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Did Yoko love John?
26 September 2013
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WETSRoosa
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cbatcu said

Expert Textpert said
Wow, Yoko's new song "Take Me to the Land of Hell" is amazing. I'm pretty sure it's a love song to John. It's so good it made me cry.

Wonder if she had SatanHimself in mind while making it?

Does it come with a travel brochure and an insert advertising travel insurance?

 

Not sure if SatanHimself would appreciate Yoko singing a song dedicated to him... might be somewhat uncomfortable...

"Daddy, just remember... Mommy's smarter than you. She said so."- My 4 year old
26 September 2013
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^^I stand chastised. Sorry for hating on you SatanHimself. Can you find it in your heart to forgive me?

26 September 2013
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WETSRoosa
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cbatcu said
^^I stand chastised. Sorry for hating on you SatanHimself. Can you find it in your heart to forgive me?

 

"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

There, now you are free of sin, my child.

It's a Catholic thing.. confess the sins, wash them clean...

"Daddy, just remember... Mommy's smarter than you. She said so."- My 4 year old
26 September 2013
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mccartneyalarm said
Very excellent information, mja6758, about Yoko and the history of her search for Kyoko. I do remember much of what you brought up from my readings. I agree that Yoko is not a monster, and clearly, since she is human, she must have some feelings which were/are directed at her children. I am not arguing with you at all. I just can't forget how she treated Sean after he was born....rather ignoring him; sending him off with John whenever she could so she could take care of the family "business." Maybe that isn't proof she didn't love Sean, but it does make me question her priorities. As for Kyoko....it is quite true Tony Cox simply made it impossible for her to locate Kyoko. However, it was John who lead the crusade to find her at any cost. And, Yoko HAS to win at any cost. I can't help thinking that part of her parental crusade was due to the fact she insisted on beating Tony out of custody, not because she wanted her daughter back at all costs. Yoko was very clear throughout her life that she did not want to have children. She had many abortions (not that there is anything wrong with that). But, it is the reason she had difficulty conceiving. The way she kept John from Julian; the way she treated Sean as an infant; and her lack of interest in the role of motherhood her whole life all point to my doubts about the depth of her maternal instincts.

Sorry, been awhile since I've done this, hope I remembered how to do quotes/attributes correctly.

I've been enjoying reading this thread. A lot of interesting points, good information.

While I'm no Yoko apologist and tend to stand with those who feel Yoko didn't feel as strongly for John as he did for her, I do want to point something out. Yoko has admitted that she knows she comes off as stoic and emotionless at times and has said that's down to her strict upbringing. She was raised by upper-class well-to-do parents, at least before the war broke out, and showing emotion was frowned upon in her home, so as a child she was trained not to do it. I think she even said in some interviews it's why she used to put her hand up when she smiled or giggled, at first. This was in the late 60s or early 70s. John made her laugh a lot and she was often seen doing this when they were on early talk show appearances. She didn't do it later, as she learned she didn't have to.

Being with John opened her up, emotionally, as much as, maybe, she was able to, publicly. What we see, of course, isn't what she shows to her friends and family. Just as the goofy, hard-shelled devil-may-care rebel Lennon he wanted the world to see wasn't what he showed his family and friends. Though we were able to see more of the real John in his music and art. Not being a huge fan of Yoko's music, if I understood it more, maybe I could see more of the other side of her in the music she releases, just as I do in John's. But, conversely, I think being with Yoko opened John up to being able to love more openly. Or at least the way he understood it. As has been said, his version of a wife was also a mother, which he openly called Yoko. Since he never felt he had one, I think he didn't only want a wife, he wanted a protector, someone he felt was on his side 100%. And whether she was or not, Yoko at least made John think she was. Personally, I agree with those who feel she's mostly on her own side, and once she gets what she wants, she can fulfill the needs of others. John was a means to an end, so really, in a way, so long as John's needs did get met, hers did as well - keep the golden goose happy and the money keeps rolling in, thereby Yoko's needs will get fulfilled. Vicious circle.

