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Did Yoko love John?
24 September 2013
5.28pm
mccartneyalarm
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You are absolutely right. She called him incessantly and it drove John and May crazy. Yoko is a control freak. She needs to control everyone and everything (which is why she is addicted to numerology and psychics…she uses them to help her control her environment and relationships). The calls were part of her control tactics. She would tell them they could not go here or there because of how it would look. She'd complain if she saw something in the press she didn't like. And, she'd demand to keep up with what was going on with John even though she didn't want him back in her world quite yet. She was never going to leave John. She really could never do that. But, she could control where he was and what he was doing. She did that in the last years of John's life as well. She bought the house on Long Island for John so he could go there for summers, but she had no intentions of going there except for wuickie visits. Same thing with John's trip to Bermuda. (And the house in Florida, too). She let him go there on his own and kept telling him she'd come down, but would have a million excuses why she couldn't come. She had to keep her rope around him, but she didn't want him to be with her physically. I think if Yoko would have told John half-way through the "lost weekend" that he could come home, he'd have gone in a heartbeat…because he wanted her because he couldn't have her (at least not in the way it was in the early days of John and Yoko). Does that make sense?

"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."

24 September 2013
5.55pm
walrusgumboot
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I don't believe Yoko Ono is capable of loving anyone besides herself. John himself hit the nail perfectly on the head in the Playboy interview…" Yoko views men as assistants. Of varying degrees of intimacy, but basically assistants…" Bingo.

....ya won't be interferin' wit the basic rugged concept o' me personality would ya madam?
24 September 2013
6.06pm
DrBeatle
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^hit the nail right on the head

"I know you, you know me; one thing I can tell you is you got to be free!"

 

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24 September 2013
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I don't think it's exactly true that she can't love anyone, but I get the gist of what you guys are saying.  However, I also believe that if that if you can say that about Yoko, then it is also equally true that John was incapbale of truly loving women.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death." --John Lennon

24 September 2013
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WETSRoosa
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Expert Textpert said
I don't think it's exactly true that she can't love anyone, but I get the gist of what you guys are saying.  However, I also believe that if that if you can say that about Yoko, then it is also equally true that John was incapbale of truly loving women.

 

YES. Look at how he treated Cynthia, who basically did what she was told without much complaint (even changed her hair color to blonde because he had a thing for Bridgette Bardot), and still he couldn't return the favor? Granted, he had a screwed up upbringing and all, but his behavior with Cynthia (and probably with Yoko too and we just don't know about it) and all the affairs while married… Textpert nailed it.

"Daddy, just remember... Mommy's smarter than you. She said so."- My 4 year old
24 September 2013
7.32pm
DrBeatle
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I buy that possibility, although I don't think it's nearly as true in his case as it is in hers. Look at how he was so dependent on having a woman to love…Cynthia, then Yoko and his almost worship of her, and then May (who he should've ended up with if he knew what was good for him in the end).

"I know you, you know me; one thing I can tell you is you got to be free!"

 

Please Visit My Website, The Rock and Roll Chemist

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24 September 2013
9.04pm
mccartneyalarm
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I think you've all nailed it…neither John nor Yoko were/are capable of Real Love. But, based on Yoko's other relationships with men, with her children, and her behavior in general, I sincerely doubt she is capable of loving anyone but herself (which she indeed does have down to a science). John loved Stu and Paul (I believe he did anyway) and the other guys in Quarrymen & the Beatles. Yoko could never scare up those emotions for anyone. I think John had trouble understanding and relating to women because of the mixed signals he got from Julia and the role model he had in Auntie Mimi. John absolutely had deep emotions based on the songs he wrote. Look at Yoko's compositions…haven't heard one of them that is a "love song"(though I am not a scholar of Yoko's music by any means). Why do you think it is so essential for Yoko to keep going the "myth" of John and Yoko after all these years? Do you think it is to protect the "brand" as it were? Just curious.

"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."

24 September 2013
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mccartneyalarm said
I think you've all nailed it…neither John nor Yoko were/are capable of Real Love. But, based on Yoko's other relationships with men, with her children, and her behavior in general, I sincerely doubt she is capable of loving anyone but herself (which she indeed does have down to a science). John loved Stu and Paul (I believe he did anyway) and the other guys in Quarrymen & the Beatles. Yoko could never scare up those emotions for anyone. I think John had trouble understanding and relating to women because of the mixed signals he got from Julia and the role model he had in Auntie Mimi. John absolutely had deep emotions based on the songs he wrote. Look at Yoko's compositions…haven't heard one of them that is a "love song"(though I am not a scholar of Yoko's music by any means). Why do you think it is so essential for Yoko to keep going the "myth" of John and Yoko after all these years? Do you think it is to protect the "brand" as it were? Just curious.

