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Help Oppose John Lennon's Killer from getting Parole
19 August 2012
4.46pm
mr. Sun king coming together
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LTJX said 
"As much as I love John (he's my hero, for goodness' sake!), he was nobody special in the grand scheme of things. No one is. "
With fans like you, who needs enemies?  John Lennon was indeed somebody very special in the grand scheme of things, and you are a blind fool not to see that.  When saying nobody is special, please speak only for yourself.

In a legal, spiritual, and rational way, the fact MDC killed John Lennon is beside the point. John Lennon is nothing special in this situation - there is no two tiered law saying "if you murder John doofle, it's 20 years before release. If you kill John Lennon, you're never getting out". There's nothing like that. We can love John all the f*ck we want, but don't be a fucking asshole to my friend.

I tried to think of something powerful and moving… and failed.  "You were given a choice between war and dishonor - you chose dishonor, and you shall have war" - Winston Churchill
19 August 2012
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Dipsy
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minime said 
I agree with many of the posters; John Lennon was a human being, a precious one to so many people, but when it comes down to it, his life was just as worthy as any other's, no more, no less.

Thank you, MiniMe, for putting into more decipherable words what I was trying to say earlier:

Dipsy said 
As much as I love John (he's my hero, for goodness' sake!), he was nobody special in the grand scheme of things. No one is. Everybody lives, everybody dies: it's just that some--like John--go more quickly than others.

 

Perhaps LTJX will be able to better understand what I was trying to say by reading your post. apple01

 

vonbontee said 
Honestly, not that I like the guy or am clamoring for his release, I think that after 30 years he's paid his debt to society. There are many, many murderers who serve less time than this guy has; and also many, many currently incarcerated serial murderers and rapists whom I would sooner petition not to be paroled. And also many as-yet UN-encarcerated bastards more deserving of Chapman's cell than himself. Just because he killed someone we all loved doesn't make him more evil than all other murderers; in fact based on sheer numerics, it makes him LESS evil than your average multiple murderer. I really don't think there's much chance he'll kill again. ESPECIALLY if "someone put him up to this" (an absolutely ludicrous conspiracy IMO.)

Also, I agree with Dipsy: "With fans like you, who needs enemies?" certainly was a pretty unnecessary and silly remark, LTJX. (But all the same, welcome to the forum!)

I made this exact point in my original post. It's great to see someone who can relate, Von. a-hard-days-night-ringo-10And thank you so much for that last part of your post, my friend. It really means a lot. apple01

 

unknown said 
LTJX said

It seems that Chapman wants to get out of prison and that this will make him happy.  For that reason alone, I would always oppose any freedom for Chapman (ever) because I don't want him to be happy.  And, Yoko Ono has testified that Crapman's release would cause her great distress and fear, and there is another very good reason for keeping Chapman in prison.

Why do you care if Chapman's happy or not? Does it affect your life in such a great way that you wouldn't be able to stand that? What Yoko said is not good reason to keep him locked up. That's natural that she would feel that way, but he got who he wanted to get, so she has nothing to worry about.

This is an excellent point, Unknown. To be honest, I don't think even the die-hard fan would be disturbed by the thought that John's murderer would be a new addition to everyday society. It would be almost like an out-of-sight, out-of-mind kind of thing: once the original hype of knowing MDC is out of jail has passed, I think most people would be able to care less. Why? Because it's not affecting them. It's not like people still obsess over the fact that Casey Anthony--guilty or not--is roaming the streets. Chapman would most likely undergo the same experience. The only people who should maybe be disturbed by it are John's friends and family, not his fans. Fans were about as distant as the moon to him: he always knew they were there; but unless he looked, they could be--even for the smallest of moments--ignored.

