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George Martin's organ...
2 October 2013
5.49pm
meanmistermustard
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We could ask Paul on twitter tomorrow if he remembers the Hammond on IWTHYH?

I don't know why I say we as I don't know anything about twitter and additionally I doubt that with the amount of tweets received it would be selected, however if someone here has twitter why not send a few tweets which are better than the ones they will receive like "how did you write Yesterday?".

He told us not to get overwhelmed by grief and whatever thoughts we have... to keep them happy, because any thoughts we have of him will travel to him wherever he is. (John Lennon - 27/8/67)
2 October 2013
5.49pm
martinmocha
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I want to ad, regarding the stealth Hammond RT-3 organ on I Wanna Hold Your Hand, where nay sayers point to the existing, very brief outtakes of the recording, you will note that if you listen closely to John's Guitar in its "pre-superimosed state" play around with the intro bar chords C7 to D7 (where he primarily hits the bottom two strings, the root and fifth with a few upper register notes included) its significantly less saturated, almost anemic and far closer to how his guitar sounds when doing Chuck Berry style chords, root, fifth and hammer on 6th tone, during Roll Over Beethoven, or his very well played backing guitar track on George's Don't Bother Me, all done in that same period between With the Beatles and eventually the October 17 recordings of I Want To Hold Your Hand, This Boy and according to self proclaimed Beatles guru Mark Lewisohn, an aborted attempt to re-record You Really Got A Hold On Me plus a few Christmas messages. 

As stated, the IWTHYH sessions were only a few days (or weeks) after Martin superimposed a much clumsier, less stealthy or compressed Hammond onto the rhythm track of I Wanna Be Your Man so obviously, the germ was in his head to employ the same effect but with far more stealth & heavier bottom end, compression and power in order to mask that is an organ plus, this time, he had his first use of EMI's Telefunken Four track machine. While analyzing the isolated tracks, besides the previously mentioned verses, you can also clearly hear the ORGAN (using extremely heavy compression for the very purpose of blending in with John's guitar) holding the the low intervals of the middle eight chords as well where on the isolated track I have, you can clearly hear John softly strumming simple open chords of Dm to G to C to Am etc.. During the two bridge segments, on track 1, there are clearly two instruments handling the cords and George's guitar is on track 2 (actually is track 2 not track 3 where George had an additional overdub paralleling Paul's chromatic line). Again, there are those who either refuse to acknowledge this due to some bizarre form of denial (but then they'll believe Glenn Beck:-), and there are those that simply don't have the ear to process it. This will eventually punch through and finally, all the notes on IWTHYH will have to be edited to show the following, finally correct line up as follows:

I Want To Hold Your Hand (recorded October 17 at Abbey Road studios, takes 1-17 using Telefunken four track console)

George Harrison - Lead guitars, Gretsch Country Gentleman, main guitar track 2, chromatic line dub, track 3

John Lennon - backing guitar, Rickenbacker Capri 325* (see note) on track 1; lead vocals track 4, additional vocals on "hand" track 3, additional single vocal for low harmony line during bridge track 3

Paul McCartney - Hofner Bass - main bass on track 1, additional dubbed bass chromatic line track 3; lead vocals track 4, additional vocals for "hand" track 3

Ringo Starr - drums, track 1

*George Martin - Hammond RT-3 organ, track 2, later reduced down with original track 1 to create new track 1, superimposed onto John's guitar & embedded

Hand Claps - various Beatles. track 3

3 October 2013
1.22am
Funny Paper
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I'm not one of these guys who can hear all these subtle things in songs (even though I'm a musician and have been playing, listening and writing my own songs for 30 years now), but (there's my big But) it seems to me that the guitar in the German version "Komm, Gib Mir Deine Hand" is markedly less "saturated".

Secondly, I don't much care for that "saturated" sound in "I Want To Hold Your Hand", and for that and other reasons, I much prefer the German version.  Speaking of theories, it's my theory that the Beatles fine-tuned their song as they were running through the recording for the German version, and as is usual for the good artists they are, their fine-tuning improved on the original.  I certainly like the German version better on all accounts.

