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Essential Lennon
19 April 2011
2.09am
mithveaen
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a-hard-days-night-ringo-8 Oh I agree with Til.

 

The thing is, I grew up with this idea of the Beatles as drug addicts, cheaters, rock stars. Not saint people. That's why when I read something really mean that the Beatles did I'm not like "OMG Did they do that??? That's impossible!!!!!!!" I just laugh. For example when I read that George told Paul "You stay in the fucking label. Hare Krishna". Or when I read that Paul doesn't give any support to his step-mom and his half-sister. Beatles being mean doesn't surprise me at all.

 

That's why I don't put them in a pedestal. Their music is the one I put there. apple01

Here comes the sun….. Scoobie-doobie…… Something in the way she moves…..attracts me like a cauliflower… Bop. Bop, cat bop. Go, Johnny, Go. Beware of Darkness…  I believe in SH...
19 April 2011
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All musicians are jerks. I haven't met one that wasn't.

*9*

I salute the lady who screamed "I love you Paul!" at a tribute band's concert.
19 April 2011
2.26am
mr. Sun king coming together
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The thing is, what the line of not caring about what others do? That argument is used time and again to justify lack of action. And lack of action is never acceptable. So it simply doesn't pass mustard, on the question of "Where's The Line?"

I tried to think of something powerful and moving… and failed.  "You were given a choice between war and dishonor - you chose dishonor, and you shall have war" - Winston Churchill
19 April 2011
2.28am
GniknuS
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Okaaaay, we've gotten a bit off topic here. I want to address John not being a good promoter of peace, the simple reality is that you are not a responsible person promoting peace unless you are at peace with yourself and that's what John struggled with his entire life. You can't cure the world's problems if you can't cure your own, bottom line. And if having the anthem for peace makes you a bad promoter of peace, what the hell would have made him a good promoter of it?

Was John a world class citizen on the same level as Mother Teresa or Princess Di? No, and no one, most importantly John, would try to argue that he was. He was just a human...a victim of the insane. The problem is that we know absolutely EVERYTHING about his life, and how many others can we say that about? How great of a guy was Gandhi when refused to allow his wife to take penicillin that would have saved her life? How much of a hypocrite does it make him that he took quinine to save his own life? And does that take away from what Gandhi brought to the world?

The point is that it's quite easy to demonize a celebrity for their flaws, or to just accept that we are all human and to celebrate the immense amount of joy that John Lennon brought to this world. I just don't understand why we make these relationships so personal, Mith is right, Julian is the one who suffered and he survived.

So take him for what he is, I think that is the point of John Lennon and that's what made him remarkable.

I sat on a rug, biding my time, drinking her wine
19 April 2011
3.24am
kedame
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I know, I know, I think about it too much! I know it's crazy, but it just creeps in my mind sometimes. I should just listen to the music and not really pay any attention to their lives, but. I. just. can't. help. it. It's weird, but I tend to get "invested." The funny thing is, I know I shouldn't. However, the fact that we are all discussing this proves I'm not the only one. John just makes me feel conflicted. I should just take John's music at face value and not think about the rest of it, but it's impossible for me, I think.

"You can manicure a cat but can you caticure a man?" John Lennon- Skywriting by Word of Mouth
19 April 2011
3.47am
GniknuS
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I'm not saying don't think about it, we all think about it or else we wouldn't have as much to talk about around here.
From my personal view, I'm not really concerned with making judgements about John, "I don't like that he did this" or whatever because there's no way you can change what happened. Thinking that I like him or I don't like him won't change how I feel about his music, so why bother worrying about it?
I think John is glorified too easily but also demonized too easily. People talk about him like he was the worst person in the world for being a bad father, or for being mean to Paul or whatever else, but it's not like John was a mass murderer or something like that. He had flaws and wasn't afraid to show them, and for that I'll always respect him. He didn't try to hide and pretend that he was some fantastic guy.

I sat on a rug, biding my time, drinking her wine
19 April 2011
4.10am
mithveaen
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you know, I always think of John's ideas that he was trying to do something better than him. That's the way I see it. I like this ideas, but I separate them from the man. To Julian they definetly sound fake. But to me? When I listen to All You Need Is Love and Imagine, I truly believe on that. I dunno.

