Was John Haunted By His Inner Emptiness? | Page 2 | Fab Forum

Please consider registering
Guest

sp_LogInOut Log In sp_Registration Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —






— Match —





— Forum Options —





Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

sp_Feed sp_TopicIcon
Was John Haunted By His Inner Emptiness?
No permission to create posts
15 April 2014
4.18am
Avatar
C.R.A.
Land of the Rising Sun
Ed Sullivan Show
Forum Posts: 442
Member Since:
4 February 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Whatever his demons or fears, Lennon contended with something that was so very personal and probably started when he was a boy.  I'm no psychologist, but I think we're all capable of imagining the pain he carried from the turmoil of his youth.  What therapy is there that resolves not ever knowing who you are?

I'm glad I have my parents.  Still.

“Send John out first; he’s the one they want.” ~ someone said it, dammit. Memphis, 1966
15 April 2014
1.43pm
Avatar
Ahhh Girl
sailing on a winedark open sea
Moderator


Forum Posts: 11640
Member Since:
20 August 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I'm still hanging right in there with him then, cra. I have all these people telling me who I am/how I come across as a person, and I wonder who in the heck they are talking about. When your outward portayal is so vastly different from your inner realities, things can get mixed up and messed up in your heart, mind, and soul.

I sure do like the person they describe. I hope to be her one day. Or maybe I am her and just can't see it yet for myself.

The following people thank Ahhh Girl for this post:

IveJustSeenAFaceo, Silly Girl
15 April 2014
3.33pm
Avatar
Expert Textpert
In bed.
Rishikesh
Forum Posts: 2565
Member Since:
18 April 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Sometimes I start thinking about my faults and everything I've ever done wrong, and before I know it I think I'm the worst person who ever walked the face of the earth.  Most of the time I'm unaware of all of those things because I push them from my mind.  I don't think any of us are who we think we are OR who others think we are.  I try not to define myself.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death." --John Lennon
15 April 2014
3.49pm
Avatar
WETSRoosa
Mountains of East Tennessee
Candlestick Park
Forum Posts: 1112
Member Since:
6 August 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Expert Textpert said
Sometimes I start thinking about my faults and everything I've ever done wrong, and before I know it I think I'm the worst person who ever walked the face of the earth.  Most of the time I'm unaware of all of those things because I push them from my mind.  I don't think any of us are who we think we are OR who others think we are.  I try not to define myself.

 

“All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think we become.”

"There's no such thing as bad student... only bad teacher."
16 April 2014
1.56am
Avatar
Billy Rhythm
Carnegie Hall
Forum Posts: 576
Member Since:
22 December 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Ahhh Girl said
I have all these people telling me who I am/how I come across as a person, and I wonder who in the heck they are talking about.

I am he as you are he as you are me
And we are all together

...:-)

16 April 2014
2.10am
Avatar
Ahhh Girl
sailing on a winedark open sea
Moderator


Forum Posts: 11640
Member Since:
20 August 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Billy Rhythm said

Ahhh Girl said
I have all these people telling me who I am/how I come across as a person, and I wonder who in the heck they are talking about.

I am he as you are he as you are me
And we are all together

...:-)

We on the forum are all becoming one another - sort of. We are all become a part of one another's thinking at least. Together we can't be collectively empty. When one of us has run out of gas, another is there to keep the engine going.

The following people thank Ahhh Girl for this post:

Silly Girl
16 April 2014
3.04pm
Avatar
LikeASir
London Palladium
Forum Posts: 175
Member Since:
29 August 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

It's probably been noted before but John was probably hurt by the fact that Julia's death was so sudden and unexpected whilst Paul had a chance to say goodbye to Mary. I mean, everything in John's life was sudden; death of Uncle George, Julia, Stuart Sutcliffe, Brian Epstein - all these foundations he'd latched onto as support torn away from him. I imagine him as a barnacle - desperately trying to cling on to anything around him.

The following people thank LikeASir for this post:

Oudis, Silly Girl

"White Album - My joint-fave Beatles album along with Revolver. They show the two sides of Beatles. Revolver's very controlled - even though it's also very innovative. The White Album's playful and almost ramshackle. It's like a scrapbook kept by a genius. Fantastic stuff."

