Question about John's assassination | John Lennon | Fab forum

Please consider registering
Guest

Log In Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —

  

— Match —

   

— Forum Options —

   

Minimum search word length is 4 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

Question about John's assassination
4 January 2013
8.37pm
Funny Paper
America
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 2021
Member Since:
1 November 2012
Offline

I don't know too much about John's assassination, and his assassin, but I distinctly remember that Chapman claimed that he waited for literally hours in front of the Dakota apartments for John to return -- he saw John leave early in the evening (?) then he waited for hours until John (and Yoko) returned late at night.  Then -- this is my question -- did Chapman claim that the main reason he was set off to kill John was because John slighted him, arrogantly treated him like a "nobody" when he asked for his autograph? 

Of course, Chapman was a lunatic schizophrenic, but that doesn't mean little things like that could not trigger his behavior; and if so, it's terribly tragic to think that if John had just decided, in that moment, to be friendly and personable, rather than rude, he might still be alive today...

 

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...
4 January 2013
9.00pm
SatanHimself
Hades-on-Leith
Candlestick Park
Forum Posts: 697
Member Since:
16 August 2012
Offline

There has been a LOT written about this.  As much as I don't like to go to Wikipedia, if you look up MDC there it gives you the basic thumbnail of the motive and series of events.

But Lennon happily signed MDC's album that day.  His deeper motives were more disturbed, and sadly at that point Lennon's comings and goings were pretty well known to fans in New York (some say courtesy of Yoko making it well-known for her own self-promotion.  I'll leave you to be the judge of that).  That made Lennon an easier target.

E is for 'Ergent'.
4 January 2013
9.02pm
Ron Nasty
"Where have you been?" "I'm not telling you..."
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 3101
Member Since:
17 December 2012
Offline

It was Chapman's intention to shoot Lennon from the moment he set off to New York from Hawaii. While he did express that he had moments of doubts along the way, his journey was only going to end one way. When Lennon left the Dakota that evening, he stopped and autographed Chapman's copy of Double Fantasy, photographed in the act of doing so. Chapman may well have shot him then, were there less people around. But knowing Lennon had gone out, he knew he had to return, and waited for his moment.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
4 January 2013
9.20pm
DrBeatle
Boston
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 1419
Member Since:
29 November 2012
Offline

Apparently, he'd made a trip to NYC in October to do it but got cold feet and went back to Hawaii.

And how about his intereaction with James Taylor in a NYC subway station on December 7, 1980 when he accosted Taylor and rambled on about how he was going to "do something with John." Creepy as hell for Taylor, especially considering what happened the next night (which, supposedly, he heard happen as he lived in the building next to the Dakota and he heard the shots).

"I know you, you know me; one thing I can tell you is you got to be free!"

 

Please Visit My Website, The Rock and Roll Chemist

Twitter: @blackbookblur

 

4 January 2013
10.15pm
Funny Paper
America
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 2021
Member Since:
1 November 2012
Offline

SatanHimself said
There has been a LOT written about this.  As much as I don't like to go to Wikipedia, if you look up MDC there it gives you the basic thumbnail of the motive and series of events.

But Lennon happily signed MDC's album that day.  His deeper motives were more disturbed, and sadly at that point Lennon's comings and goings were pretty well known to fans in New York (some say courtesy of Yoko making it well-known for her own self-promotion.  I'll leave you to be the judge of that).  That made Lennon an easier target.

Well, Chapman being a paranoid schizophrenic, he could have imagined that John was rude, when an impartial observer watching the interaction would say, "no, he's acting friendly".  In that case, the victim (John) may have no way of (non-violently) preventing whatever caused Chapman to flake out.  But I'm not so sure that paranoid schizophrenics cannot be manipulated, mollified, whatever, by saying "the right things".

 

 

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...
4 January 2013
10.21pm
Funny Paper
America
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 2021
Member Since:
1 November 2012
Offline

DrBeatle said
Apparently, he'd made a trip to NYC in October to do it but got cold feet and went back to Hawaii.

And how about his intereaction with James Taylor in a NYC subway station on December 7, 1980 when he accosted Taylor and rambled on about how he was going to "do something with John." Creepy as hell for Taylor, especially considering what happened the next night (which, supposedly, he heard happen as he lived in the building next to the Dakota and he heard the shots).

Yep -- I saw that recent interview with JT where he described all that.  Apparently, the day before in the subway station, JT thought Chapman was just a typical loonie, but probably harmless.