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3 October 2013
2.11am
Holsety
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Funny Paper said

Secondly, I don't much care for that "saturated" sound in "I Want To Hold Your Hand", and for that and other reasons, I much prefer the German version.  Speaking of theories, it's my theory that the Beatles fine-tuned their song as they were running through the recording for the German version, and as is usual for the good artists they are, their fine-tuning improved on the original.  I certainly like the German version better on all accounts.

I haven't actually thought much about the difference between the two myself.. According to the page for the German Version:

"The original four-track tape of I Want To Hold Your Hand, from 17 October 1963, had been mixed down to two tracks, and onto this they re-recorded their vocals in German."

I just noticed that the guitar track on the German version is panned to the left, and it seems like the guitar is just a bit more prominent than the English version, which is more blended. I also noticed some of George's lead lines sounded more raw, less muffled in the German version.

Please don't wake me, no don't shake me, leave me where I am, I'm only sleeping~.
3 October 2013
2.38am
trcanberra
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I thought this thread was related to the John Lennon one re occasional orientation, but apparently not ...

On topic - it's interesting how much young Mr Martin added to the sound of the Beatles even early on, especially in light of the 'able to play this live' or not when they were thinking of giving up touring.  It was interesting watching a clip of them miming to a song on Anthology and see them trying to make it look like they were clapping their hands in breaks between playing guitar - they ALMOST pulled it off.

3 October 2013
5.33am
Von Bontee
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Is the isolated track available anywhere, like on youtube? I'd like to hear that!

Nothing in that track has ever sounded like a Hammond organ to me. But I've admitted being wrong about previous misconceptions after hearing isolated Beatles tracks before! (eg. the 1-2-3-4 on "Taxman")

And martinmocha: Welcome to the forum; please feel free to "Introduce Yourself" on the relevant thread if you wish; and please never confuse Beatles obsessives with Glenn Beck fanboys again!

One day, a tape-op got a tape on backwards, he went to play it, and it was all "Neeeradno-undowarrroom" and it was "Wow! Sounds Indian!" -- Paul McCartney
4 October 2013
3.33pm
RingoStarr39
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Here's track 3 of the original 4 track of I Want To Hold Your Hand:

If you listening closely, what most people think is an organ is actually a guitar.

Also, when they combined track 1 and 2 for the backing track of Komm, Gib Mir Deine Hand, that guitar part was lost so they had to overdub a different guitar which is only heard on the German version.

5 October 2013
5.32pm
Von Bontee
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No part of that sounds anything like an organ to me. At all. I wish martinmocha could point out exactly when it's most audible. (Thanks for embedding that, Mr. 39, btw.)

And yeah, Funny Paper commented on that one guitar part sounding completely different in the German track.

One day, a tape-op got a tape on backwards, he went to play it, and it was all "Neeeradno-undowarrroom" and it was "Wow! Sounds Indian!" -- Paul McCartney
6 October 2013
1.42am
Funny Paper
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I think there are quite a few things different about the German version.  I don't know why no one seems to have mentioned it.  Everybody seems to think it was more or less a near copy, and the received history of the recording implies that they just used most of the original and only added one thing to it, and sang exactly the same.  But to my ears, they must have varied a lot of things.  I frankly don't trust these histories about the early recordings, because people forget stuff, and a lot of it is not documented in a foolproof way (as for example a film documentary showing everything they did would do).

In some early post a few months ago, I articulated most of the differences I could detect.  I might try to resurrect it...

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...
6 October 2013
2.17am
Funny Paper
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...an employee within EMI who does not want his name revealed, he emailed me this following, very revealing message also back in 2009. "there are things about the recording of I Want To Hold Your Hand I am not at liberty to discuss, however, I can tell you this, beyond the documented 17 takes, people have no idea how complex this recording was and what went into it". That raised a red flag, why the secrecy? What are they hiding and why?

A hidden reel-to-reel tape has been discovered that was left on accidentally for over three hours during that October 17, 1963 recording session.  Here is a selected transcription of relevant parts:

[music stops, Paul to John]

When do you think we should start the rumors of my death?

[John]

George [Martin] agreed that we should start them after we arrange to have you killed, which was...

[sound garbled, unidentified voice]

[John again]

... right, before Christmas of next year.

[Ringo]

Who gets the honors?

[John]

Honors...?