23 July 2014
8.45am
Avatar
Oudis
Candlestick Park
Forum Posts: 1404
Member Since:
15 May 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Lennonista said 

I think we all have inner emptiness, holes than cannot be filled. And I agree that John was most definitely haunted by his. He was ever aware of it, very tuned in-- unlike most of us. His was profound, though... deeper than most. I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing, but I think there was an emptiness in his heart, and that the one thing he truly wanted/needed was the one thing he also knew he'd never have--the unconditional love of his mum and dad.

Spot-on, Lennonista, at least in my opinion. Poor John. And many of us loved him, and still love him, so much. 

Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit” (“Perhaps one day it will be a pleasure to look back on even this”; Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 1, line 203, where Aeneas says this to his men after the shipwreck that put them on the shores of Africa)

17 September 2014
10.40pm
Avatar
Ahhh Girl
sailing on a winedark open sea
Moderator


Forum Posts: 11640
Member Since:
20 August 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Billy Rhythm said

John was a Dreamer, he dreamt away to escape from the reality of his life ("Living is easy with eyes closed, Misunderstanding all you see").  The ability to physically manifest his dreams through his art and music was his therapy, the Primal Scream Therapy was just a temporary extreme measure that helped get him back on track after being somewhat forced to "face his demons" after being finally freed from the chains of being someone that he wasn't for a very long time, and being just John as opposed to being Beatle John for the first time since his youth in 1970 ("I was the Walrus but now I'm John") was quite a traumatic experience for him, as any abrupt change if even for the better can be (such as quitting smoking).  Psychotherapy likely wouldn't have worked out at all for John Lennon, any Psychotherapist could learn far more from John then he could ever from them because Lennon learned his valued life lessons from unimaginable experiences that they could never learn through any Psychology Educational Institution.

 

His "Inner Emptiness" drove him, he channeled it through positive means for both himself and countless others, I'm not sure that "Haunted" is the right word here.  If some of John's best work appears to be dark or reflections of his "Inner Emptiness", it's perhaps that because when things were going well for him he was too busy enjoying himself and couldn't be bothered to stop and write it all down.  I'd reckon that he was quite fulfilled inside on many fronts and made conscious efforts to counter his shortfalls or mistakes made along the way.  When Sean was born, he knew deep down that he had to do a better job at Fatherhood, and knew full well exactly the negative impact of playing the game as a Beatle had had on his strained relationship with Julian, he vowed to do it differently right from the outset and turning a negative experience into a positive is absolutely a sure sign of someone who's come to terms with himself.  He appeared to learn from mistakes made during his first marriage as well and chose to do things differently with Yoko.  Many believe that his Peace Campaigns were inspired from his pension for violence at an earlier age, this appears to me to be a man who not only didn't require professional help, but could help show many others a thing or two about "confronting your demons" as effectively as he did...:-)     

I thought of clipping out some of BR's post in my quoting of it, but, dang, it works so well as a whole.

Perhaps no one could have be a psychotherapist to John, but imagine if you could have given John some help when he "opened up the doors" and asked someone to please, please help him to get his feet back on the ground. How would you have helped him? What would you have said to him? Suggested to him to do?

This thread fascinates me.

18 September 2014
12.05am
Avatar
Oudis
Candlestick Park
Forum Posts: 1404
Member Since:
15 May 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Ahhh Girl said 

Perhaps no one could have be a psychotherapist to John, but imagine if you could have given John some help when he "opened up the doors" and asked someone to please, please help him to get his feet back on the ground. How would you have helped him? What would you have said to him? Suggested to him to do?

This thread fascinates me.

Hello everybody. Well, @Ahhh Girl, maybe this is not the response you expected, but here it is.  I’m copying from Wikipedia:

"The musician John Lennon and his wife, Yoko Ono, went through primal therapy in 1970. A copy of the just-released The Primal Scream arrived in the mail at Tittenhurst Park (sources differ about who sent the book). Lennon was impressed, and he requested primal therapy to be started at Tittenhurst. Arthur Janov and his first wife, Vivian Janov, went to Tittenhurst in March 1970 to start the therapy, which continued in April in Los Angeles. Arthur Janov went to Tittenhurst after giving instructions in advance about the isolation period and giving instructions to Lennon to be separated from Ono. Lennon and Ono had three weeks of intensive treatment in England before Janov returned to Los Angeles, where they had four months of therapy."