I'm sure a lot of people here would say it's just to protect the brand and make money, or whatever.  And there is really nothing cynical about that, because that is her job as the person who represents John, right? She was his wife when he died, so it's not like she can really escape it. She often says that once you are a Beatle's wife, you never escape. Not to mention that she is in a creative partnership with Sean.  I wonder what Sean would say if she just said, "To hell with your father."  I think she loved/loves John, in her own way.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death." --John Lennon

24 September 2013
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vonbontee
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I don't know why anyone would possibly think that Yoko doesn't love her own CHILDREN, for chrissakes.

I just want to play. I’d like to think I could work opposite Sinatra, B.B. King, the Beatles, or a polka band... - Jazz musician Rahsaan Roland Kirk, 1967
24 September 2013
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vonbontee said
I don't know why anyone would possibly think that Yoko doesn't love her own CHILDREN, for chrissakes.

I know, it's not like she's a monster.  She could be bossy and self-centered, but what do you expect from someone who grew up with servants?

Also, wouldn't Yoko want to publicize the positive aspects of John's life?  I would much rather see stories about how much John loved Yoko and wanted peace than hear her talk about how he was a violent junkie egomaniac.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death." --John Lennon

24 September 2013
10.54pm
Funny Paper
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I just had a thought which, however, is too outrageous to express (at least on this forum).

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...
24 September 2013
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walrusgumboot
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vonbontee said

I don't know why anyone would possibly think that Yoko doesn't love her own CHILDREN, for chrissakes.

one word….Kyoko.

....ya won't be interferin' wit the basic rugged concept o' me personality would ya madam?
25 September 2013
2.08am
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walrusgumboot said

vonbontee said

I don't know why anyone would possibly think that Yoko doesn't love her own CHILDREN, for chrissakes.

one word….Kyoko.

If she didn't love Kyoko, why did she spend so much time and money gaining legal custody, and tracking her down all across the world so she could be with her again?

Her love of Kyoko was actually the reason she didn't like Julian.  She was so heartbroken she couldn't be with her own daughter that she became bitter about what John had.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death." --John Lennon

25 September 2013
2.27am
trcanberra
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Expert Textpert said
I don't think it's exactly true that she can't love anyone, but I get the gist of what you guys are saying.  However, I also believe that if that if you can say that about Yoko, then it is also equally true that John was incapbale of truly loving women.

I have just been watching the videos on the "Lennon Legend" DVD which has a lot of home movies etc. on it, and while at times they are mugging for the cameras a lot of it looks genuine; so I think the answer to the original question is: Yes.

 

25 September 2013
8.25am
Ron Nasty
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Expert Textpert said

walrusgumboot said

vonbontee said

I don't know why anyone would possibly think that Yoko doesn't love her own CHILDREN, for chrissakes.

one word….Kyoko.

If she didn't love Kyoko, why did she spend so much time and money gaining legal custody, and tracking her down all across the world so she could be with her again?

Her love of Kyoko was actually the reason she didn't like Julian.  She was so heartbroken she couldn't be with her own daughter that she became bitter about what John had.

Many parents go through ugly divorces/breakdowns of relationship, which result in one parent having difficulty with access to their child, or in the worst cases, sees one parent kidnap the child and disappear to prevent access. That Yoko found herself in this situation says what about whether she is capable of love? I don't understand. Does this mean that all those who find themself in the same situation, and have no luck in finding their child, are incapable of love? That is the logical extension of the suggestion, though I would suggest that few of those who go, "You want proof? Kyoko!" actually know the story, and the outcome.

People act as if, with all the money she had access to, it should have been easy to find Kyoko. What is forgotten is that Anthony Cox was holed up in a religious cult known as The Walk with her for many years, until he "escaped" in 1977. Throughout the '70s, and into the early '80s, Cox lived under the name Holman, with Kyoko known as Ruth Holman. They sent Yoko a letter of condolence following John's assassination. The first contact from them since their disappearance.

Nothing more was heard until the mid-'80s, with Cox making a film about his involvement with The Walk, and his "escape". By this time they were again using their real names. Kyoko was listed as an associate producer on the film, and Cox gave a telephone interview around that time (1986).

Speaking of Kyoko, who at the time was 22, he said, "Because of our life-style, she was taught with tutors, studied in foreign schools and has a conception of the world that's very mature for someone her age."

A family friend, Eric Pement of Jesus People USA, said of her, "She's a marvelously bright woman, a real Christian who loves the Lord but is not a real straitlaced fundamentalist. She's in great shape, really together. She came out of the experience smelling like a rose."

Of his feelings about Yoko, Cox said, "I don't have any bitterness toward Yoko. We both made terrible mistakes. Although [the Lennons] nearly destroyed me, at the same time she really had tremendous remorse, and when I found that out later, that changed my whole attitude. I really felt sorry for her. Regardless of how much I suffered, she was suffering also, and I'm genuinely aware of that."