I don't remember if it was in May Pang's book, but I did read somewhere that Julian wasn't welcome, or rather it wasn't encouraged he visit, because of the pain Yoko felt in not being able to have her daughter. It was up to John to do find a middle ground and make it right, telling Yoko if his son couldn't come there, then he'll be leaving her for a week to go visit Julian. But he didn't. He basically cow-towed to what she wanted. Because he didn't care? It was easier for him? I don't know.

It was true he'd never been on his own since birth, he'd always had someone taking care of his needs - his mother, his aunt, Cynthia/Brian [I say Epstein insomuch as artistically and business, whatever he needed, a book, a record, Brian made the deal, and when he needed money, Brian arranged it all], Yoko. And that's why when she'd had enough and knew she wanted him out of the house, Yoko purposely chose May to send John off with for their separation. She knew she needed someone to take care of his needs. The problem's always been, what did she mean by "needs". May says Yoko knew they would end up sleeping together because John was interested in May but would never do anything with her as along as he & Yoko were together. But he was a very sexual person and given free reign, all bets were off. Yoko's claimed she just meant May was to continue being a personal assistant, attending to John's business affairs. Personally, Yoko's no idiot.

What she hadn't anticipated was that May would open John up to all he'd been missing on a personal level - he became reacquainted with his son, as Julian and Cynthia came to Disneyland in 1973 for a visit, Julian refusing to come without his mother. When he visited again the next year, this time to Disney World in FL, he was more comfortable and Cyn didn't accompany him. In late March, 1974, Paul dropped by a recording session John was doing for a Harry Nilsson album, the last the two would ever attend together. John invited Paul & the family to his Malibu home the next day for a visit, which included May, Ringo, former Beatles roadie Mal Evans, Keith Moon and others. As he was leaving, Paul told John they should see each other again. John nodded. May said John later told Nilsson, wouldn't it be fun to get the "guys" back together again. She said she knew who he meant. She said he told her he wanted to write with Paul again and asked her if she thought it was a good idea. She highly encouraged it. He told her they should go down and visit Paul & Linda where they were working on their next album - New Orleans, in early 1975.

As we well know, that trip never took place. In early 1975 John & May moved back to New York, Yoko called John to undergo hypnotherapy to stop smoking, and he basically never returned from that. I think May's claimed the hypnotherapy either included or was an actual hypnotic spell Yoko used to get John back sooner rather than later, because the plans John & May had, a future together, going to see Paul & Linda, John leaving Yoko and actually moving to the next level with May, were as if they never existed. He was just with Yoko again. And before you knew it, Yoko was pregnant.

The story [myth?] goes, the couple agreed that she carried the baby for nine months so John would take over caring for the baby for a time after that. It was his decision to choose 5 years, believing the first 5 are the most important, developmentally. Plus the guilt over how he hadn't  been there for Julian had been weighing on him, probably especially since he'd now reestablished a relationship with this now-preteen youth whom he was just getting to know. He didn't want to make the same mistake, twice. And Yoko had had a very rough pregnancy so she wasn't in the best of shape, right afterwards, to do much. That's not to say once she was well she couldn't have doted on the infant. But she was more interested in business.

And for a businesswoman it was a great time - she was just finishing up untangling John from his Beatles affairs, and now was working on rebuilding his [their?] money, which wasn't doing as well as one would've thought. We have to remember, the revered Lennon of today wasn't so revered pre-death. He didn't sell as well back then. His albums before retirement did all right but were more Beatles fanbase sellers than anything, and were usually a mixed bag as far as the critics were concerned. His only #1 had been Whatever Gets You Thru The Night. Even later, Double Fantasy received mix reviews and was selling moderately before the tragic events of December 8. We tend to forget that. So mother instinct or not, they each knew their strong points - she had the business mind and pretty much single-handedly rebuilt their finances, making record-setting deals. And John knew he needed a well-deserved rest, and wanted to make good on the past. He raised Sean and, yes, Julian visited a few times during the late 70s. I don't know that he only saw his father 10 times post-divorce. Maybe, maybe not. It may be the memories of a scorned man who can't remember the good because the bad so outweighs the rest. Or maybe it's true. I don't know how often he was there after John & Yoko reunited. But there are photos of him sledding with the 3 of them, playing guitar with his father while Sean's there. Could all be from the same visit. But how Julian was treated is a thread unto itself.