Another thing I recall reading about Chapman is that he idolized John, then became deeply disappointed by what he perceived to be John "selling out" and living in a rich mansion -- as though that wealthy lifestyle contradicted John's lofty "hippie" principles. So in Chapman's mind, John "betrayed" those principles.

In Chapman's interview with Larry King just a few years ago, Chapman seemed perfectly normal and rational -- and no, he did not seem medicated by pharmaceuticals.  I can't help but suspect he isn't as clinically crazy as he (and his lawyers) would like us to believe.

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...
4 January 2013
10.58pm
Into the Sky with Diamonds
New York
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 1302
Member Since:
10 August 2011
Offline

Funny Paper said, "In Chapman's interview with Larry King just a few years ago, Chapman seemed perfectly normal and rational — and no, he did not seem medicated by pharmaceuticals.  I can't help but suspect he isn't as clinically crazy as he (and his lawyers) would like us to believe."

Moreover, while in jail Chapman wrote a letter to an attorney indicating that he'd found Jesus.

If he is crazy, then he's forgiven to the extent that he's a madman.

But if he was never crazy and found Jesus, do you forgive him?

"Into the Sky with Diamonds" (the Beatles and the Race to the Moon – a history)
4 January 2013
11.01pm
Ben Ramon
Candlestick Park
Forum Posts: 619
Member Since:
26 March 2012
Offline

He was already a close associate of Jesus when he did the deed- I read that part of the reason he killed John in the first place was outrage at the "bigger than Jesus" comments and some of the anti-religion stuff on the Plastic Ono Band album.

SHUT UP - Paulie's talkin'
4 January 2013
11.07pm
EDSLocklear
Hunting Ghosts
Decca
Forum Posts: 95
Member Since:
14 December 2012
Offline

I think Chapman said he killed John "to gain his fame" in an interview. 

 

 

"I'd tell her I love her, but she'd only reject me in the end and I'd be frustrated. That's why I play guitar; it's my active compensatory factor" -Ringo said something like this once, I changed it up a bit.
4 January 2013
11.53pm
unknown
Nowhere Land
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 1233
Member Since:
5 November 2011
Offline
10

He killed John because John was a phony, and he also said he did it to gain John's fame.

All living things must abide by the laws of the shape they inhabit
4 January 2013
11.55pm
DrBeatle
Boston
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 1419
Member Since:
29 November 2012
Offline
11

^those are all reasons he gave for doing it. Clearly the guy was off his rocker.

"I know you, you know me; one thing I can tell you is you got to be free!"

 

Please Visit My Website, The Rock and Roll Chemist

Twitter: @blackbookblur

 

5 January 2013
12.15am
unknown
Nowhere Land
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 1233
Member Since:
5 November 2011
Offline
12

Well, yeah. I don't see how any sane person could just kill some stranger like that, and then sit down and read a book like nothing happened. He wasn't crazy enough to not know what he was doing though, or else John would have been dead he first time that guy went to New York to kill him.

All living things must abide by the laws of the shape they inhabit
5 January 2013
1.39am
meanmistermustard
Moderator



Forum Posts: 9948
Member Since:
1 May 2011
Offline

 

 

Chapman believed that John was a sell out and a phony, i think it got to the point where he began believing that he was John (If i remember correctly he would spend hours listening continuously to beatle and John solo recordings over and over in the months and years up to the assassination), and also harboured resentment or anger at his "Bigger Than Jesus" statement from 1966. He was also heavily influenced by 'The Catcher in The Rye' by J D Salinger - a simple google search will more details up. Im not sure of the order of development but Chapman also wanted to become famous, he was a loner and had few friends in school or in life, and decided that one way to do so was to murder someone famous, he then wrote up a hit list of numerous stars and John was selected, one reason being lack of bodyguards. All of these brought it all to a senseless and horrific outcome.

Chapman travelled a few times from Hawaii, once bottling out of it, but was fully determined come December 1980. Im going completely from memory but i also think he told his girlfriend or wife some coded message over the phone in the days before what he was going to do but wasnt believed or understood.

 

Note: For some reason ive written out what i remember happened on the 8th December, cant explain why. It might be disturbing to some so please dont read on if you think it will to you. Apologies if you find any of this upsetting.heartapple01

 

As said above by others that night (8th December) Chapman went to the Dakota and waited for John to come out of the building heading for the recording studios with Yoko, Chapman thrust a copy of Double Fantasty at him as he passed and John signed it before heading off (a picture of this was taken and is out there as is the record which has been auctioned a few times). This was the first time they ever met. After the recording session concluded, they had been working on the track 'Walking on Thin Ice', John and Yoko were invited to a restaurant but declined and headed straight for home and Sean. They arrived at 10:50pm, got out of the car, Yoko in front and John following, Chapman called out Johns name and as John turned shot him 6 times. John was carried to a car due to the extent of his injuries and when asked if he knew who he was replied "yes". There was nothing that could have been done to save John despite the efforts by those at the scene and at the hospital.

