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John's violent streak...
29 May 2011
9.44pm
MeanMrsMustard
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John wasn't a whole lot better before '68. 

If I seem to act unkind, it's only me, it's not my mind that is confusing things.

29 May 2011
9.48pm
JFKin60
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JFKin60 said:

I forgot to mention that Lennon also lost his elite commercial status in the 70s because of his high regard for himself, that allowed him to force his wife into the recording studio onto the other three Beatles and producers/technicians, not to mention post their nude bodies onto album covers and embarrassed Beatles nation with other stunts like his useless bed-in-for-peace and other childlike public stunts.

Yoko did not break up the Beatles. John did.

Well, let's see...

I'll throw out 10 pre-68 songs and you match them with post-68 songs...

(Either songs he did alone or had the higher hand in).

A Day In The Life, Help, Ticket To Ride, You've Got to Hide Your Love Away, I'm a Loser, In My Life, She Loves You, I Want To Hold Your Hand, A Hard Days Night, Eight Days A Week (and I could easily name 10 more).

"If George Harrison can have a triple album, why can't I have a double album?"–Yoko Ono
29 May 2011
9.50pm
JFKin60
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I'm getting the feeling this site doesn't want me anymore...

The math question at the bottom was 475 x 251=

LOL.

"If George Harrison can have a triple album, why can't I have a double album?"–Yoko Ono
29 May 2011
9.58pm
mr. Sun king coming together
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Let's see, lots to say. First, his father came back to him AFTER he became famous. Not before. That's scummy.
Secondly, Yoko gave him loads of creativity and was the direct inspiration to every single one of his White Album songs except for Good Night and Cry Baby Cry. Thridly, Paul (who I presume is your favourite) indulged us as well with his McCartney and McCartney 2 albums. Fourthly, Lennon lost his commercial status because he wasn't living up to the Beatles standard. All 4 of them lost it at some point before 1975. Also, I'm a fan of Yoko because she believed in peace, which was and is in short supply. And lastly, Lennon was more inconsistent before 1968. He had highs (Day In The Life, Walrus, TNK, SFF), but he had so lows (Doctor Robert, Run For Your Life, It's Only Love), whereas he lost the peaks and valleys and made consistently great albums (except Some Time) for his entire solo career.

I tried to think of something powerful and moving… and failed.  "You were given a choice between war and dishonor - you chose dishonor, and you shall have war" - Winston Churchill
29 May 2011
10.05pm
MeanMrsMustard
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1. JFK: You know that you can use multiple quotes in a single post, right?

2. John didn't break up the Beatles. The Beatles broke up the Beatles. They are amazing, but not something with a long shelf life. When you have the personalities that the Beatles had in a group, the group becomes pretty unstable. 

3. Didn't Paul write "Eight Days A Week?" I seem to vaguely remember from somewhere that it was one of the few exceptions to the "He who wrote it sang it" rule. 

If I seem to act unkind, it's only me, it's not my mind that is confusing things.

29 May 2011
11.44pm
GniknuS
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Boy this has spiraled out if control and I apologize for that, yes I was being a bit rude with my comment, and I am sorry JFK. But you did refer to my taste in music as manure, so I was a bit irritated. Unfortunately, I believe I have a pretty excellent and unique taste in music so I'll defend it when someone says something.
But I believe John was great both before and with Yoko.

I sat on a rug, biding my time, drinking her wine
29 May 2011
11.55pm
mr. Sun king coming together
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look at his solo career. His best 3 albums was recorded with Yoko as co-producer (DF, POB, Imagine). I mean, he made great stuff without her, but he wasn't in any way creatively inhibited by her.

I tried to think of something powerful and moving… and failed.  "You were given a choice between war and dishonor - you chose dishonor, and you shall have war" - Winston Churchill
30 May 2011
1.56pm
Zig
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This topic does lend itself to emotional responses no matter how you feel about it. So, I read the original question again;

What did you all think of John Lennon's violent streak, especially toward women?

As a Beatles fan, I always have a hard time explaining this stuff to others.

 

It got me to thinking about the use of the phrase violent "streak". To me, the word streak indicates two to four incidents in a row deemed to be violent. From what I have read here and elsewhere, I got the sense that violence was a pattern with John, not just a streak. If "streak" was used by JFKin60 to draw attention to John's violent "side", that would make more sense to me.

Let's face it, we all know the man was no angel - he knew it just as well as anyone. That in no way is me blowing off what he did or did not do. As I said upthread, every single human on the planet is flawed. Some, more than others.

This topic also made me wonder who suffered more as a result of his actions; the seemingly endless list of "victims" (real or fabricated), the other 3 Beatles? Beatles fans? John himself? We could debate that for years. I'd rather not, but knock yourselves out (figuratively, please).

Last thought - JFKin60, I don't think for one moment you have a hard time explaining this stuff to anyone. Your opinions are welcome here.

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30 May 2011
6.49pm
JFKin60
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mr. Sun king coming together said:

Or on Abbey Road, or anything he did on Plastic Ono Band, Imagine, Double Fantasy, or anything he did after I Am The Walrus? Give me a break. I mean, I don't like all his out there songs, but I respect them for artistic merit. I don't especially like Me and My Monkey but I respect it as it shows how he was feeling at the time.

He was great from 68-70, but all I'm saying is he as GREATER from 63-68.

I wasn't into songs about how John was feeling. I wouldn't have wanted to hear a song of his with lyrics about him having the flu or a hangover or something. He was doing way too much of that.

"If George Harrison can have a triple album, why can't I have a double album?"–Yoko Ono
30 May 2011
6.53pm
JFKin60
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Thanks Zig.