 

unknown said 
LTJX said

He went quickly only because Mark Crapman helped him on his way with 5 rounds of lethal hollow-point bullets - Chapman wanted to make sure and kill his target, in the same way we should make sure that he dies as a prisoner, never having been released.  Chapman decided that the world did not need John Lennon or his music, art and writing for the last several decades of his life.  He had absolutely no right to decide this, so he must pay the highest penalty that society can offer.

Why should we be the ones to decide whether or not he gets released, his death didn't have any effect on me (and probably not you either). I honestly don't care either way, so I don't get why other people would. Did you know John personally, because if the answer is yes then that's a lot different. Also, there's much more to John than his art. Who cares about the music we missed out on? Chapman killed a father and husband, the musician that died doesn't matter nearly as much.

Beautiful ideas, Unknown. apple01

I really doubt Mark ever will be released, and I think that's a little sad. Marky killed (didn't even torture him first or anything!) one person over thirty years ago when he was just twenty-five years old. That's still relatively young, and it's sad how just being in the wrong mindset could ruin the rest of your life like that. The act of Chapman killing an innocent person without justification is terrible, but that doesn't make Mark any less of a person than myself. He did it out of insanity, and having him isolated from the world would only make that worse, I would imagine.

Exactly. It's like saying that a dalmatian puppy--born without spots--is any less of a dalmatian: a man whose brain is damaged--scarred by mental illness and insanity--is no less of a man. He may be what we consider an evil man, but he is a man just the same.

 

mr. Sun king coming together said
LTJX said 
"As much as I love John (he's my hero, for goodness' sake!), he was nobody special in the grand scheme of things. No one is. "
With fans like you, who needs enemies?  John Lennon was indeed somebody very special in the grand scheme of things, and you are a blind fool not to see that.  When saying nobody is special, please speak only for yourself.

In a legal, spiritual, and rational way, the fact MDC killed John Lennon is beside the point. John Lennon is nothing special in this situation - there is no two tiered law saying "if you murder John doofle, it's 20 years before release. If you kill John Lennon, you're never getting out". There's nothing like that. We can love John all the f*ck we want, but don't be a fucking asshole to my friend.

An idea again expressed in my original post. Thank you, Sun King, for giving a more concrete example of what I was trying to express: perhaps LTJX will be able to better and more easily understand. ahdn_george_08And thank you even more for that last part of your post. apple01

"I'm not going to change the way I look or the way I feel to conform to anything. I've always been a freak. So I've been a freak all my life and I have to live with that, you know? I'm just one of those people."
20 August 2012
6.05am
vonbontee
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meanmistermustard said

One of my biggest issues with the release of Chapman is that he would inevitably profit from Johns death. I mentioned it before but the media will do anything and pay handsomely for 'the exclusive', for his side of the story.

Actually, there's a law in the USA making it illegal for convicted felons to profit from their crimes.

I just want to play. I’d like to think I could work opposite Sinatra, B.B. King, the Beatles, or a polka band... - Jazz musician Rahsaan Roland Kirk, 1967
20 August 2012
6.11am
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And anyways - there are many layers of requirements the Parole board could slap on MDC's probation (I have to presume he's be put on probation after release?) to make absolutely sure he doesn't stay in the news, or otherwise stay relevant - and anyways, he'd never be able to leave the country, so he couldn't leave and live in a place where such a law doesn't exist.

I tried to think of something powerful and moving… and failed.  "You were given a choice between war and dishonor - you chose dishonor, and you shall have war" - Winston Churchill
20 August 2012
2.43pm
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Dipsy said

I find your attitude in this particular excerpt extraordinarily rude, and I am quite hurt: not by the things you said, but rather by the way in which you went about saying them. I thought I posted my original opinion in a manner that would be respectable towards every poster in the forum (no matter their stance on this touchy issue), so is it too much to ask that I can receive the same respect?

 

You are correct about my being rude and I apologize for the personal insult.  But your remark that John Lennon was "nothing special in the grand scheme..." was just so very, very wrong in my opinion that my temper took control momentarily.