[Ringo]

You know, to off Paul...

[Laughter; John again]

Actually, Ronnie Kray has told George [Martin] he would arrange it for a price...

[Paul]

Well, I better get my affairs in order...

[Laughter; Paul]

I don't know why everyone's laughing...

[John]

While we're talking of conspiracies, I think congratulations are in order for Ringo -- without you pulling the trigger on the grassy knoll, Johnny Kennedy would still be alive.

[smattering of applause; Ringo]

Oh please, it wasn't all that much -- and I couldn't have done it without the help of Buddy Holly, speaking of faked deaths...

[George Harrison]

I guess you blokes haven't heard...

[John, Paul, Ringo in unison]

Heard what...?

[George]

Buddy was killed last week by aliens from Saturn, using magenta death rays.

[Paul]

The same aliens from Saturn who switched our bodies with the Rolling Stones and vice versa?

[George]

No, different aliens from Saturn.

[Paul]

Ah, right.

[George Martin, from the booth]

Are you boys ready for take 16?  Remember, we're pretending to record "I Want To Hold Your Hand" but really we're recording a secret message to President Obama back in the 13th century...

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...
6 October 2013
2.51am
Ahhh Girl
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*rolls eyes*

I needed that laugh after hitting hard at getting this portfolio done. I've worked too long and now I have a headache.

6 October 2013
8.13pm
Funny Paper
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Thanks cbatcu.  My next post below will be another attempt at humor.

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6 October 2013
8.15pm
Funny Paper
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"George Martin's organ"...? 

Oh, sorry, must have wandered into the wrong topic.  I thought I was in the "John Lennon gay leanings" one....  blue-meanie

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6 October 2013
10.23pm
Von Bontee
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Funny Paper said

I think there are quite a few things different about the German version.  I don't know why no one seems to have mentioned it.  ...

I mentioned it both here AND on that other thread of yours where you brought the matter up the first time! And took your position both times. What am I, chopped liver?!

(Liked that clandestine conversation btw; too bad you couldn't have incorporated some John-is-gay subterfuge into it somehow...)

One day, a tape-op got a tape on backwards, he went to play it, and it was all "Neeeradno-undowarrroom" and it was "Wow! Sounds Indian!" -- Paul McCartney
8 October 2013
2.44am
Funny Paper
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Ah thanks for reminding me Von Bontee, I had forgotten.  We could found a "KommGibMirians" club and (maybe someday find a third person to join)!

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8 October 2013
6.13pm
appmanga
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martinmocha said
...Emerick and Martin have formed mental cobwebs after the last 50 years, it really only leaves Sir Paul and Ringo and until somebody asks Sir Paul directly, assuming even he can remember the details of a 50 year old recording, this fact will never be 100% verified or at least not until, an audio scientist uses state of the art, wave analysis and masking technology used by law enforcement and our military and I doubt that is going to be any time soon.

 

There is a software called Melodyne that can separate out the notes within a recording, but with so many instruments and voices present in this recording, it would take a significant amount of work to isolate each one, but it could be done.

14 October 2013
6.08am
martinmocha
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Funny Paper said Secondly, I don't much care for that "saturated" sound in "I Want To Hold Your Hand", and for that and other reasons, I much prefer the German version.  Speaking of theories, it's my theory that the Beatles fine-tuned their song as they were running through the recording for the German version, and as is usual for the good artists they are, their fine-tuning improved on the original.  I certainly like the German version better on all accounts.

The German version IS the same instrumental track mixed down to one tape and it was brought to France for the recording since, gee, I wonder why....John was not about to duplicated that "sound" on his Ricky and Martin was not about to go through the bullsh.it of superimposing a Hammond so they make it simple and just brought the mixed down backing tracks from Abbey Road.....nobody seems to wonder why they didn't re-record the whole tune (the plot thickens). In any case, all the fabs did was overdub new German vocals, hand claps, and George added a new Guitar chromatic line to give a "fresh" or live sound. 

 

Other than that, its the same instrumentation taken from the original four track, multi-track at Abbey Road for IWTHYH or should I say "gland". 

