note during the guitar solo, one note over and over, that's it. Yes, that is lazy playing, it works, but technically it is lazy, but that doesn't take away from the cool riff. With a Little Help from My Friends is an example of an amazingly complex line with all of these different and unique sections, innovative little riffs, but no one really talks about it because it's not quite as cool as something like Come Together.

Let's try to keep some things in perspective, I don't believe he's trashing Paul or George by sharing his opinion. 

I sat on a rug, biding my time, drinking her wine
6 November 2011
3.16am
kedame
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If everyone disagrees with Anderson, then it should be everyone versus Anderson. No one has to be the voice of reason if they don't want to. I happen to think his opinion sucks, so I'm going to share that. Apparently, so does the majority of this board. He opened himself up to criticism by making a spectacularly broad claim that he should admittedly know would be controversial. If people don't agree with it, it is our prerogative to say so.

Implying that Paul and George aren't great or real artists, as he did in his last post, is as good as bashing, unless I am wrong that that was what he was implying. If I was, I'm sorry. But I won't apologize for arguing against him. That's what a thread like this is for.

"You can manicure a cat but can you caticure a man?" John Lennon- Skywriting by Word of Mouth
6 November 2011
3.22am
mithveaen
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Well the thing is Anderson that "great" is an adjective that describes opinion, that's why you have to say "I like that great blue car" instead of "blue great car", because the adjectives that refer to something in general are said before the ones that are more specific*

 

We might use some criteria to evaluate good music but some of it might be valid for you. You say it's not valid to say a song is good because it connects to people, that a good song should be good if it's sung in a closed room or in a large audience. Well, I don't think Paul wrote Hey Jude planning "One day, in a large stadium, I'll have tons of people singing these na-na-na again and again. And I'll make a goofy routine with them.. and then…."

 

The song Hey Jude gave me the chills yesterday when I was in my room, and when I saw Paul live last year. And just to say a point, didn't John say that Strawberry Fields Forever was not as good as he wanted? Even John disagreea with me when we say what makes a great Beatle song.

 

What I try to say, Anderson, I'm not against your point of view. It's just that trying to define the word "great" is really hard.

 

Now, I can agree with you in something : I can't hate any John song in the Beatles catalog, while I can't find love for Ob-la-di Ob-la-da. But I blame that to Paul's ego that didn't make him see that song was truly bad (although my niece loved it when she was a kid) more than his "regular" songwriting skills. It's just a song that he shouldn't have never recorded. (And I'm sure someone says that's the best Beatle song ever) How many songs like that John had? (We might find some in his solo work)

 

And I said I was not going to join the discussion. Damn it.. a-hard-days-night-george-4  Ah well Peace and Love! apple01apple01heartheart

 

*And yes, I'm talking about the order of adjectives in English.

Here comes the sun….. Scoobie-doobie…… Something in the way she moves…..attracts me like a cauliflower… Bop. Bop, cat bop. Go, Johnny, Go. Beware of Darkness…  I believe in SH...
6 November 2011
3.47am
Anderson
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kedame said:

If everyone disagrees with Anderson, then it should be everyone versus Anderson. No one has to be the voice of reason if they don't want to. I happen to think his opinion sucks, so I'm going to share that. Apparently, so does the majority of this board. He opened himself up to criticism by making a spectacularly broad claim that he should admittedly know would be controversial. If people don't agree with it, it is our prerogative to say so.

Implying that Paul and George aren't great or real artists, as he did in his last post, is as good as bashing, unless I am wrong that that was what he was implying. If I was, I'm sorry. But I won't apologize for arguing against him. That's what a thread like this is for.

I encourage you to argue with my position, and it is what I made this thread for.  But if you are going to argue, then you should do so in a good faith manner.  That is: by paying attention to what I'm typing and making a good faith effort to understand my positions.  Almost every single post you've made in this thread has falsely attributed to me some opinion which I did not state.  When I correct you, you do not acknowledge your misrepresentation.  I agree that you shouldn't apologize for stating your opinions, but you should apologize for belligerently replying to my posts without taking the time to read them properly.  

In your last post, you have again misrepresented me.  At no point did I state that Paul and George are not "real artists".  I said that they aren't very good at creating a nuanced and unbanal tonal framework in their song compositions.  Nor did I complain that they aren't "serious or brooding enough".  In fact, I said the exact opposite, repeatedly praising Paul for his "moody" and "bi-polar" bass playing.  I don't mind having a conversation with you, love.  But please try to be a bit less lazy in your reading of my posts if you're going to throw around accusations about what I'm saying. 