 

I also think in Amadeus movie. If that was true… and Mozart was a true clown.. but his music was sublime… does the man make the music less sublime?? I don't think so. 

 

Again guys this is a wonderful debate. apple01

 

Edit : Now I'm going to say something : Our personal experiences also impact how we see people. I had a friend who stopped liking Tommy Lee Jones when she found out he cheated on his wife and married his lover because her Dad had done the same thing. I'm not saying that your situation.. but I think it's interesting to point out that.

Here comes the sun….. Scoobie-doobie…… Something in the way she moves…..attracts me like a cauliflower… Bop. Bop, cat bop. Go, Johnny, Go. Beware of Darkness…  I believe in SH...
19 April 2011
4.26am
kedame
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mithveaen said:

Edit : Now I'm going to say something : Our personal experiences also impact how we see people. I had a friend who stopped liking Tommy Lee Jones when she found out he cheated on his wife and married his lover because her Dad had done the same thing. I'm not saying that your situation.. but I think it's interesting to point out that.

That is a really great point. I didn't have the greatest childhood either. (Dad was an alcoholic, we were really poor, parents divorced, Dad died when I was 13, etc.) Because of that, I try to rise above my circumstances, to not let it control me. I guess it's a character flaw of mine that I sometimes sneer when people say, "Well, they had a crappy childhood, so..." I tend to think of everything after "so" as just an excuse. Now, I'm not saying that John didn't rise above his circumstances to become successful because he DID, but he still let it rule him, I feel. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know? Maybe that's just heartless of me? It's also hard for me to separate the art from the artist. It's like I can't watch a movie if I don't like the actor. It's the same with John's music. I can't listen to songs like Imagine because I don't think John really felt that way most of the time...He believed in everything at least once in his life (religion, money, astrology, sometimes even government), so it feels weird to me to listen to it. Maybe I'm limiting myself...but once again, I just can't help it.'

P.S. Don't flame me for not enjoying Imagine a-hard-days-night-george-10

"You can manicure a cat but can you caticure a man?" John Lennon- Skywriting by Word of Mouth
19 April 2011
4.27am
GniknuS
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But does that make Tommy Lee Jones less of an actor? I think we can choose to not like someone, but still respect their talent. In John's case, I would have to imagine that we could all name something that we don't like about him, for example I don't like how dismissive John was of the Beatles work in his solo career. I understand why he said some of the things he said, but that doesn't mean I agree with him or appreciate his attitude.
But isn't that true of everyone outside of ourselves? Hopefully we all learn to love and embrace every aspect of our being, but name one other person that you like everything about them. Maybe your spouse, but even then it seems as though most learn to tolerate the others flaws. Your patents? Friends? I mean, come on, no one's perfect.

I sat on a rug, biding my time, drinking her wine
19 April 2011
8.04am
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really enjoying reading all your views guys .. from the music we have gone onto the man, but that's inevitable with Lennon as he was so complex / controversial or whatever and that came through in his art. In fact in the case of Lennon I was initially more interested in the man than the music - I read the biography first and then I got the solo albums, and listened a bit more carefully to his Beatles stuff.

It's true he had a childhood and adolescence which went on to shape him - he could become obnoxious and aggressive as well as sweet and loving. We know about his relationship with his mother, father, school, authority and perhaps we can only be grateful that it was all channeled into creative energy through music and songs. He was always the outspoken one ("more poular than Christ etc..") and the individual (In His Own Write...), he started the Beatles and he was the one who wanted to stop them. Arguably he treated Julian badly becuase he didn't really know any other way....with Sean he went to the opposite pole..but hey, he was happy with that (supposedly).

he had moments of "peace", moments of protest, and moments of madness (lost weekend) ....but that was John Lennon.

 

The biggest tragedy as far as I'm concerned is that he died . .correction: was killed...just at a time when he was finally really finding a bit of peace with himself and the world. He was "clean" and he was creative, without being an obnoxious git.

 

The man..the music..the tragedy.

