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1.21pm
6 June 2012
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Well, there are odd time signatures and ODD time signatures. Really, counting 7/4 isn't hard, because you don't count sevens. You count a four and a three. In All You Need Is Love, during the verses, you just count alternating fours and threes, with the fours first. The weird thing about time signatures is when they change, at least for me. AYNIL changes in the last part of the verse, and then again at the end of the chorus. Those are the tricky bits, more than the 7/4 part. As in She Said, She Said, it's the transition that's hard, especially in a band situation. Used to try to play that one with my old band, and it wasn't ever easy.
In Good Morning, Good Morning, it's another story. The time changes from measure to measure in the verse, so that you can't really EVER count it, or at least I can't. I'm metrically deficient. Always have been. I was a Music Theory and Comp major in college, before I switched to English, and was pretty good at analyzing harmony, but HOPELESS at meter and rhythm. I used to have to enlist my drummer to help me. With GMGM, I just have to feel it, and hope I'm feeling it right. I can't possibly ever count while I'm singing, and counting while I play only works in practice. I used to work with a guy who'd been a percussionist with orchestras, and was a "time signature geek," as he used to put it. He, of course, said that GMGM was "Easy. Interesting, actually. But easy. Be great for a marching band." After I got done shooting dirty looks at him, he explained it to me, and counted it, no sweat, the first time he heard it. I still can't hear it properly, to be honest. Wish I could. Are there any percussionists or time signature geeks in here who can count it?
2.08am
10 August 2011
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Good questions, but as an amateur guitarist, I could never figure out how people figure out whether a song is in this or that meter (and why it matters).
12.33pm
26 March 2012
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You figure it out by counting along to it and seeing how many counts are in each bar- for instance, the most common time signature is 4/4. For instance when Paul goes "1 2 3 4!" at the beginning of I Saw Her Standing There, you can count 1234 at that same pace throughout the whole song, 4 beats for each bar. Conversely, You've Got To Hide Your Love Away is in 3/4, because you count 1 2 3 1 2 3 throughout it. Money by Pink Floyd is in 7/4, bit more unusual, you can count 7 throughout it.
As for why it matters? Well… it's how music works. Same as asking why string theory matters (although a little more simple).
2.16pm
10 August 2011
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Ben Ramon, thanks.
I always got the "4" (as in 1 2 3 4) but I never understood the "/4" as in "3/4 time"
I guess it's just a notation and you can ignore the /4 part.
Thanks again.
I suppose I can now weigh in on the matter of the meter in "Happiness Is AWG"
(matter of the meter?)
3.02pm
26 March 2012
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Well the "/4" sometimes changes; basically the second number denotes what the value is of the note you are counting. All of the ones I mentioned above have 4 because they are crotchets (or quarter notes). If it was 6/8, for instance, you'd be counting quavers or eighth notes.
8.20pm
6 June 2012
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Well, /4 indicates that a quarter note gets one beat, whereas /8 indicates that an eighth note gets one beat. Sometimes, it's kind of arbitrary.
For example, if you're counting in 3/4 time (3 beats to a measure, with a quarter note getting one beat), you would count it in three groups of two quavers with an accent on the first beat (ONE and two and three and) for each measure. There are three distinct pulses in each measure.
In 6/8 time (6 beats to the measure, an eighth note getting one beat), on the other hand, you'd be counting two sets of three quavers, with a strong accent on the first beat and a medial accent on the fourth (ONE two three, two two three).
A quaver is an eighth note, btw.
So, country waltzes are usually in 3/4, but jazz waltzes are usually 6/8. For your ears, it's usually a matter of tempo and the accents. If you hear accents equally strong every three beats, and the tempo is medium to slow, it's usually 3/4. If the accents alternate, strong with weaker, with a strong one every six beats, and the tempo is relatively fast, it's usually 6/8. It's a matter of three groups of two versus two groups of three, if that makes any sense.
