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George Martin's organ...
26 February 2013
5.16am
RunForYourLife
Ed Sullivan Show
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That sounds dirty, doesn't it?

On "I Wanna Be Your Man" George Martin "thickened" John's guitar sound by adding a Hammond Organ overdub and blending them (He plays a clearly audible descending glissando after the first and third verses).

Can anyone with a good set of ears determine what exactly Mr. Martin is playing during the verse? Even listening to the isolated tracks, the sounds blend together too well for me to aurally "separate" the guitar and organ.

It's a total throwaway song, but I've always liked the instrumentation.

26 February 2013
2.06pm
Into the Sky with Diamonds
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"It's a total throwaway song"

Maybe not completely. They did record it and release it after all (in contradistinction to "World Without Love" and other real throwaways) + played it during one of his tours (Paul Is Live maybe).

(P.S. sorry, don't have an answer to your question!)

 

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26 February 2013
2.44pm
vonbontee
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I don't think "A World Without Love" is a throwaway! (A giveaway, sure.) I would've liked to have heard a Beatle version of it. Maybe as the "missing" 14th song on AHDN.

(I can't answer the thread question either.)

I just want to play. I’d like to think I could work opposite Sinatra, B.B. King, the Beatles, or a polka band... - Jazz musician Rahsaan Roland Kirk, 1967
26 February 2013
5.16pm
Funny Paper
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RunForYourLife said
That sounds dirty, doesn't it?

On "I Wanna Be Your Man" George Martin "thickened" John's guitar sound by adding a Hammond Organ overdub and blending them (He plays a clearly audible descending glissando after the first and third verses).

Can anyone with a good set of ears determine what exactly Mr. Martin is playing during the verse? Even listening to the isolated tracks, the sounds blend together too well for me to aurally "separate" the guitar and organ.

It's a total throwaway song, but I've always liked the instrumentation.

Also don't have an answer, but I have a question: I read in the comments to the German version of "I Wanna Hold Your Man" ("Komm, Gib Mir Deine Hand") that Martin similarly beefed up John's guitar with an organ; yet Joe (owner of this site) seemed to imply that the organish sound was entirely due to John's specially "compressed" guitar.  What say you?

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...
27 February 2013
12.51am
RunForYourLife
Ed Sullivan Show
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Funny Paper said

Also don't have an answer, but I have a question: I read in the comments to the German version of "I Wanna Hold Your Man" ("Komm, Gib Mir Deine Hand") that Martin similarly beefed up John's guitar with an organ; yet Joe (owner of this site) seemed to imply that the organish sound was entirely due to John's specially "compressed" guitar.  What say you?

I've seen testimony of folks who have listened to the master tapes, and most of them say that unusual tone is just John pounding away on his Ric with heavy compression. I can hear something that sounds kind of like an organ hidden there, but I'm sticking with the "guitar only" theory until there's some definitive proof otherwise.

27 February 2013
8.28am
Gerell
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RunForYourLife said

Funny Paper said

Also don't have an answer, but I have a question: I read in the comments to the German version of "I Wanna Hold Your Man" ("Komm, Gib Mir Deine Hand") that Martin similarly beefed up John's guitar with an organ; yet Joe (owner of this site) seemed to imply that the organish sound was entirely due to John's specially "compressed" guitar.  What say you?

I've seen testimony of folks who have listened to the master tapes, and most of them say that unusual tone is just John pounding away on his Ric with heavy compression. I can hear something that sounds kind of like an organ hidden there, but I'm sticking with the "guitar only" theory until there's some definitive proof otherwise.

Confused here, what's I wanna hold your man? I do hear the "glissando" part you're talking about, but I am not sure if it's an organ or guitar.

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27 February 2013
6.43pm
Funny Paper
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Sorry, that was a typo for "Hand"

 

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...
27 February 2013
9.48pm
Linde
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I'm REALLY deaf, apparently xD I've never heard the SH thing in I Want To Hold Your Hand AND I've never heard the organ in I Wanna Be Your Man either. I didn't know it had an organ until I read it on here haha. I did hear it in the Anthology version though.

28 February 2013
7.21pm
RunForYourLife
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To clarify…

"I Want To Hold Your Hand" is the song with the controversial and unconfirmed organ overdub.

"I Wanna Be Your Man" is the song with the audible organ glissando after the verses.

They were both recorded around the same time, and the similar titles are confusing, which leads some to believe that the rumor about an overdub on "Hand" came about as a misunderstanding about the confirmed overdub on "Man".