And of the possibility of the reunion between mother and daughter, he said that the decision was completely Kyoko's, adding, "She's a completely independent individual. After seeing what some of the aspects of public life are about, she realized that was one thing she did not want."

Yoko, in response, issued a public letter:

Dear Kyoko,

All these years there has not been one day I have not missed you. You are always in my heart. However, I will not make any attempt to find you now as I wish to respect your privacy. I wish you all the best in the world. If you ever wish to get in touch with me, know that I love you deeply and would be very happy to hear from you. But you should not feel guilty if you choose not to reach me. You have my respect, love and support forever.

Love, Mommy

After becoming a mother in the mid-90s, Kyoko did contact Yoko, and they were reunited in 1998, and while Kyoko remains largely out of the public eye, she is said to have a very good relationship with her mother and Sean. They have been photographed together over the years.

http://i1.wp.com/bobgruen.com/potda/0311Update/images/22611_IMG_3042.JPG?w=200

[Image Can Not Be Found]

http://i2.wp.com/25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6202mtvD21qgv804o1_400.jpg?w=200

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So, for those of you who regularly point at Yoko's relationship with Kyoko as evidence that she is incapable of normal emotions, I ask how the facts support your theories?

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
25 September 2013
2.37pm
DrBeatle
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Am I the only one who ever noticed the irony in John spending so much time, money, and effort trying to find Kyoko, to the point of kidnapping her and almost getting arrested for it, yet treating his own son (Julian) like shit and as if he didn't even exist?

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25 September 2013
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DrBeatle said
Am I the only one who ever noticed the irony in John spending so much time, money, and effort trying to find Kyoko, to the point of kidnapping her and almost getting arrested for it, yet treating his own son (Julian) like shit and as if he didn't even exist?

I can't post it because Youtube is blocked on this computer, but has anyone seen the video of someone interviewing Julian Lennon at a beach, while he's reclining on a beach chair, where he makes the claim that he was so neglected (can't remember exactly the number of times he says) that he only saw his father about 10 times in his whole life?

After watching that video, I started noticing the number of photos actually out there that depict John doing fun things with Julian, and they are actually a lot more numerous than Julian remembers.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death." --John Lennon

25 September 2013
3.16pm
WETSRoosa
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DrBeatle said
Am I the only one who ever noticed the irony in John spending so much time, money, and effort trying to find Kyoko, to the point of kidnapping her and almost getting arrested for it, yet treating his own son (Julian) like shit and as if he didn't even exist?

Which ties back to Yoko. With Yoko around, he almost never saw Julian (there is a picture of Julian with baby Sean in Cynthia's book, so it wasn't a COMPLETE estrangement), and one has to wonder if Yoko insisted on it being that way. It was MAY PANG of all people who encouraged John to re-connect with Julian, which he did.

And I never thought I'd say this in a million years, but… Kyoko's kinda cute. And for having different fathers, she and Sean could pass for complete sister-brother as much as they look alike.

"Daddy, just remember... Mommy's smarter than you. She said so."- My 4 year old
25 September 2013
3.28pm
DrBeatle
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Yoko did actively discourage contact between John and Julian, no matter how hard Cynthia tried. I don't care what else you can say about anything else she did, but that was evil for Yoko to do that. Even for kids of divorced parents, a boy needs to know his dad, and when your dad is one of the most famous men on the fucking PLANET, even more so.

"I know you, you know me; one thing I can tell you is you got to be free!"

 

Please Visit My Website, The Rock and Roll Chemist

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25 September 2013
4.51pm
mccartneyalarm
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Very excellent information, mja6758, about Yoko and the history of her search for Kyoko. I do remember much of what you brought up from my readings. I agree that Yoko is not a monster, and clearly, since she is human, she must have some feelings which were/are directed at her children. I am not arguing with you at all. I just can't forget how she treated Sean after he was born….rather ignoring him; sending him off with John whenever she could so she could take care of the family "business." Maybe that isn't proof she didn't love Sean, but it does make me question her priorities. As for Kyoko….it is quite true Tony Cox simply made it impossible for her to locate Kyoko. However, it was John who lead the crusade to find her at any cost. And, Yoko HAS to win at any cost. I can't help thinking that part of her parental crusade was due to the fact she insisted on beating Tony out of custody, not because she wanted her daughter back at all costs. Yoko was very clear throughout her life that she did not want to have children. She had many abortions (not that there is anything wrong with that). But, it is the reason she had difficulty conceiving. The way she kept John from Julian; the way she treated Sean as an infant; and her lack of interest in the role of motherhood her whole life all point to my doubts about the depth of her maternal instincts.

"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."

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