The murder was totally premeditated and Chapman wanted to be caught, hence he remained at the scene after carrying it out reading 'The Catcher in The Rye. He was asked by someone at the scene before the police arrived if he realised what he had done and replied words to the effect of "Yes, i just shot John Lennon".

I believe most of this is right but im open to be corrected as its been a long time since i read up on it. There have been numerous books and documentaries about what happened looking at it from all angles, the only one ive ever read that goes into the background of the assassination is 'The Murder Casebook Files" which sticks to the facts and doesnt dish out opinion or take sides. I now wont read books or watch documentaries as its far too disturbing. Its horrid to type or even think about.

 

John was a legend and amazing, his music and words remain powerful and will continue to stand the test of time and influence many lifes.

My favourite John song

He told us not to get overwhelmed by grief and whatever thoughts we have... to keep them happy, because any thoughts we have of him will travel to him wherever he is. (John Lennon - 27/8/67)
5 January 2013
2.43am
DrBeatle
Boston
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 1419
Member Since:
29 November 2012
Offline
14

Another creepy subplot is that, when waiting for John to come back from the studio (after he signed the LP), he spoke to Sean and his nanny as they walked back into the Dakota and even touched Sean's hand and said something to effect that he was "a good boy." Creepy as fuck, and I don't believe one bit Chapman was insane...he was nuts but he was completely in control...he wouldn't have gotten cold feet in October and still had doubts about whether to do it or not right up until he did.

 

I've often daydreamed that if I could go back in time to change bad historic events, this would be one of the ones I'd change.

"I know you, you know me; one thing I can tell you is you got to be free!"

 

Please Visit My Website, The Rock and Roll Chemist

Twitter: @blackbookblur

 

5 January 2013
5.30am
unknown
Nowhere Land
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 1233
Member Since:
5 November 2011
Offline
15

Wow, really?! If you could go back in time to stop historic events you would stop Mark Chapman from killing John Lennon? How about the holocaust, Mao Zedong, or 911?!?! John Lennon was one person, and his death really wasn't that bad. It was tragic, yes, but bad? Not so much. He could have been brought to the hospital and gotten chest compressions and suffered for hours before he croaked, but he died pretty fast. His death was way more painful for his family, and Yoko especially for having watched it. I could be wrong, but I don't think he suffered very much.

All living things must abide by the laws of the shape they inhabit
5 January 2013
8.55am
Clare
A Beginning
Forum Posts: 1
Member Since:
5 January 2013
Offline
16

If you'd like a good overview, with care and understanding, about the assassination and what's known and not known, try the interview of me and one other, recently, on Dr. Jim Fetzer's eclectic radio show, The Real Deal. The archives are at http://radiofetzer.blogspot.com

The show is Dec. 7, 2012. Right-click green interviewee names.

One note: the other interviewee (in the 2nd hour) misunderstood a point I was making about the handyman the police originally suspected. Here is my reply:

What I actually meant and didn't express fully, was that Perdomo (the doorman) could have been the handler for Chapman on the scene and backup, while the handyman could have shot John closer than Perdomo and * still shot into the glass doors well, unlike the scenario they posited for Chapman. * I was suggesting he could have exited the alcove for the service elevator (across from the glass doorway entrance), walked forward and PAST John, then spun around at close range and shot BACK at John, not forward. It gives a similar trajectory to what Perdomo would have had, but closer to John.

This would mean he had not shot forward to the entrance of the tunnel, but backward toward the glass doors. The other interviewee (in the 2nd hour) thought I'd meant he'd merely walked forward.

The handyman came in as a possibility because the policeman thought he was the murderer at first, and so I was figuring out how that might have worked, maybe even better than with Perdomo, which also works better than Chapman, certainly Chapman in the final official version, where he does not move towards the glass doors. But of course, the handyman could be a total mistake by the police officer, for he'd not likely suspect Perdomo either, though Perdomo could also have been, if he was indeed also the head of the Anti-Castro Cuban killers of Operation 40.