I try not to be dull..Ha ha.

As for my use of the word streak, it kinda meant more a streak as in something in his DNA or character or the like.

I've recently quit defending Lennon after decades of defending him. Several of these fairly recent books have laid out what he was really like throughout much of his life. I think he turned it around toward the end, but, wow, did he have some apologizing to do!

The most nauseating aspect of many Beatles books, to me, is how so many --like Yoko, Paul--try to defend him no matter what.

"If George Harrison can have a triple album, why can't I have a double album?"–Yoko Ono
30 May 2011
7.04pm
JFKin60
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MeanMrsMustard said:

1. JFK: You know that you can use multiple quotes in a single post, right?

2. John didn't break up the Beatles. The Beatles broke up the Beatles. They are amazing, but not something with a long shelf life. When you have the personalities that the Beatles had in a group, the group becomes pretty unstable. 

3. Didn't Paul write "Eight Days A Week?" I seem to vaguely remember from somewhere that it was one of the few exceptions to the "He who wrote it sang it" rule. 

1. No, I didn't.

2. John DEFINITELY broke up the Beatles and when he told them in his pathetic "you're daft" fit, they were all shocked. Paul, especially, wanted to keep them together. They should have just tossed John out and added Pete Ham of Badfinger. It would have still been a phenomenal group with all the Harrison, McCartney and Ham songs they could have thrown together for at least five more years.

3. I'm not totally sure on 8 Days. I just assumed John wrote most of that with his "formula music."

"If George Harrison can have a triple album, why can't I have a double album?"–Yoko Ono
30 May 2011
7.08pm
mr. Sun king coming together
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Paul wrote 8 days a Week. Certain.

I tried to think of something powerful and moving… and failed.  "You were given a choice between war and dishonor - you chose dishonor, and you shall have war" - Winston Churchill
30 May 2011
7.31pm
GniknuS
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But you have to ask yourself why they would defend him if they were two of his biggest "victims." Maybe it's because as violent and angry as John could be, his love and compassion always outweighed his negative aspects. There's a quote from Ringo out there somewhere where he says that John had the biggest heart and was the most caring of any of the four, and then Ringo said "but he could also be crazy." That's Ringo talking, not some secondhand biographer so I put a lot of trust in what he's saying.

The Beatles broke themselves up, perhaps John wanted to get out the most so he was extremely proactive in ensuring their demise, but George didn't want to be in that group any more than John did because they were, as George says in Anthology, inhibited within the confines of being Beatles.

I think John was pretty stale as a songwriter before Yoko came along, at least in 67. He obviously has many great songs from that year and some would consider it his peak, but his dull, lifeless voice in Mr. Kite and Good Morning Good Morning and his lack of good material outside of Walrus on MMT tells me that he was bored as a songwriter. So Yoko came along and challenged him and he wrote some of his best material with her influence. I think that Plastic Ono Band was his peak as a songwriter because it's the most true to who he was.

So it's all opinion but with an enigma like John there will be many different opinions and none are necessarily incorrect.

I sat on a rug, biding my time, drinking her wine
30 May 2011
7.36pm
JFKin60
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John was almost as disappointing as Paul in the 70s. Had he not given his soul to Yoko he probably would have been fine. She was beyond atrocious and a pitiful human being.

Clearly, John and Paul needed each other to keep each other in line.

"If George Harrison can have a triple album, why can't I have a double album?"–Yoko Ono
30 May 2011
7.40pm
JFKin60
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mr. Sun king coming together said:

Paul wrote 8 days a Week. Certain.

Really?

And how did you come up with this?

Everywhere I've read, John wrote it. And he sang it.

"If George Harrison can have a triple album, why can't I have a double album?"–Yoko Ono
30 May 2011
7.45pm
mr. Sun king coming together
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This very site, quoting Paul himself.

I tried to think of something powerful and moving… and failed.  "You were given a choice between war and dishonor - you chose dishonor, and you shall have war" - Winston Churchill
30 May 2011
7.48pm
JFKin60
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mr. Sun king coming together said:

This very site, quoting Paul himself.

Can you show me the link?

"If George Harrison can have a triple album, why can't I have a double album?"–Yoko Ono
30 May 2011
7.51pm
Von Bontee
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It seems to me that most of John's violent episodes were exacerbated by alcohol abuse, pretty much. And I don't think explaining them is the same as excusing them.

One day, a tape-op got a tape on backwards, he went to play it, and it was all "Neeeradno-undowarrroom" and it was "Wow! Sounds Indian!" -- Paul McCartney
30 May 2011
8.02pm
mr. Sun king coming together
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Von Bontee said:

It seems to me that most of John's violent episodes were exacerbated by alcohol abuse, pretty much. And I don't think explaining them is the same as excusing them.

My point exactly. He wasn't a saint (far from it), but most of know or will know someone like him.

I tried to think of something powerful and moving… and failed.  "You were given a choice between war and dishonor - you chose dishonor, and you shall have war" - Winston Churchill
30 May 2011
8.33pm
JFKin60
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mr. Sun king coming together said:

Von Bontee said:

It seems to me that most of John's violent episodes were exacerbated by alcohol abuse, pretty much. And I don't think explaining them is the same as excusing them.

My point exactly. He wasn't a saint (far from it), but most of know or will know someone like him.

I'm just waiting for Paul McCartney to come out and admit, "Sure, John murdered four people in Hamburg once, but he had a big heart...."

And then a geek like Sun King will say, "See what a great guy John was."

"If George Harrison can have a triple album, why can't I have a double album?"–Yoko Ono
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