 

You may not understand exactly how much John Lennon was feared by important elements of the right-wing establishment (and remember that the Reagan administration had just won an election and would take office the following month).  Powerful leaders of the military-industrial establishment had not liked (to put it mildly) what they saw as the foreigner Lennon's interference in public support for the Vietnam War, and they wanted no such trouble when Reagan's people took control and started flexing American military muscle abroad (El Salvador, Nicaragua, Grenada, Libya, Panama and eventually Iraq).  

 

Lennon and the Beatles had a well proven ability to bring millions of passionate supporters into the streets on short notice and with just a few words, or even with no words - just by their appearance, and this is just the kind of raw personal power to mobilize a society that high level politicians fear more than you may imagine. It's the very power that politicians have always sought for themselves, but rarely, if ever, achieved.  The FBI and major law enforcement authorities were known to have been especially shocked by the Shea Stadium spectacle.

 

I'm not saying I can prove there was a conspiracy to do any of this, but it is a documented fact that the FBI had an active file on John Lennon, and that they were tracking him very closely as a possible "alien" (i.e. non-U.S. citizen) "subversive".  Someone had thoroughly bugged John and Yoko's home at the Dakota.  John even complained about "technicians" who were always dropping by the Dakota residence to "adjust" the telephone equipment and wiring, even though John had not reported any problems with it(?).  John specifically said that if he or Yoko ever died under any kind of suspicious circumstances, that he hoped his fans would not be naive about who might have been behind it, and would consider and investigate possible higher level involvement by elements of the CIA, FBI or U.S. military.

 

21 August 2012
1.50am
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In my opinion, when someone like MDC, commits a very calculated murder of another human (whether it be John Lennon, John Doe or Jane Doe), he can never rightfully "pay his debt to society" and should never be allowed to enjoy the freedom of life outside of prison.  This is obviously just my opinion and I do understand many of the views expressed above.  He is obviously mentally unstable and has proven himself to be violent.  No one in society should be at the risk of another "episode" from MDC should he go off his meds (I am assuming he is on them to keep him balanced) and starts reading another book like Catcher in the Rye. 

 

This is a man who carefully planned the murder of John Lennon.  He knew who John was and what he meant to the world.  He knew he was a father, a husband, a son, etc. and that his murder would be devastating to many many people because lets face it, he was a very special man who touched many more lives than the average man.  Yet MDC cowardly murdered him in front of his wife, with a 5 year old child sleeping a few floors above.  This man in my opinion, does not deserve freedom or anything else for that matter.

21 August 2012
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LTJX - you're dead wrong about many things. I hope you can realize I'm merely attempting to dissuade you from nonsensical thoughts.
1) Dipsy meant that Lennon is nothing special in the legal sense, insofar as his killer should get no additional jail time for his offense. She obviously knows he was special as an musician - but first degree murder laws are constant regardless of who you kill.
2) Reagon had zero power (neither real power nor influence) on December 8, 1980. He was the President - Elect. No cabinet members had been ratified, no policies implemented. He couldn't have ordered Lennon killed if he wanted to.
3) Jimmy Carter loved John. He is an absolute devotee to the Give Peace A Chance school of thought. Never would be have ordered Lennon shot.
4) There are about 500 million assumptions in that. Mark David Chapman was a mentally deranged man, who, by reading Catcher in the Rye and interpretating its contents as he did, he shot Lennon. Reagan cried when he heard the news. He had no part in it.
5) Had anyone put Chapman up to it, why did MDC go in October, almost kill him, have second thoughts, fly back to Hawaii, tell his wife, fly back, and then kill him? He wouldn't.

I tried to think of something powerful and moving… and failed.  "You were given a choice between war and dishonor - you chose dishonor, and you shall have war" - Winston Churchill
21 August 2012
8.13pm
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The person that killed John Lennon in front of his wife in cold blood is getting exactly what a jury of his peers sentenced him to - 20 years to "life".