"According to some sources, Lennon ended primal therapy after four months. Arthur Janov later said, "They cut the therapy off just as it started, really....We were just getting going....We had opened him up, and we didn't have time to put him back together again." Another source states that Lennon and Ono broke off treatment after continuous disputes between Ono and Janov."

"Lennon commented after therapy, "I still think that Janov's therapy is great, you know, but I do not want to make it a big Maharishi thing" and "I just know myself better, that's all. I can handle myself better. That Janov thing, the primal scream and so on, it does affect you, because you recognize yourself in there...It was very good for me. I am still 'primal' and it still works." and "I no longer have any need for drugs, the Maharishi or the Beatles. I am myself and I know why."

 "Shortly after therapy, Lennon produced his album John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band. (Ono recorded a parallel album, Yoko Ono/Plastic Ono Band from her experiences; both albums were released on the same day on the Apple record label.) Lennon's album featured a number of songs that were directly affected by his experience in therapy, including "Remember", "I Found Out", "Isolation", "God", "Mother", "My Mummy's Dead", and "Working Class Hero"."

Well, the first thing I’d like to point out is that John did have a therapist. The second is that Janov gave instructions to John to be separated from Yoko. The third, that Yoko had problems with Janov. The fourth, that they cut the process off after just four months –and therapeutic processes take much longer. The process was never completed. The fifth, that John claimed he didn’t need The Beatles, or the Maharishi, or drugs any more –yet we do know he kept on doing drugs after his therapy, and he remained 'addicted' to Yoko.

I’ll leave it to you guys to draw your own conclusions.

Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit” (“Perhaps one day it will be a pleasure to look back on even this”; Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 1, line 203, where Aeneas says this to his men after the shipwreck that put them on the shores of Africa)

18 September 2014
6.26pm
Avatar
StrawberryFieldsForever
Shea Stadium
Forum Posts: 834
Member Since:
15 June 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Just yesterday it occurred to me that John and George were both philosophical and yet very different. For example George had always had an inclination towards Eastern mysticism, if that's the right word, as the following excerpt from wiki says:

While pregnant with George, she often listened to the weekly broadcast Radio India. Harrison's biographer Joshua Greene wrote, "Every Sunday she tuned in to mystical sounds evoked by sitars and tablas, hoping that the exotic music would bring peace and calm to the baby in the womb." 

So while George found what he was looking for, John in a way didn't. What do you guys think? John, as most of say and I agree with this 100%, knew and understood himself but I think he needed someone/ something to allow him to change his attitude. IMO he was in search of that someone/ something all throughout his life which also kept him going, prodding him to keep searching...from Maharishi to macrobiotic diet.

Yoko probably helped him to come to terms with the fact that he's looking for something meaningful  and that it was okay to be doing so which gave him more confidence or a breathing space to understand himself and untangle his mind. But I don't think she was successful in filling the void in him. And I digressed didn't I?a-hard-days-night-john-2 

The following people thank StrawberryFieldsForever for this post:

Mr. Kite, Silly Girl
23 September 2014
6.32am
Lennonista
Los Angeles
The Star-Club
Forum Posts: 71
Member Since:
23 April 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Oudis said
Well, the first thing I’d like to point out is that John did have a therapist. The second is that Janov gave instructions to John to be separated from Yoko. The third, that Yoko had problems with Janov. The fourth, that they cut the process off after just four months –and therapeutic processes take much longer. The process was never completed. The fifth, that John claimed he didn’t need The Beatles, or the Maharishi, or drugs any more –yet we do know he kept on doing drugs after his therapy, and he remained 'addicted' to Yoko.

I’ll leave it to you guys to draw your own conclusions.

Ha! Yeah, John was not an easy one... and he must have been impossible to live with!