28 February 2013
7.52pm
vonbontee
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During which sections of "Hand" is the alleged organ most audible? I've never heard anything but guitar/bass myself.

I just want to play. I’d like to think I could work opposite Sinatra, B.B. King, the Beatles, or a polka band... - Jazz musician Rahsaan Roland Kirk, 1967
28 February 2013
11.02pm
Linde
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I know, I haven't heard it on either song.

28 February 2013
11.15pm
vonbontee
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But it's easy to hear in "I Wanna Be Your Man"! Or it should be.

I just want to play. I’d like to think I could work opposite Sinatra, B.B. King, the Beatles, or a polka band... - Jazz musician Rahsaan Roland Kirk, 1967
1 March 2013
4.50am
RunForYourLife
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vonbontee said
During which sections of "Hand" is the alleged organ most audible? I've never heard anything but guitar/bass myself.

I believe the idea is that the organ doubles the C to D bit in the intro, then plays quarter notes in unison with John's guitar during the verses to "fatten" up the sound. Listening to the isolated tracks, however, I can hear that it's just the Rickenbacker getting an unusual, raunchy tone, combined with a ton of compression (It's hard to hear on the finished song, but it has a nice little "crunch" to it).

1 March 2013
4.54am
RunForYourLife
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Linde said
I know, I haven't heard it on either song.

On "I Wanna Be Your Man", after the 1st and third verses, Martin slides down the keyboard audibly. Then during the outro, he plays a little riff on it several times.

1 March 2013
5.09pm
vonbontee
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OK thanks for that, I know what you mean, I can almost hear the alleged parts in my head right now!

I still don't think it sounds organ-like, really, but I can imagine other people thinking that.

I just want to play. I’d like to think I could work opposite Sinatra, B.B. King, the Beatles, or a polka band... - Jazz musician Rahsaan Roland Kirk, 1967
1 March 2013
5.21pm
Ron Nasty
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vonbontee said
OK thanks for that, I know what you mean, I can almost hear the alleged parts in my head right now!

I still don't think it sounds organ-like, really, but I can imagine other people thinking that.

Back to my trusty The Complete Beatles Recording Sessions and Mark Lewisohn, Monday 30 September 1963: "The Beatles were out of the country on well-deserved holidays when this session took place… George Martin overdubbed… Hammond organ on I Wanna Be Your Man (the 'best' being take 13)."

Hope that helps.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
1 March 2013
5.24pm
vonbontee
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No, I was talking about "…Hold Your Hand". The organ on "…Be Your Man" is easily apparent.

I just want to play. I’d like to think I could work opposite Sinatra, B.B. King, the Beatles, or a polka band... - Jazz musician Rahsaan Roland Kirk, 1967
1 March 2013
5.35pm
Ron Nasty
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Sorry, got confused by post above being about "…Man", "…Hand" Lewisohn says they had perfected when they walked into the studio on 17 October, bar a couple of vocal experiments (including "take four – saw Paul introduce the not uncommon 1963 Beatle 'h' into words (shay that shomthing)." – but that's another thread!). No talk of Martin on Hammond during the session, and no later overdub.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
2 March 2013
7.14pm
Linde
The Netherlands
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RunForYourLife said

Linde said
I know, I haven't heard it on either song.

On "I Wanna Be Your Man", after the 1st and third verses, Martin slides down the keyboard audibly. Then during the outro, he plays a little riff on it several times.

Oh okay. Going to listen to it again with my earphones on and the sound on blowingmyearsoutofmyhead and then I'll probably finally hear it, like the sh thing in ''Hand'' haha.

2 October 2013
5.16pm
martinmocha
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"have listened to the master tapes, and most of them say that unusual tone is just John pounding away on his Ric with heavy compression. I can hear something that sounds kind of like an organ hidden there, but I'm sticking with the "guitar only" theory until there's some definitive proof otherwise."