I don't think there are any Beatles songs in 6/8. Could be wrong. I grew up with the Milton Okun-arranged "Beatlemania" books of Beatles sheet music (and he really did a lousy job, in retrospect), but one thing he had correct, or so I now believe, was putting "You've Got To Hide Your Love Away" in 12/8 time, which I never really understood until recently. 12/8 means that you're counting relatively fast threes, with a strong accent on every twelfth beat. In that song, the strongest accents are on, in the first verse, the words "Here," "Turn," "If," and "Feeling," if that helps to clarify. The other accents (on the words "stand," "head," "hand," and so on) are medial accents (less strong than the ones that occur every 12 beats. How did he decide that? I guess by listening and then looking at the words that begin each clause or sentence, each syntactic unit. Most of the rest of the time, though, Okun was a CHUMP, who changed keys arbitrarily (putting Eight Days a Week in Bb? REALLY?) and got some chords just plain WRONG.
8.37pm
6 June 2012
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Just looked at Alan Pollack's take on the time signature of Good Morning, Good Morning, and he seems right. He scans it thusly:
Each verse starts with a measure of 3, a measure of 4, and then a measure of 3. So, while John is singing "Nothing to do to save his life, call his wife in," it's a total of 10 beats.
The second line ("Nothing to say but 'What a day, how's your boy been?" and the little horn lick) is a measure of 3, a measure of 5, and a measure of 4. 11 beats total.
The third line ("Nothing to do, it's up to you") is a measure of 5 and a measure of 4. 9 beats total.
The fourth line ("I've got nothing to say but 'It's OK, Good Morning, Good Morning.'") is two measures of 3 and two measures of 4. 14 beats total.
So, if you want to think of it visually, in terms of time signature, it'd be:
| 3/4 | 4/4 | 3/4 |
| 3/4 | 5/4 | 4/4 |
| 5/4 | 4/4 |
| 3/4 | 3/4 | 4/4 | 4/4 |
It does, indeed, make sense if you listen and count it this way. Things are more regular in the bridge, but the verse is so chaotic and random-seeming that it always throws me.
Ultimately, I have to conclude that John just heard it this way in his head, and played it how he heard it. I can't imagine him counting it like that. Must have been really hard to teach to the band. And it's such a great song. You don't realize how interesting and complex it is until you try to play it or analyze it. Lots of Beatles songs work that way. And none of them could read music.
I'm really glad that Alan Pollack did the work. He's got some pretty goshdarn good ears.
9.12pm
31 March 2008
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Yep, Pollack's articles are brilliant. I've thought about republishing them on this site – apparently it's OK to do so with a correct credit and back link (ie creative commons, though I don't think he used the term).
Isn't Oh! Darling in 6/8? What about the end of I Want You (SSH), Baby's In Black, Yes It Is, the final bit of MMT?
EDIT: Although George described it as a waltz, I always though I Me Mine was in 6/8. How about Long Long Long? I think that might actually be 3/4, on reflection. And I'm undecided about Yer Blues – that could be 4/4 with a swing beat, or perhaps 12/8.
9.25pm
6 June 2012
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Oh, snap! Forgot about them. Yeah, I guess Baby's In Black has to be 6/8, doesn't it? Never thought about it before, but you're right. Very jazzy, that beat, amongst the folk-rocking, innit?
Now that I count it, yep, I Want You (She's So Heavy) ends in 6/8, too. Oh! Darling, too.
Damn, I've gotta ungunk my ears. Need to go back and really LISTEN for these things.
***
So, I ought to credit Pollack for his work properly:
My post on the shifting time signatures in GMGM is a summary of work done by the estimable Mr. Alan W. Pollack, copyright (C) 1996, and findable here:
http://www.icce.rug.nl/~sounds…..m.shtml#q1
If ANY of you who are musicians and Beatle fans haven't spent a good chunk of time perusing Mr. Pollack's work, you SHOULD. There's a very nice website with multiple ways to access his analyses here:
http://www.icce.rug.nl/~sounds…..s_on.shtml
I have contacted Mr. Pollack (but not heard back from him) to suggest that he consider publishing his "Notes On" series in book form. If he ever does, it will sit on my Beatles reference shelf, right next to the Lewisohn, the Anthology, Andy Babiuk's Beatles Gear, and Geoff Emerick's book. I bow to his ears and his wisdom.