He was definitely his own worst enemy. He carried around this huge ball of pain, and he was probably was so attached to it–it was so much a part of him–that he didn't ever learn to let it go for very long. Sure, he had periods of clarity and relative calm, but the angel of destruction, the green-eyed goddamn straight from your heart always seemed to come back for a visit.

27 November 2014
2.09am
Avatar
meanmistermustard
Moderator



Forum Posts: 18226
Member Since:
1 May 2011
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Not sure where to place this, anyone with a better idea please let it be known and i'll get it it shifted.

shanghaidaily.com feature looks at a new book titled 'The Making of John Lennon' (to be published on the 28th November 2014) which examines John's childhood and all that happened as he grew up, and how much it contributed to his and the Beatles success.

Don’t make your love suffer insecurities, trade the baggage of self to set another one free. ('Paper Skin' - Kendall Payne)
27 November 2014
10.20pm
Avatar
Oudis
Candlestick Park
Forum Posts: 1404
Member Since:
15 May 2014
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Interesting article, @meanmistermustard, and probably a very interesting book. Thanks

Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit” (“Perhaps one day it will be a pleasure to look back on even this”; Virgil, The Aeneid, Book 1, line 203, where Aeneas says this to his men after the shipwreck that put them on the shores of Africa)

14 November 2015
5.40pm
Avatar
Ahhh Girl
sailing on a winedark open sea
Moderator


Forum Posts: 11640
Member Since:
20 August 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

In a recent Billboard interview, Paul had this to say about John and the song Help!

After two years of breakneck recording and touring, Lennon was unhappy in his marriage to his former college sweetheart and stuffed with drugs. Tasked with writing a song for The Beatles' second film, he began to erase the band's merry, dashing veneer with "Help!" "I turned up at John's house for a writing session," recalls McCartney, "and saw the opportunity to add a descant [melody in the second verse]. We finished it quite quickly; we went downstairs and sang it to John's wife at the time, Cynthia, and a journalist he was friendly with called Maureen Cleave. We were very pleased with ourselves."

Lennon later said, "I was fat and depressed, and I was crying out for help," though he also masked his misery with the song's chirpy tempo. Adds McCartney, "He didn't say, 'I'm now fat and I'm feeling miserable.' He said, 'When I was younger, so much younger than today.' In other words, he blustered his way through. We all felt the same way. But looking back on it, John was always looking for help. He had [a paranoia] that people died when he was around: His father left home when John was 3, the uncle he lived with died later, then his mother died. I think John's whole life was a cry for help."

Yes, I think he was haunted by his inner emptiness. Often. Strongly. Sadly.

The following people thank Ahhh Girl for this post:

Silly Girl
14 November 2015
6.54pm
Avatar
ewe2
Inside the beat
Candlestick Park
Forum Posts: 1479
Member Since:
8 January 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

They think now that childhood trauma brings on a slow form of PTSD, which manifests in intrusive memories, self-protective patterns, inability to trust, and a bunch of other things. Clearly John had these issues, but just as clearly it seemed to have left him with an inability to believe when he most wanted to. He certainly tried hard enough, but he was too self-aware to let go and be part of anything else for long, and he was aware of it. I think a lot of us feel trapped inside ourselves in a similar way. One thing I try to remember is that we're not simply beings or objects, we are also processes, we are always becoming. We are life expressing itself, and to be a speck is no different to being a smarter speck or a richer speck or a more talented speck or a happier speck. You can always change that point of view if you really want to. I think that was John's ultimate message, even if he couldn't manage it for himself.

I also think Paul and George had more of these complexities than given credit for just because John expressed them and they didn't, Paul particularly.