Also see 4:07 forward in 'The Messenger' documentary (not from 1969 as poster on Youtube claims) . The Police press conference says Chapman MOVED -- moved closer to John and shot near the glass doors. All Newspaper reports, however, have him stationary and shooting across the arch tunnel they were in, shooting from Lennon's rear right, forward and a bit to Chapman's right, only 5 feet away, yet shooting through Lennon's left and *somehow into those glass doors far to Chapman's right without moving.*

The story changed from the police press conference where Chapman moves, to the official story and newspapers at the same time period as the press conference. Why? To distract from the glass doors the press conference actually does account for better. Either way, Chapman wasn't likely the shooter, but the unmoving Chapman is even less in the correct position to shoot John into those glass doors.

Perdomo OR a man passing John in the dark and spinning around at closer range (such as the handyman): either of them would be to John's left & could have done the same shots.

For a great page on the shots themselves, with a Cat-scan top view of the likely trajectories -- though tone of blog is skeptical to cynical at the end of the blog:
http://xdell.blogspot.ca/2010/.....ction.html

 

5 January 2013
9.23am
Ron Nasty
"Where have you been?" "I'm not telling you..."
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 3101
Member Since:
17 December 2012
Offline

Just to warn anyone about the above. Just listened to the beginning few minutes. If you're into conspiracy theories it might be worth a listen, and I'll admit I didn't listen far enough to hear just what their conspiracy theory is. CIA? IRA? EMI? BB King? Who knows? Who cares? (Can you dig it?) I'm not big on conspiracy theories. Seems for every event that happens, there have to be people screaming, "THEY'RE LYING TO YOU!" I tend to go down the line of s*** things happen and don't need to be part of some global conspiracy to fool the masses about what the dark powers who really run the world are up to. JFK's the only one I give a half nod to, since then it seems if you can spin a conspiracy then a conspiracy will be spun. Isn't it strange how a question is asked about John's assassination at 8:37pm on the 4th January and just over twelve hours later we have someone posting for the first time ever on the site, suggesting it might not be Chapman who done it? Are the conspiracy theorists monitoring the internet to find where they can next sow their seeds of doubt? Tempted to report above post but I will leave others to decide.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
5 January 2013
1.01pm
meanmistermustard
Moderator



Forum Posts: 9948
Member Since:
1 May 2011
Offline
18

Sorry but that whole conspiracy theory is bullshit.

He told us not to get overwhelmed by grief and whatever thoughts we have... to keep them happy, because any thoughts we have of him will travel to him wherever he is. (John Lennon - 27/8/67)
5 January 2013
1.06pm
Ron Nasty
"Where have you been?" "I'm not telling you..."
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 3101
Member Since:
17 December 2012
Offline
19

Glad to see the first response isn't someone saying we should listen to the conspiracy theorists.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
5 January 2013
1.24pm
DrBeatle
Boston
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 1419
Member Since:
29 November 2012
Offline
20

unknown said
Wow, really?! If you could go back in time to stop historic events you would stop Mark Chapman from killing John Lennon? How about the holocaust, Mao Zedong, or 911?!?! John Lennon was one person, and his death really wasn't that bad. It was tragic, yes, but bad? Not so much. He could have been brought to the hospital and gotten chest compressions and suffered for hours before he croaked, but he died pretty fast. His death was way more painful for his family, and Yoko especially for having watched it. I could be wrong, but I don't think he suffered very much.

I said *ONE* of them. I'd also try more important ones, obviously...JFK's assassination, the rise of Hitler, Lenin/Stalin, Mao, etc. But that was just a throwaway comment I made, I don't think it's worth hijacking this thread over.

Back on topic, the conspiracy theories about John's murder are a bunch of BS. Supposedly Sean even believes the US government had his dad killed, which is pathetic if true.

 

"I know you, you know me; one thing I can tell you is you got to be free!"

 

Please Visit My Website, The Rock and Roll Chemist

Twitter: @blackbookblur

 

Forum Timezone: Europe/London

Most Users Ever Online: 597

Currently Online: Beatleva, Hey Jude !
50 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

meanmistermustard: 9948

mr. Sun king coming together: 6916

parlance: 5216

Ahhh Girl: 5193

mithveaen: 4651

Annadog40: 4333

Zig: 4223

Mr. Kite: 3841

Ron Nasty: 3101

fabfouremily: 2931

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 88

Members: 2633

Moderators: 4

Admins: 2

Forum Stats:

Groups: 3

Forums: 34

Topics: 3154

Posts: 136191

Newest Members: Blockin, BobGreaves, idiglove, PtakieChan, TheNumberNine

Moderators: Ahhh Girl: 5193, meanmistermustard: 9948, Zig: 4223, Joe: 3465

Administrators: Joe: 3465, Ellie: 1

Members Birthdays
Today: YouLoseAndIWin
Upcoming: YouKnowMyName