The person that killed John Lennon in front of his wife in cold blood did not receive a sentence of 20 years to "well, he's served enough time let's set him free".

If year after year a parole board decides that the person that killed John Lennon in front of his wife in cold blood is not deserving of parole, then the person that killed John Lennon in front of his wife in cold blood is getting exactly what a jury of his peers sentenced him to - 20 years to "life".

I don't recall this sentence setting a precedent regarding the cold blooded murder of a celebrity. He killed a human being that just happened to be John Lennon...in a premeditated fashion...in front of his wife...in cold blood.

There are no do-overs. This is it. This is his sentence. If it goes to a "life" sentence, so be it. I will sleep very well at night with this knowledge tucked underneath my pillow.

To the fountain of perpetual mirth, Let it roll for all its worth.

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22 August 2012
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One thing about the U.S. that I respect is that when they say something, they mean it. Had MDC been British and sentenced in the UK, there's a good chance he would be free by now.

I'm quite confident that he will never be released, thank goodness.

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23 August 2012
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Well, he has a longer sentence because it was John... which to me doesn't seem fair. I love John so much that it hurts but everyone has the right to freedom. It's not right to rob his killer from his life. The jail time should be the same for whoever they killed. 

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23 August 2012
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Well, I mostly agree - the killing of a famous musician isn't necessarily worse than the killing of another random adult. But I certainly have no problem with, say, a child-killer being given a harsher sentence than the killer of an adult. But fame alone shouldn't be a factor. 

One day, a tape-op got a tape on backwards, he went to play it, and it was all "Neeeradno-undowarrroom" and it was "Wow! Sounds Indian!" -- Paul McCartney
23 August 2012
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Parole denied -- the New York Department of Corrections says Chapman was denied parole after a hearing yesterday.

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23 August 2012
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Washinton Post report the following

 

“Despite your positive efforts while incarcerated, your release at this time would greatly undermine respect for the law and tend to trivialize the tragic loss of life which you caused as a result of this heinous, unprovoked, violent, cold and calculated crime,” board member Sally Thompson wrote. Board members Joseph Crangle and Marc Coppola agreed.

“The panel notes your good conduct, program achievements, educational accomplishments, positive presentation, remorse, risk and needs assessment, letters of support, significant opposition to your release and all other statutory factors were considered,” Thompson wrote. “However, parole shall not be granted for good conduct and program completions alone.”

Chapman can try again for parole in two years.

 Transcript of hearing to follow.

 

Cant say for a second im disappointed.

Don’t make your love suffer insecurities, trade the baggage of self to set another one free. ('Paper Skin' - Kendall Payne)
23 August 2012
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meanmistermustard said
Washinton Post report the following

“The panel notes your good conduct, program achievements, educational accomplishments, positive presentation, remorse, risk and needs assessment, letters of support, significant opposition to your release and all other statutory factors were considered,” Thompson wrote. “However, parole shall not be granted for good conduct and program completions alone.”

I just don't understand what else a prison inmate can do to be granted release... ahdn_george_05I'm very interested to read the full transcript.

"I'm not going to change the way I look or the way I feel to conform to anything. I've always been a freak. So I've been a freak all my life and I have to live with that, you know? I'm just one of those people."
23 August 2012
9.17pm
meanmistermustard
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Dipsy said

meanmistermustard said
Washinton Post report the following

“The panel notes your good conduct, program achievements, educational accomplishments, positive presentation, remorse, risk and needs assessment, letters of support, significant opposition to your release and all other statutory factors were considered,” Thompson wrote. “However, parole shall not be granted for good conduct and program completions alone.”

I just don't understand what else a prison inmate can do to be granted release... ahdn_george_05I'm very interested to read the full transcript.

The answer is in the first paragraph

 

“Despite your positive efforts while incarcerated, your release at this time would greatly undermine respect for the law and tend to trivialize the tragic loss of life which you caused as a result of this heinous, unprovoked, violent, cold and calculated crime,” board member Sally Thompson wrote. Board members Joseph Crangle and Marc Coppola agreed.

