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Did Yoko love John?
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5 February 2014
7.49pm
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Expert Textpert
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kezron9 said

Billy Rhythm said One thing that nobody can really refute is the fact that John & Yoko's marriage survived much adversity over the years which further strengthened the undeniable bond between them, even if the claims of them going through a rough time in John's last years are in fact true, I would think that it would've been more likely that they'd moved past it and become even closer as a result.  Reading into John singing about "starting over" because of some desire to make a clean break from Yoko, or a "divorce", is nonsense.  He says "when I see you darling, it's like we BOTH are falling in love again, it'll be just like starting over"...:-) 

You have totally twisted my words. I was saying he wanted to start over with her...But why start over? because they didn't have a great relationship. I wasn't referring to him leaving her, but many sources claim she was going to leave him but then he decided to launch a comeback. Also the Lost weekend, apparently both had ongoing affairs. This website mentions Yoko was also dating some guitarist during the lost weekend, which I was surprised I hadn't heard. Apparently he never stops seeing May. The BOTH line cant be used to support her loving him.Written by John its what he wanted and hoped for in my opinion.John knew how to manipulate the media which they both did.  I look at Johns I'm Losing You  followed by Yoko's I'm Moving On as some sort of supporting evidence. Also my friend knows Fred Seaman he's a good guy his account is very accurate. My friend never new he even worked for John. The book was also published in 1992 so he didn't hop on the 80's bandwagon. He was crushed when he was killed. I am and never said she didn't love him she did, but there is enough evidence to cast doubt in my mind if to question if she did in 1980.
 
*I'm just sitting here doing time*

 

I will admit that reading Seaman's book caused me to have my doubts (thus starting this thread).  That said, John was a prisoner of his own will.  No one forced him to stay in his bed in The Dakota listening to the radio and reading magazines.

Seaman does paint a picture that is obviously skewed by his own perception of the events that took place.  For instance, he obviously wanted John to be out recording music and making albums, and saw him living a kind of creative death.  But John described himself as part "performing flea" and part "monk."  I personally identify with the monk side of John's character and The Dakota period is the most fascinating period to me.  John was doing what he wanted to.

I think he would rather have just "hung out" around the house than taking on all the business which Yoko did.  Granted, Yoko did use the business as a way to isolate herself and avoid contact with John and the family.  But I think that this is probably in part due to her resurging heroin addiction, which she didn't want John to know about (and apparently he never did know).

Also, it is not uncommon for couples to go through periods where one or the other is not interested in a "roll in the hay," so I don't think this in and of itself is evidence that Yoko was done with the relationship.

Not to mention that one (or both?) of the men she was emotionally interested in at that time was probably gay...so the whole "Yoko saw someone immediately after John's death" argument doesn't hold weight either, especially when you take into account that John saw someone too.  As I recall, his reaction when he found out about Yoko's affair was "We all have our flings."

 

"This Beatles talk bores me to death." --John Lennon
5 February 2014
8.16pm
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Billy Rhythm
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Expert Textpert said 
he obviously wanted John to be out recording music and making albums, and saw him living a kind of creative death.  But John described himself as part "performing flea" and part "monk."  I personally identify with the monk side of John's character and The Dakota period is the most fascinating period to me.  John was doing what he wanted to.
 
  

This is a common denominator amongst those who make out their marital problems to be anymore than the same ups and downs that all marriages go through.  Many on the outside looking in wanted John to be the "John" that he used to be before he'd met Yoko, which I don't think that John himself wanted to be anymore, even if there were parts of him that missed certain aspects of those days.  Since we're using 'Double Fantasy' lyrics for "evidence", John pretty much states where he is at quite clearly:

 

Don't you miss the big time boy you're no longer on the ball?