Finally, a separate question is whether Paul and George are "great artists".  I don't see how anyone could come away from reading any of my posts and think that I'm denying that Paul is a "great artist".  I've praised him through the sky again and again for his bass playing.  It's just that I don't think that his particular greatness, genius, and excellence as an artist comes so much from his songwriting (though he had some very good songs).  His excellence and genius as an artist comes from his bass playing.  However, I'm afraid to say that I don't think George was a "great artist".  That's just too strong a term.  George was certainly a good artist.  He was creative, but not in the sense that really qualifies as "greatness". 

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen.
6 November 2011
3.56am
Anderson
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GniknuS said:

 With a Little Help from My Friends is an example of an amazingly complex line with all of these different and unique sections, innovative little riffs, but no one really talks about it because it's not quite as cool as something like Come Together.

 

Hey, you're right about Paul's bass in "With a Little Help from My Friends".  I hadn't listened to that one in ten years at least.  Classic "restless" McCartney style. 

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen.
6 November 2011
4.20am
kedame
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Anderson said:

kedame said:

If everyone disagrees with Anderson, then it should be everyone versus Anderson. No one has to be the voice of reason if they don't want to. I happen to think his opinion sucks, so I'm going to share that. Apparently, so does the majority of this board. He opened himself up to criticism by making a spectacularly broad claim that he should admittedly know would be controversial. If people don't agree with it, it is our prerogative to say so.

Implying that Paul and George aren't great or real artists, as he did in his last post, is as good as bashing, unless I am wrong that that was what he was implying. If I was, I'm sorry. But I won't apologize for arguing against him. That's what a thread like this is for.

I encourage you to argue with my position, and it is what I made this thread for.  But if you are going to argue, then you should do so in a good faith manner.  That is: by paying attention to what I'm typing and making a good faith effort to understand my positions.  Almost every single post you've made in this thread has falsely attributed to me some opinion which I did not state.  When I correct you, you do not acknowledge your misrepresentation.  I agree that you shouldn't apologize for stating your opinions, but you should apologize for belligerently replying to my posts without taking the time to read them properly.  

In your last post, you have again misrepresented me.  At no point did I state that Paul and George are not "real artists".  I said that they aren't very good at creating a nuanced and unbanal tonal framework in their song compositions.  Nor did I complain that they aren't "serious or brooding enough".  In fact, I said the exact opposite, repeatedly praising Paul for his "moody" and "bi-polar" bass playing.  I don't mind having a conversation with you, love.  But please try to be a bit less lazy in your reading of my posts if you're going to throw around accusations about what I'm saying. 

Finally, a separate question is whether Paul and George are "great artists".  I don't see how anyone could come away from reading any of my posts and think that I'm denying that Paul is a "great artist".  I've praised him through the sky again and again for his bass playing.  It's just that I don't think that his particular greatness, genius, and excellence as an artist comes so much from his songwriting (though he had some very good songs).  His excellence and genius as an artist comes from his bass playing.  However, I'm afraid to say that I don't think George was a "great artist".  That's just too strong a term.  George was certainly a good artist.  He was creative, but not in the sense that really qualifies as "greatness". 

First of all, please don't call me "love." Secondly, what the hell does "a nuanced and unbanal tonal framework" really even mean? I'm sorry if I'm not musically intelligent enough to know, but it sounds like made up crap to me. Thirdly, I don't really know what makes the perfect Beatles song. I know what I like to listen to. It's the whole damn catalog. I think they all wrote great songs (with the exception of Ringo, whose songs have a certain charm, but are hardly brilliant). I can't explain it in terms of musicality because I know next to nothing about the technicalities of music, as I have stated often in my posts on this board. I do know what makes me feel good though, when listening to music. And it isn't just brilliant John's brilliant songs, though I do love brilliant John's brilliant songs. Fourthly, you hardly addressed anything in my posts or other people's posts, either. There is nothing objective in your posts that make sense as to why you would maintain the assertion that the only first-rate songs are John's songs. It makes no sense, and plenty of people in the music world would disagree with you. 

I read your posts in their entirety. I didn't lazily skim them. I just happen to disagree with you. It's fine that you don't like Paul's songwriting, or George's songwriting, but that doesn't mean they aren't great songs. I just can't see where a song like Blackbird could be considered inferior to, say, Dear Prudence, or even I'm So Tired. It isn't a raw song, but it has a serious message without being overbearing, a beautiful melody, and Paul's wonderful singing. Tell me why Penny Lane isn't a great song? What about it indicates that it does not have "a nuanced and unbanal tonal framework?" (Again, what the hell does that mean? Seriously, I would like to know.) What is it about Let it Be or We Can Work It Out that is inherently wrong? Why isn't The Fool On The Hill a great song, when it's as whimsical as I Am The Walrus and as poetic as anything in the Beatles catalog? Why is Here Comes The Sun merely a good song? You haven't elaborated on any of these questions in a serious manner.