As someone said above Chapman was sentenced to 20 years to life, in this case its longer that 20 years. There are many killers in jail who remain there despite their good conduct and completing classes, there are many other factors that have to be taken into consideration.

 

I have no problem with this at all.

Don’t make your love suffer insecurities, trade the baggage of self to set another one free. ('Paper Skin' - Kendall Payne)
23 August 2012
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meanmistermustard said

Dipsy said

meanmistermustard said
Washinton Post report the following

“The panel notes your good conduct, program achievements, educational accomplishments, positive presentation, remorse, risk and needs assessment, letters of support, significant opposition to your release and all other statutory factors were considered,” Thompson wrote. “However, parole shall not be granted for good conduct and program completions alone.”

I just don't understand what else a prison inmate can do to be granted release... ahdn_george_05I'm very interested to read the full transcript.

The answer is in the first paragraph

“Despite your positive efforts while incarcerated, your release at this time would greatly undermine respect for the law and tend to trivialize the tragic loss of life which you caused as a result of this heinous, unprovoked, violent, cold and calculated crime,” board member Sally Thompson wrote. Board members Joseph Crangle and Marc Coppola agreed.

As someone said above Chapman was sentenced to 20 years to life, in this case its longer that 20 years. There are many killers in jail who remain there despite their good conduct and completing classes, there are many other factors that have to be taken into consideration.

I have no problem with this at all.


Oh, I didn't mean that it was wrong of you to think that, Mr. Mustard; I deeply apologize if I somehow implied that. I was just stating my opinionated response to the article itself. I have no problem with you thinking that: everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I respect yours.

I'm personally not upset that he wasn't granted parole; I just don't understand what else--besides the reasons already listed above--any inmate can do to be given freedom. That was my thought process. I'm just of the opinion (as I've stated before in previous posts) that MDC is being treated more harshly because of who he killed rather than because of the crime he committed...But I suppose I'll always think that.

"I'm not going to change the way I look or the way I feel to conform to anything. I've always been a freak. So I've been a freak all my life and I have to live with that, you know? I'm just one of those people."
23 August 2012
9.43pm
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While I have great sympathy for MDC as a human being, I simply believe that he has no place in the free world anymore.  For his own sake, he should just be allowed to live out his years in a medium-security facility where he can try to do whatever he can to be productive, creative, safe and sound.

E is for 'Ergent'.
23 August 2012
10.03pm
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I wasnt at all irked by your comments Dipsy. My comment of not being bothered by it was at parole being denied and nothing to do with your post, just my own views on the news.heart

 

I personally dont see Chapman being treated unfairly, his side of it was heard and was turned down. As to what else he can do, well it seems to me that his actions and the consequences upon and in society are a factor. He has to take responsibility for that too, its not just his own actions after the event.

Personally i doubt he will ever be freed and it wouldnt bother me in the slightest if he wasnt. That may sound harsh but for 1) Chapman would be a target for some other nutter who wants to get revenge for John.

Don’t make your love suffer insecurities, trade the baggage of self to set another one free. ('Paper Skin' - Kendall Payne)
23 August 2012
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Yes, the issue of his own safety is the thing that doesn't make me too disappointed by his ongoing incarceration. As bad of a deed as he may have committed, Chapman still has his own right to safety.

And you have a good point here, Mustard:

meanmistermustard said
I personally dont see Chapman being treated unfairly, his side of it was heard and was turned down.

I hadn't thought of it like that before...

"I'm not going to change the way I look or the way I feel to conform to anything. I've always been a freak. So I've been a freak all my life and I have to live with that, you know? I'm just one of those people."
24 August 2012
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You know, I always think about this. I bet if he were released, someone would recognize and stab/shoot/choke him. If it were up to me, he should be hung upside-down by his no-no's. a-hard-days-night-george-10

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