I am the one who has been proposing the use of a Hammond RT-3 organ, superimposed (to mmic a guitar) onto John’s guitar track for over 30 years and only now, is it starting to penetrate with the availability of discrete isolated tracks leaking from the multi track master. in 2009, via Mr. Sharp, an engineer/consultant who worked with George and Giles Martin on the remastering project, kindly passed on an email directly to George Martin regarding my assertion of a Hammond RT-3 organ superimposed on Lennon's Rickenbacker for the backing tracks, of course, further mixing down the basic rhythm track of the drums, bass, John's guitar and Hammond to imbed the organ (George's guitars are on a separate track on the multitrack master). Martin responded as follows [""....I don't think there were keyboards on that song but than again it was so long ago i can't be sure...I CAN'T say that there ISN'T a keyboard on that tune"] meaning he simply can't remember any longer although he did remember when asked by a Washing D.C. radio personality during a MID 90s book tour and responded in the affirmative. Additionally my research led me to contact an employee within EMI who does not want his name revealed, he emailed me this following, very revealing message also back in 2009. "there are things about the recording of I Want To Hold Your Hand I am not at liberty to discuss, however, I can tell you this, beyond the documented 17 takes, people have no idea how complex this recording was and what went into it". That raised a red flag, why the secrecy? What are they hiding and why? Its just a recording. Also, since the above article, I have accessed samples of four isolated tracks sent to me that are from the multi track master. These tracks, notably track 1, more clearly reveal John's alleged guitar work without the interference of Georges lead guitar from track 2. Track 1 features bass, drums and John's guitar with the companion keyboards, namely , the Hammond RT-3. Here are the intervals that most strikingly reveal the presence of a second instrument, heavily compressed and creating an out of phase, displacement at various points such as: 

At 0:8 seconds, just as the vocals begin "oh yeah i"ll", the Hammond organ makes its stealthy entrance immediately thickening up John's guitar which in the preceding moments, while John was playing the introduction C7-D7 bar chords (7th tone on 4th string) was significantly less saturated, plainer and not infused with the additional instrument.

0:13-0:14 where you can a hear a strikingly conspicuous attack of low organ keys fused with Johns' guitar on the B7 chord, NOT an artifact, not a bleed through, not another guitar paralleling his and not special effects and Paul playing double stops on his Hofner bass. George's lead guitar is on another track, which is track three on my version and he just plays discrete chord chops, a few riffs and arpeggios etc..using a very trebly tone on his Gretsch Country Gentlemen. George overdubbed his guitar again for an additional chromatic line that parallels the bass on track 3 of the isolations. 

Now during the refrain of the title, where the chord sequence is C to D to G to Em etc., on the isolated track I have (track 1) that is just of the rhythm section, bass, drums, John's guitar and the additional keys, you can hear John clearly hitting plain vanilla chords while the organ is hitting those deep tones at the same time, noticeable at 0:22-23 etc.,very cleverly interlaced by Martin.

The other examples of the stealth organ (meaning Martin's attempt to blend the low register organ keys into Lennon's chords so tightly that it would not be overtly obvious) are again during the B7 chords at 1:17, and most conspicuous of all at 1:59-2:00.

Again, as stated previously, Martin had all the right motives for employing the organ in such a manner as to thicken Lennon's guitar and yet, not reveal it as overtly as he did during the I Wanna Be Your Man edits where the glissandos give away the organ. The entire purpose of adding the Hammond to Lennon's guitar on IWTHYH was to embellish his guitar track, add power and energy with out tipping off it was an organ and Martin, who was a master at dubbing on instruments to strengthen a guitar, keyboard or even vocals, was ready to do whatever was necessary to break open the American market with IWTHYH and since this was his first chance to utilize EMI's Telefunken four track console, he took full advantage. The fact that even Wikepedia now, for the first time since I have battered the internet with my theory, includes a line within their official I Want To Hold Your Hand article, ''"Also, the Beatles were experimenting with organ-sounding guitars, which was achieved by extreme compression on John Lennon's rhythm guitar."'' indicates how this is slowly penetrating the Beatlephile world but again the sound attributed to John's guitar was NOT compression, nor a bleed through, nor an artifact, or Paul's occasional double stops (which are confined to the bridge), nor some anomalous studio ambient effect, in this case its Occam's Razor that comes in to play, our ears don't lie, if they are acute, and the reason Lennon's guitar has that great effect, producing that literal deep wall of sound that makes IWTHYH the powerful recording it is, is simple, the addition of a heavily compressed, cleverly overlaid Hammond RT-3 organ to embellish and lend tremendous power to Lennon's original rhythm track. It wasn't by accident that John could never re-create that sound live no matter how many venues they performed IWTHYH in while he used his original Rickenbacker Capri 325 with the Vox AC-15 twin combo nor with his second Rickenbacker Capri. That said, it is the best and most logical explanation for the sound that drives the recording and since Norman Smith, the original engineer on that recording is dead, Emerick and Martin have formed mental cobwebs after the last 50 years, it really only leaves Sir Paul and Ringo and until somebody asks Sir Paul directly, assuming even he can remember the details of a 50 year old recording, this fact will never be 100% verified or at least not until, an audio scientist uses state of the art, wave analysis and masking technology used by law enforcement and our military and I doubt that is going to be any time soon.

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