Sorry to go on and on!

 

26 September 2013
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I had never heard the story about the hypnosis.  I'm reading You Never Give Me Your Money--maybe it mentions it. I 'm almost to that point of the story.

Anyway, I personally don't think you can hypnotize anyone to do something they don't already want to do, unless maybe there are repeated sessions with hardcore mind control techniques.  It's pretty telling that he was hypnotized to quit smoking and that didn't happen, so I doubt there was any real power in the hypnosis he received.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death." --John Lennon

26 September 2013
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wetsroosa said

cbatcu said
^^I stand chastised. Sorry for hating on you SatanHimself. Can you find it in your heart to forgive me?

 

"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

There, now you are free of sin, my child.

It's a Catholic thing.. confess the sins, wash them clean...

I was free and clear for a few minutes, a sliver of time. I've already transgressed again...at least twice...in two different threads.

 

26 September 2013
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I tend to agree with you. I think May felt Yoko held some sort of mind-control over John. The hypnotism to quit smoking was an excuse to get John back under her wing. Let's face it, he never truly left, what with the constant phone calls, letting Yoko know where he was, what he was up to, how he was doing. She was keeping constant tabs on him. And according to the two of them, after the fact, he was periodically asking Yoko to come home throughout the lost weekend period. I don't recall if May's ever said she heard him ask that in front of her.

But an important thing to remember here is that John liked Yoko to control him, however it is we define that. Sure, in the Playboy interview he took people to task for saying that very thing. How dare we, he was his own man, etc. In the meantime, he called her "Mother" and did exactly what she told him - take a boat and travel and in Easterly path. Take a plane and go to Japan, alone, in a specific route. She did this routinely and at the drop of a hat. If you believe the books written by those who worked in the Dakota around the two of them, she did this when she wanted to work on projects without John in the way. But she also did this with family trips for the three of them. Point is, he did as he was told. He allowed it to take place, being complicit in how he was treated. He wasn't exactly a victim.

26 September 2013
8.49pm
Ron Nasty
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walrusgumboot said
Another Playboy quote, from the Dragon Lady herself: "I carried the baby nine months, now its your turn", speaking to John about Sean. There's a GOOD mother. And how did she lose Kyoko in the first place? I don't remember. But it generally takes a LOT to lose custody to the father . Just sayin....two-virgins

I would have replied sooner, but have been having internet problems. To begin with the custody arrangement was mutual, and nothing to do with the courts. The problems started when Yoko decided she wanted custody. She was awarded custody in a London court, which is when Cox went on the run. He was awarded custody at a hearing in an American court that she was not informed about, let alone represented at, and with the court not being told of the previous London decision. That decision was reversed by another American court when Yoko challenged it based on the London custody order.

I was very specific in my use of the word "kidnap". A parent who has legal custody cannot "kidnap" their child, nor would they spend over a decade hiding themself and the child under assumed names. Anthony Cox did not have legal custody, that was awarded to Yoko, which is why he went on the run with Kyoko.

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8 October 2013
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My belief is John loved Yoko, and, yes, Yoko loved John, but she wasn't going to be his doormat. Yoko was a strong enough woman to send John away when his behavior became intolerable for her. And how could John complain about her having an affair when he did the same thing in the most public way. 