The following people thank ewe2 for this post:

Wigwam, Silly Girl, Expert Textpert, Ahhh Girl, KaleidoscopeMusic
I'm ewe2, I'm like Ringo only I'm a bassist ukulele penguin. I'm also Necko, but only on weekends.
14 November 2015
10.10pm
Avatar
Expert Textpert
In bed.
Rishikesh
Forum Posts: 2565
Member Since:
18 April 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Yes, that is true. And I've read also that childhood trauma leads to addictions in adulthood--alcohol, sex, drugs, etc. It's clear that John's search was sparked by his childhood trauma, and that, as Paul said in a recent interview, John's whole life was in some way a cry for help. I think his sexual identity was also somewhat conflicted, with the recent revelation from Yoko that he had a secret attraction for men that he never fulfilled. I'm sure this came in some degree from having an absent father, and I wonder to what degree being raised by a gay uncle was an influence (his uncle George and aunt Mimi never had sex). It's clear that with Paul, Brian, Stuart, the Maharishi, Magic Alex, Arthur Janov, and others, John was always looking for a strong male presence in his life. I think he found this in Yoko, who is very male.

The following people thank Expert Textpert for this post:

Wigwam
"This Beatles talk bores me to death." --John Lennon
15 November 2015
4.57pm
Avatar
KaleidoscopeMusic
Greenland
Ed Sullivan Show
Forum Posts: 437
Member Since:
2 November 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

@Expert Textpert That's a great psychological explanation for why John would have those feelings. But why do you perceive Yoko as being male?

Only music can save us.
15 November 2015
5.03pm
Avatar
KaleidoscopeMusic
Greenland
Ed Sullivan Show
Forum Posts: 437
Member Since:
2 November 2015
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

@Ahhh Girl That was such an awesome interview. Have you read the other recent one where they named the Beatles the best band of all time and Adele's 21 the best album? (Adele's probably my second favorite artist, coincidentally. I love her released singles on that album, but as for the Beatles.... Every single song on their albums is like a single.)

stay-on-topic I liked what Paul had to say about how John transferred his feelings into "Help!" It's such a good tactic for writers. Instead of saying straight out how insecure he felt about his life, he said, "When I was young/So much younger than today...." I love how those lyrics always manage to make me feel better. 🙂

The following people thank KaleidoscopeMusic for this post:

Ahhh Girl, Silly Girl
Only music can save us.
15 November 2015
6.14pm
Avatar
Expert Textpert
In bed.
Rishikesh
Forum Posts: 2565
Member Since:
18 April 2013
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

KaleidoscopeMusic said

@Expert Textpert That's a great psychological explanation for why John would have those feelings. But why do you perceive Yoko as being male?

There are various reasons. Each of us has male and female inside of us, and although a person is male physically he can have a female polarity in a psychological sense. The same can apply to a woman. As a man, for example, I prefer women who are more assertive and decisive, which are typically male characteristics. I myself am more on the passive side. I think this applied to John as well.

There are various hints as to Yoko's male polarity.

1. John said that he was attracted to her because she looked like a man in drag. We could take this as a silly joke, if it weren't for the fact that in Hamburg, John's favorite places to hang out were the bars where the men dressed in drag.
2. When the baby was born, Yoko went to work in the office while John spent time baking bread and caring for the baby.
3. Yoko was able to keep John in line when he got too emotional and started acting out.
4. Yoko seemed independent and self-sufficient, while John seemed driven by a need to be with Yoko, because she provided a sense of security for him.

I'm sure we could think of other examples.

The following people thank Expert Textpert for this post:

KaleidoscopeMusic
"This Beatles talk bores me to death." --John Lennon
No permission to create posts
Forum Timezone: America/Chicago

Most Users Ever Online: 597

Currently Online: Shamrock Womlbs, O Boogie, Eleanor Macca
44 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

meanmistermustard: 18225

Ahhh Girl: 11640

Starr Shine?: 11320

Zig: 8207

Silly Girl: 7473

parlance: 7095

mr. Sun king coming together: 6980

Mr. Kite: 6132

trcanberra: 5776

Ron Nasty: 5299

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 87

Members: 3468

Moderators: 4

Admins: 2

Forum Stats:

Groups: 3

Forums: 42

Topics: 3915

Posts: 216020

Newest Members:

mjhaman, Norman, Nicki222, djbuckii, nandonami

Moderators: Ahhh Girl: 11640, meanmistermustard: 18225, Zig: 8207, Joe: 4448

Administrators: Joe: 4448, Ellie: 3

Members Birthdays
sp_BirthdayIcon
Today: DorisHicks
Upcoming: Ron Nasty, GeorgeLuvr