"You can manicure a cat but can you caticure a man?" John Lennon- Skywriting by Word of Mouth
6 November 2011
4.30am
mithveaen
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Guys, if we continue using subjective terms as the word "great" we will go nowhere. As simple as that. a-hard-days-night-ringo-15

 

Hence my theory that says "There will always be someone who thinks Citizen Kane is a piece of junk". What is great for us, for Anderson is just ok. a-hard-days-night-george-4

 

(BTW Something is a great fucking song. If you can't see it, honestly….)

Here comes the sun….. Scoobie-doobie…… Something in the way she moves…..attracts me like a cauliflower… Bop. Bop, cat bop. Go, Johnny, Go. Beware of Darkness…  I believe in SH...
6 November 2011
4.45am
GniknuS
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I don't understand why there are always these massive problems on the site whenever someone says something even slightly negative about Paul. Like on the Dear Prudence page, when people question whether or not Paul could have played those fills at the end, McCartney fans freak out and refer to other examples of Paul's playing that don't even come close to what he did on Dear Prudence. Yes, for god sake, I've heard Mrs. Vandebilt…

Or another example was when someone said something slightly negative I believe about a bass part, I can't remember what song page, and someone (a-hard-days-night-george-10) responded by saying "well you just don't like Paul" or something like that and the guy was like, look I play bass and Paul McCartney is the reason. It's just ridiculous that if we don't always praise his most holiness, these ridiculous claims about not liking or respecting Paul come out.

I'm a Lennon fan because I think he's better, period. But I think Paul McCartney is the coolest (white) musician of all time. I play bass (I'll give you one guess as to the bass I play), I study his bass lines and I respect him as one of the most innovative bass guitar players of all time. The guy is simply fantastic.

That being said, I don't consider him necessarily a great songwriter. He's unbelievable from a melodic perspective, but I never really feel where he's coming from on a lot of his songs. Does this mean that I dislike him or disrespect him? That's fine if you think so, but certainly it's not even close to the truth.

My point would be to set emotions aside for a second when something slightly negative is said against Paul and try to see the other person's perspective without automatically assuming they are trying to put Paul down. We all love him and realize that the band would have gone nowhere without him, but that doesn't mean people's opinions should automatically be dismissed.

I sat on a rug, biding my time, drinking her wine
6 November 2011
5.03am
kedame
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But this isn't something slightly negative, and it's not just about Paul. It's about George, too. Saying the only fantastic songs in the entire Beatles catalog are the ones written by John is just an absurd notion. You can certainly say they are your favorites, but why does that mean they are the only so-called first-rate songs?

I never said he hated Paul or disrespected him. I just asked why certain Beatles songs that just happen to be written by Paul (or George) and are generally considered some their greatest songs don't measure up? And if you'll notice, it isn't just me and paulsbass saying this. We might be the loudest, but so far, you seem to be the only person who thinks the same as he does. Mith made some good points in his defense, but you can tell she doesn't necessarily agree with him.

What do you think of as a great songwriter if you can't even say that the songwriter of nearly 50% of the Beatles's songs is a greater songwriter?

Edit: GniknuS, I'm really not trying to be belligerent, here. These are things I really want Anderson and you to answer. Like I said, it's fine for all of us to have a personal favorite. I just don't see why Paul and George's songs should be relegated to a permanent sub-standard status by Anderson. I like Strawberry Fields Forever better than Penny Lane, but that doesn't mean I think Penny Lane is inferior. It's a personal preference. I like Here Comes The Sun better than Paperback Writer and Honey Pie better than Yer Blues. Does that mean I think Honey Pie is a better song than Yer Blues…probably…but I recognize that is an opinion, not a fact. It is not "obvious" that Honey Pie is better, or Here Comes The Sun is better. It is preference. I can't give reasons for that. I don't know what the reasons are. I get it must be tiring to hear people like paulsbass and me defending Paul all the time, but it gets tiring having to hear that people think his music is second rate. I understand it is opinion, and I will mock no one for his or her opinion, but Anderson really just didn't make any sense here, to me, or, it seems, to a lot of people.

Also, could you continue to call Paul his "holiness?" I think it is an apt title.a-hard-days-night-paul-11

"You can manicure a cat but can you caticure a man?" John Lennon- Skywriting by Word of Mouth
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