2.17am
10 August 2011
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Very interesting….
Although I can see it as a good music theory exercise, I still wonder why in the 21st century this would matter.
I can see how in the days before recorded music a musician could only go by sheet music; the meter would indicate the cadence.
But today?
Any thoughts on this?
5.13am
6 June 2012
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Well, if you're playing it with a band, you need to know where the downbeats are. When the meter changes with every measure, it's hard to get it right unless you have sussed out the meter changes, and practiced it. Much easier to practice something like this if you can count it, or it is for me. I find that if I can memorize the counts to where I really have it "under my fingers," I can then turn off my brain, and don't need to count any more. Music theory exercise or not, you can't play someone else's song "correctly" unless you can analyze it properly.
9.32am
26 March 2012
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Joe said
Yep, Pollack's articles are brilliant. I've thought about republishing them on this site – apparently it's OK to do so with a correct credit and back link (ie creative commons, though I don't think he used the term).Isn't Oh! Darling in 6/8? What about the end of I Want You (SSH), Baby's In Black, Yes It Is, the final bit of MMT?
EDIT: Although George described it as a waltz, I always though I Me Mine was in 6/8. How about Long Long Long? I think that might actually be 3/4, on reflection. And I'm undecided about Yer Blues – that could be 4/4 with a swing beat, or perhaps 12/8.
Maybe you should contact Pollack and ask if you haven't already? They're pretty essential reading for any Beatlesmaniac who has an interest in the more in depth musical aspect of the songs.
Paul described Baby's In Black as a waltz too. I guess it shows that for all their genius they weren't too clued in on the little details of the theory 
I think 12/8 would be the appropriate counting for Yer Blues if you were to transcribe it to sheet music, but the way the Beatles play it I think they were imagining it in 4/4 with the swing beat as you described- John's count of "2, 3" at the beginning suggests this, although Ringo rides the cymbal in 12/8 and Paul's bass chugs along at the same rate.
I always thought of Yes It Is in 4/4 but now I realize I was wrong, it's in a pretty fast 6/8 to these ears.
1.13pm
1 May 2011
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This stuff goes way over my head, all the 3/4 and 7/8's. Have never understood the indepth musical note stuff and would never be able to identify an a# from a g.
12.32am
19 May 2012
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Joe said
I think George was certainly conscious of the changes, as he'd studied Indian music with Ravi Shankar. That's why Here Comes The Sun is so interesting in its rhythms. I'd imagine McCartney was also aware of the rules and how to break them, but Lennon less so.
I've read before that in writing a song Paul tended to come up with the main melody and most of the instrumental parts first. When the instrumental music was done, Paul would then go looking for words that fit into his new song (or lyrics that "scanned" well as the Beatles would sometimes say).
On the other hand, John was always very much a man of words (he had 2 books published during 1963-65). And John tended to develop a new song's lyrics first along with some basic chords, and then gradually build up the musical parts to fit around his words.
Some have suggested this fundamental difference in songwriting styles as a major explanation for the irregular structure and odd timing aspects in many of John's songs, compared to those of Paul.
1.14pm
1 November 2012
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My apologies if someone mentioned this already (but I browsed through this topic and didn't see it):
The ending of "Mean Mr. Mustard" has a cool transition from 4/4 into 3/4 as it blends into "Polythene Pam".
1.28pm
1 November 2012
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McLerristarr said
All You Need Is Love has time signatures of 7/4, 4/4 and 6/4. Apparently it was the first (and one of only two) songs with a 7/4 time signature to reach the top 20 in the USA.
Though according to Wikipedia jazz legend Dave Brubeck's song Unsquare Dance only made #74 on the Billboard chart (I think in 1961), it remains the gold standard of 7/4 songs (not that there's much competition):
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