I'm just sitting here Watching The Wheels go round and round
I really love to watch them roll
No longer riding on the merry-go-round
I just had to let it go

 

While John's thoughts and feelings are quite clear, Yoko's on the other hand aren't so easily translated.  While the lyrics to 'I'm Moving On' may indeed seem on the surface to be the vows of a woman who's genuinely declared that she's "moving on", they could just as easily be interpreted as someone who's getting desperate to regain control of someone by "threatening" to leave but had no intention of ever doing it, so who really knows?  In my experiences in life, when someone truly means that they're "moving on" they just do it and don't feel the need to tell the person they're leaving that they're going to...:-)

5 February 2014
8.29pm
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Musketeer Gripweed
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Billy Rhythm said

kezron9 said I would also love to know what was said in the control room on the night he was killed that Jack Douglas had to erase. Apparently he phoned home telling his family he was coming home. Would love to know what that was about.

 
Whatever was said (if this claim is even actually true), it was a personal phone call that's nobody's business but their own.  People who are famous have the same privacy rights as anybody else, including being able to have a telephone conversation without them being recorded and released to the public...:-)

Phone call? This was said in the control room in person. They recorded everything done during the sessions even in the control room on John and Yokos request. True, yes Jack Douglas confirmed this and confirmed he deleted the tapes in an interview. Do some research why don't ya? I understand privacy, but this was done with their knowledge. They recorded everything so conversations were caught on tape.Your twisting Words again. It wasn't some phone call Jack Douglass recorded....Jack and Yoko listened to all the tapes as a tribute and goodbye to John after his death.... Jack Douglas deleted them to never be heard by some one maybe Yoko. I am making an educated guess it was something Jackdidn't  want Yoko to hear. It also raises an eye brow that they prolly have audio of him doing drugs and cocaine, but that there was one thing he had to delete. I dont want to hear it just curious as to why Jack was compelled to delete only this conversation. 

5 February 2014
8.48pm
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Musketeer Gripweed
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Expert Textpert I agree that John was a prisoner of himself. Very depressing period. John just used being a house husband as an excuse to cover the truth. Which is definitely what went on in there marriage also. I dont know why John lied and claims that he wrote 22 song in bermuda in a creative spell, maybe to juice up the album release. For whatever reason he lost motivation to release his work. He finished up the songs in Bermuda but most were already done. He wasnt really living, which I imagine caused huge marital problems being depressed, around all the time, and not working. I wonder if he was secretly on H too? Sounds like a herion induced haze I would know : /. 

Fred was in tough situation. Watching the greatest musician rotting away. Hard not to root for him to make music. I dont think John wanted to be a full time monk, I think he had lost his motivational muse to release music. I dont think he was getting the support he needed being sent on random trips to Japan when all he wanted was land and to sail. Also I know the Coney's who charted the Bermuda sail. Their marina is in Coldspring Harbor my hometime. Havent asked them about it since John ditched them lol, but will grow a pair to do it sometime soon. He also had a house around here.

Maybe him getting back in the studio saved him and their marriage, but if that dark period was to continue there is no doubt in my mind Yoko most likely would of left. Apparently she had had enough in the beginning of the summer of 1980, which I don't blame her. 

6 February 2014
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Ron Nasty
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kezron9, I remind you again of the third rule of this forum. Just because you deleted the post that I'veJustSeenAFaceo and I objected to does not mean that you did not respond to the post you found "ridiculous", though it does show that Billy Rhythm chose not to respond to it, as I am aware that he saw it, but chose to leave I'veJustSeenAFaceo's and my responses as the reply to that post.

You are discrediting yourself, in my opinion, by your refusal to accept others have the right to disagree. I am happy to admit that I hold no truck with the Seaman/Green stories. Even Robert Rosen, who Seaman approached within days of Lennon's murder to transcribe stolen material now feels he was lied to by him, and has a different point of view to Seaman about the diary recordings.

I may no longer be a moderator, and so am only talking as a forum member, but as I have previously said, you are becoming too personal and abusive. While you may have deleted one of the posts, three forum members have felt the need to respond to how you how chosen to respond to things within the past few hours.

I haven't seen BR say any more than your view that Fred is good guy is something he doesn't agree with. Well, to be honest, nor do I. The only reason his "revelations" came out so late was because he spent most of the '80s getting his ar*e sued for theft. He is about as disreputable a witness that I can think of. No reflection on you, you obviously have a different point of view, and you're allowed it.

We are asked to respect differing views here, even those we disagree with. So, please, I ask you to look at the forum rules and to start abiding by them.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty

6 February 2014
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