(would've made a good title for my talk!)a-hard-days-night-john-1

 

19 April 2011
10.46am
mr. Sun king coming together
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John is way to glorified way to easy. And his bad childhood Is his defenders reasons to claim that it want his fault, it was the fault of outside forces. I don't know how much was because of outside forces (being a lucky kid), but he had the choice to intentionally leave Julian. And I'm sorry, completely ignoring him for 4 years is absolutely horrendous and evil, whether you're John Lennon or Joe Six-Pack. Look, I have to find that horrible. If we brush off/ignore what he did on the basis of it's his life, not ours, the fundamental processes of society and decency will crumble.

I tried to think of something powerful and moving… and failed.  "You were given a choice between war and dishonor - you chose dishonor, and you shall have war" - Winston Churchill
19 April 2011
3.04pm
mithveaen
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a-hard-days-night-ringo-8 Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh you said it well!!

 

There are many people in the show business who are looked up to because they're just… people in the show business. Example: Paris Hilton. I mean, a lot of people admire her, I think she's a genius because everybody knows her name and she does NOTHING. But do I want her as a role model? Of course not.

 

What I'm trying to say, we need to separate indeed the person from the talent. Yes, John did something horrible, that's why we can't say St. John Lennon, the saviour of the world. No no. He and the Beatles did something that was greater than them. Their Music.  Now does this mean I'm going to abandon my child for 4 years because I find love? The hell no!!  I'm not that stupid or heartless.

 

If we're to admire people for what they did, or what they have done, we need to choose someone else. Mother Teresa, Gandhi, someone else!! God talks to us through their actions, and those actions are the ones we are to imitate. You know who's the person I admire the most in this life? A coworker I had. She never married , she has to take care of a very ill Mom and a brother who's a special kid. And I can't remember a day when she complained, or she didn't have this brilliant smile on her face.When a friend asked her why she never did it she said "Why should I? They're my family and well, that's the life I have to live. Why just not enjoy it?". That truly blew me away.

 

Now, remember what I say that our background make us shape our opinions? Well, in this case, my Mom wasn't the best parent ever. Most of the insecurities I have in life are because of her. But at the end of her life I weighed all the good and the bad things she did to me, and the good things were an overwhealming majority, so I decided to keep that in my heart, to forgive her, and to move on. Julian has moved on too.That doesn't mean that when I hear Beautiful Boy I think "And Julian your motherf***er?"

 

 

Very interesting rants guys..apple01apple01apple01apple01

If we brush off/ignore what he did on the basis of it's
his life, not ours, the fundamental processes of society and decency
will crumble.

And Sun King, it truly warms my heart to read your words. That's so true. apple01

Here comes the sun….. Scoobie-doobie…… Something in the way she moves…..attracts me like a cauliflower… Bop. Bop, cat bop. Go, Johnny, Go. Beware of Darkness…  I believe in SH...
19 April 2011
4.06pm
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Very interesting points raised. that's what makes him so interesting perhaps.

I sort of hope that this kind of debate will come up after my talk! I'm certainly not going to present JL as a saint..or even sinner...

a-hard-days-night-ringo-15

19 April 2011
7.33pm
GniknuS
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Maybe there is no right answer here, what John did to Julian was clearly wrong and horrible, but I don't think that weighed on anyone more than it did John. He was the one who had to sleep at night knowing what he was doing to that kid. The simple reality is that he was not ready to be a father, that's not giving him an excuse but I've known plenty of young people who had kids before they were ready and some grew up quickly and became great parents and some didn't. John didn't, that's not condoning what he did, that's just the truth and there's nothing that anyone can do about it now.

I don't think that ignoring what John did will make our society crumble, I think accepting that he was a human is the most important part of looking at his life. Our society, at least in the United States, is founded on looking to Hollywood at these people like they are larger than life gods or something, like they are greater than we are but they just flat out aren't. So looking at John's life and realizing his flaws is incredibly beneficial for me because it made made realize that no one is greater than I am, or more important or any different, so why should I idealize anyone? I think it's cool to look at people's lives and be influenced by what they did, but to blindly follow someone without realizing they are human is ridiculous, and let's be honest about it, that line between blindly worshiping John Lennon and blindly worshiping some God is pretty thin, and there are a whole hell of a lot more problems with people blindly worshiping some God than John Lennon.