14 October 2013
6.41am
vonbontee
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Ah, so you did point out exact times, sorry. Maybe don't bury in them in so much excess verbiage next time (4 consecutive posts! Including two offensive ones now fortunately deleted) and I won't miss it next time.

I'll listen again when I have my headphones available. And I'll be satisfied when I know the truth, whatever that happens to be.

I just want to play. I’d like to think I could work opposite Sinatra, B.B. King, the Beatles, or a polka band... - Jazz musician Rahsaan Roland Kirk, 1967
15 October 2013
12.14am
Funny Paper
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martinmocha said

Funny Paper said Secondly, I don't much care for that "saturated" sound in "I Want To Hold Your Hand", and for that and other reasons, I much prefer the German version.  Speaking of theories, it's my theory that the Beatles fine-tuned their song as they were running through the recording for the German version, and as is usual for the good artists they are, their fine-tuning improved on the original.  I certainly like the German version better on all accounts.

The German version IS the same instrumental track mixed down to one tape and it was brought to France for the recording since, gee, I wonder why....John was not about to duplicated that "sound" on his Ricky and Martin was not about to go through the bullsh.it of superimposing a Hammond so they make it simple and just brought the mixed down backing tracks from Abbey Road.....nobody seems to wonder why they didn't re-record the whole tune (the plot thickens). In any case, all the fabs did was overdub new German vocals, hand claps, and George added a new Guitar chromatic line to give a "fresh" or live sound. 

 

Other than that, its the same instrumentation taken from the original four track, multi-track at Abbey Road for IWTHYH or should I say "gland". 

"The German version IS the same instrumental track mixed down..."

I know that this is the received claim.  It just doesn't jibe with what I hear when I listen to the two versions back to back.  The German version sounds markedly different -- and better -- to my ears.  Now, it is possible that the result of "mixing down" rendered the sound slightly flatter and more washed out (which is the kind of sound I tend to like).  There seem to be other differences that wouldn't be fully explained by this theory, however.  I don't have time right now to detail them, but perhaps in the coming week.

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19 October 2013
4.09am
martinmocha
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Regarding Komm Gib Mir deine Hand:

Funny Paper wrote - " I know that this is the received claim.  It just doesn't jibe with what I hear when I listen to the two versions back to back.  The German version sounds markedly different -- and better -- to my ears.  Now, it is possible that the result of "mixing down" rendered the sound slightly flatter and more washed out (which is the kind of sound I tend to like).  There seem to be other differences that wouldn't be fully explained by this theory, however.  I don't have time right now to detail them, but perhaps in the coming week."

 

Before I respond to your recalcitrance on this issue, here is a quote from Mark Lewisohns "Beatles Recording Sessions" page 38: "first task was to add "Komm Gib Mir Deine Hand vocals to the ENGLISH rhythm track of I Want To Hold Your Hand, mixed down from four to two track...". 

Listen, I don't know how you are hearing a different instrumental track unless you are confused by Harrisons NEW overdub of the guitar chromatic line that parallels the bass although you can still hear Harrison's original riff underneath from the original but as noted above in Lewisohns book, it was a known fact that Martin used the British backing track from IWTHYH. It is a also a fact that Harrison overdubbed a new, additional guitar line for KommGib Mir Deine Hand plus they added new handclaps and of course, the German vocals. George Martin has been interviewed and discussed in great detail how he mixed down the instrumental tracks from the multitrack master of I Want To Hold Your Hand then brought it to the studio in France for the recording. Since She Loves You was only available in mono, due to Abbey Road losing or destroying the original stereo twin track master, they had to record an entirely NEW instrumental plus vocal track for Sie Liebt Dich

If even Lewisohn and George Martin's own interviews don't convince you, then listen to Komm Gib where at 0:13-0:14, you hear the same exact out of phase sound of two instruments chunking that B7 chord and then again at 1:17 and 1:59 exactly as on IWTHYH....sorry, its not a different recording. Its been documented in numerous books, articles and interviews including what you see above but most importantly, it can be "heard". If you ears can't hear it, then I give up, believe what you want. I bowed out of a debate where one self proclaimed Beatles expert asserted that Ringo sang Lady Madonna, huh? Sure and we all know that Tiny Tim actually sang All You Need Is Love and James Brown sang Yesterday - it only gets worse:-)

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