Part of letting John come home was his recommitting to their relationship, and John growing up. Turning Sean over to him was the right thing to do as far as their relationship was concerned; being a househusband made John a better person, although in his last interview he discussed how  his changes in mood sometimes kept him from being able to cope with Sean.

And while it's true that she withheld her affection from John by hiding at the office and being immersed in her work, according to Philip Norman in his book about John, the true reason for her pulling away is she was secretly hooked again on heroin and didn't want John to figure that out.

And for all the comments about her being cold and distant, and not wanting to be a mother, she spent the years after John was killed raising a boy from five years of age to adulthood.

Nearly everybody's marriage, if it's of any significant length of time, will be filled with challenges, and, generally, people with huge amounts of money are less likely to ride out the difficulties. John and Yoko did, and I think they did it out of love for each other.

8 October 2013
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walrusgumboot
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Yoko did NOT love John, and John did NOT love Yoko. Because they were BOTH in love with Paul. Who wasn't really Paul, because he was DEAD. All together now, "Aaahhh...." (as sung by Ringo).

....ya won't be interferin' wit the basic rugged concept o' me personality would ya madam?
8 October 2013
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mccartneyalarm
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Hey, you're catching on! Meanwhile,

"Rocky burst in, and grinning a grin,

He said, Danny boy, this is a showdown.

But, Daniel was hot, he drew first and shot,

And Rocky collapsed in the corner."

"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."

8 October 2013
9.56pm
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walrusgumboot said
Yoko did NOT love John, and John did NOT love Yoko. Because they were BOTH in love with Paul. Who wasn't really Paul, because he was DEAD. All together now, "Aaahhh...." (as sung by Ringo).

And all of that happened because George slipped a little something extra in their tea while ooommmminggg a meditation that put them all in a trance like state.

8 October 2013
10.25pm
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I'm surprised no-one has Paul going with Brian considering Paul is meant to have been intimate with John who was said to be very close with Brian. I can see some kind of orgy with them all being written with Yoko bumping off Brian due to jealousy (not being able to decide who she wanted).

He told us not to get overwhelmed by grief and whatever thoughts we have... to keep them happy, because any thoughts we have of him will travel to him wherever he is. (John Lennon - 27/8/67)
8 October 2013
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Von Bontee
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Hey, who's to say Brian and Yoko didn't have a *thing* ?

One day, a tape-op got a tape on backwards, he went to play it, and it was all "Neeeradno-undowarrroom" and it was "Wow! Sounds Indian!" -- Paul McCartney
8 October 2013
10.56pm
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OMG, Yoko went after Paul to get back at Linda for rebuffing her advances!

8 October 2013
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meanmistermustard
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The Beatles and their entourage were looking to buy a Greek island and live there all together...

He told us not to get overwhelmed by grief and whatever thoughts we have... to keep them happy, because any thoughts we have of him will travel to him wherever he is. (John Lennon - 27/8/67)
9 October 2013
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mccartneyalarm
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That way Ceorge could sleep with Ringo's wife (Maureen), Yoko could sleep with Paul, Paul could sleep with Brian, and Sgt Pilcher would leave them alone since he doesn't have jurisdiction on a Greek Isle. Nutopia!

"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."

9 October 2013
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mccartneyalarm said
That way Ceorge could sleep with Ringo's wife (Maureen), Yoko could sleep with Paul, Paul could sleep with Brian, and Sgt Pilcher would leave them alone since he doesn't have jurisdiction on a Greek Isle. Nutopia!

And they all lived happily ever after.

 

9 October 2013
7.09pm
meanmistermustard
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Magic Alex could rig up some contraptions to increase their enjoyment.

He told us not to get overwhelmed by grief and whatever thoughts we have... to keep them happy, because any thoughts we have of him will travel to him wherever he is. (John Lennon - 27/8/67)
9 October 2013
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Wait a minute, do you guys have any sources for these claims?

"This Beatles talk bores me to death." --John Lennon

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