So I say look to yourself, it's quite easy to demonize someone for their problems, but look in the mirror and correct your own problems because no God or no John Lennon is going to do that for you, and that's what I've learned from John.

I sat on a rug, biding my time, drinking her wine
19 April 2011
7.46pm
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He's human. HE'S HUMAN. I don't care if he was my neighbor or my idol (music wise), he's human! GniknuS has a point. Us Americans tend to look at celebrities, and see their faults. And because they do something wrong doesn't make us any better. What he did was bad, but he's human. He had mistakes, and had to apologize, and by putting it into a song, it was more permanent. I guess that's why John's my favorite Beatle. Because there was a time where he just realized that he was wrong.

I salute the lady who screamed "I love you Paul!" at a tribute band's concert.
19 April 2011
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mr. Sun king coming together
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I never said that ignoring John's faults would cause society to crumble. What I said is that ignorance, and the belief of "I'm not directly affected, so why bother?" does. And that mentality allows for inaction where action was needed. And that is never acceptable.

Edit: 

If we brush off/ignore what he did on the basis of it's
his life, not ours, the fundamental processes of society and decency
will crumble.

And Sun King, it truly warms my heart to read your words. That's so true. apple01

Thanks Mith. And this doesn't simply apply to John. It applies to all.

 
I tried to think of something powerful and moving… and failed.  "You were given a choice between war and dishonor - you chose dishonor, and you shall have war" - Winston Churchill
20 April 2011
5.53am
GniknuS
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But to say that being apathetic towards how we look at John's life is really that important is kind of silly. I'm not saying don't care, but it is what it is, we can't change what he did, but the reality is that there are much, much larger things that most are apathetic towards than their final judgement of John. I know this is just my opinion, but I just don't find it that big of a deal. Yes he was a bastard, and he'd be the first to admit that, but he also was a genius and it's that part of him that I care about.

I sat on a rug, biding my time, drinking her wine
20 April 2011
11.43am
mr. Sun king coming together
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So you give him a free pass because he's John Lennon? That's silly. If he was human, than he doesnt deserve a free pass. And that is not silly.

I tried to think of something powerful and moving… and failed.  "You were given a choice between war and dishonor - you chose dishonor, and you shall have war" - Winston Churchill
20 April 2011
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StrawberryLakiesha
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mr. Sun king coming together said:

So you give him a free pass because he's John Lennon? That's silly. If he was human, than he doesnt deserve a free pass. And that is not silly.

I think that everyone desirves a pree pass, and it doesn't matter how bad the thing that they did was because just because someone does something really bad it doesn't make them a bad person, because no person is a bad person it's only because they tell you people who kill or do stuff like that are bad becuase they don't want you to do it, and so most people are brainwashed into believing that they're bad people.

Really though, we're all savages; some just hide it better than others, that's all.

ONE MINUTE YOU'RE DEFENDING THE WHOLE GALAXY, AND SUDDENLY, YOU FIND YOURSELF SUCKING DOWN DARJEELING WITH MARIE ANTOINETTE AND HER LITTLE SISTER.!
20 April 2011
3.19pm
mithveaen
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I have to disagree. There are bad people in this world. As simple as that. I invite you go to to yahoo or google news and search mass graves Mexico. I live 600 kms south that place. People I know lives there. So, trust me, there are bad people in this world.

 

I've been thinking a lot about this and I don't think I admire John Lennon the person. It's like Dr. House the character played by Hugh Laurie. I love him because he's a motherf**er, but I wouldn't want him as my friend or my husband. But I admire his message and what he wanted to say, because I think he truly means it. When he wrote All You Need Is Love and Imagine, he really believed all those things. So that's the message I keep for myself. If he had preached with the example, then I'd admire him as I admire Gandhi, or Martin Luther King.

 

Now if you disagree with me I can understand it. I live in times when I prefer to see the best in someone rather than the worst, because for that, I just need to listen to the stories people I know tell me.

 

Here comes the sun….. Scoobie-doobie…… Something in the way she moves…..attracts me like a cauliflower… Bop. Bop, cat bop. Go, Johnny, Go. Beware of Darkness…  I believe in SH...
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