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Did Yoko love John?
22 August 2014
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Oudis
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I have read the whole thread. Frankly I have nothing to contribute to it; all this information is new to me, and there are many contradictory opinions. But I found it deeply disturbing, and depressing.

But I do have something to say. Yoko will just be remembered for a while –and just as John’s second wife. Then she’ll be forgotten. She’s nobody, nothing. John will be remembered for at least decades, and for being who he was.

"For in my nature I quested for beauty, but God, God hath sent me to sea for pearls." (from Jubilate Agno by Christopher Smart)

22 August 2014
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I'm not so sure about that. Yoko was established as an artist before she met John and had worked with the Fluxus group which is stilled studied by art students. She also worked with famous people like John Cage before she met John. John did not make her famous. Cynthia, on the other hand, was not famous for anything except being John's wife.

There are also many people, myself included, who still see John as "John and Yoko." The bed-ins for peace are iconic moments in history that will always be remembered.

Also, Yoko continues to make music and works with artists who are far more accepted by the cool kids of today than those Paul works with. For example: Yoko worked recently with Flaming Lips, members of Sonic Youth, and Yo La Tengo. Paul? Kanye West.

Yoko Ono is my favorite Beatle.
22 August 2014
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ahdn_paul_06 I think that is how they are as people. With Paul working with more popular acts while Yoko is more underground

Never say never, cause it's never 'never'

 

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22 August 2014
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Expert Textpert said
I'm not so sure about that. Yoko was established as an artist before she met John and had worked with the Fluxus group which is stilled studied by art students. She also worked with famous people like John Cage before she met John. John did not make her famous. Cynthia, on the other hand, was not famous for anything except being John's wife.

There are also many people, myself included, who still see John as "John and Yoko." The bed-ins for peace are iconic moments in history that will always be remembered.

Also, Yoko continues to make music and works with artists who are far more accepted by the cool kids of today than those Paul works with. For example: Yoko worked recently with Flaming Lips, members of Sonic Youth, and Yo La Tengo. Paul? Kanye West.

See? My opinion and yours differ; as I said, contradictory views on the same subject. You have valid arguments, which I still find unconvincing, while you don’t share my viewpoint. I cannot think of “John and Yoko”, I still feel she was an appendix to John –as many others in this forum feel. This could very well be a never-ending thread. But that’s OK, we are entitled to our own perceptions. I still find everything that has been discussed here rather depressing. Cheers, Oudis.

"For in my nature I quested for beauty, but God, God hath sent me to sea for pearls." (from Jubilate Agno by Christopher Smart)

23 August 2014
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Atlas
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Most marriages will end up being based on fear and compromise.

 

'Equality' in a marriage is a recipe for conflict………Usually it resolves into someone being the boss and the other partner mostly goes along with what the 'boss' wants

…….Or a shared 'bossship' develops. I'm guessing John was, 'allowed' to be nominal leader when it came to making music and taking care of Sean. Yoko everything else.

We all have our blind spots. True of men and women. I think all the evidence shows Yoko was slap bang in the middle of John's.

Outsiders can often see what's going on but know any inferred criticism is going to be slapped down. And maybe a friendship ended. It must have been frustrating for the other Beatles.

I reckon John loved Yoko and needed her.

I don't think Yoko loved John in the same way or with the same intensity. This made her stronger and him weaker.

 

But as I say……Love is blind and we got some good songs from it. Yoko kept everything else for herself. "Whatever gets you through the night" Yoko.

 

Footnote….. I recently found out that a bloke I often chat with over breakfast in a restaurant actually knew, "The man in the mac who said you gotta go back" They both worked together in British immigration and Yoko didn't have the correct visa for France…… But there was no stopping a determined John and Yoko……embarking on that long and winding road to The Dakota.  

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22 January 2015
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Expert Textpert said
I'm not so sure about that. Yoko was established as an artist before she met John and had worked with the Fluxus group which is stilled studied by art students. She also worked with famous people like John Cage before she met John. John did not make her famous. Cynthia, on the other hand, was not famous for anything except being John's wife.

There are also many people, myself included, who still see John as "John and Yoko." The bed-ins for peace are iconic moments in history that will always be remembered.

Also, Yoko continues to make music and works with artists who are far more accepted by the cool kids of today than those Paul works with. For example: Yoko worked recently with Flaming Lips, members of Sonic Youth, and Yo La Tengo. Paul? Kanye West.

While Yoko knew Cage and had "made art", it's a long way from that to claim that she's created any art that will last. To say "she continues to make music, etc.", you're merely acknowledging that she's the wife of John Lennon and a lot of people want to be close to that, but again, nothing she has done is of any quality, nothing of even historical interest.

While it's probably true that she did not singlehandedly break up the Beatles, it is undeniably true that she stifled the creativity of the greatest creative genius of the 20th century, one of the greatest of all time. The fact that Yoko goes out of her way to emphasize how unimpressed she was/is with the Beatles, the fact that she really seems to see her contributions to art as on a par with her husbands, is a sign of how pathetically narcissistic she really is. It's not her fault, either. It's just her brain chemistry. It's one of the great tragedies of art that Lennon, who needed so badly, stumbled into her and not somebody who could really help center and support him.

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22 January 2015
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vonbontee
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SirHuddlestonFuddleston said

While Yoko knew Cage and had "made art", it's a long way from that to claim that she's created any art that will last. To say "she continues to make music, etc.", you're merely acknowledging that she's the wife of John Lennon and a lot of people want to be close to that, but again, nothing she has done is of any quality, nothing of even historical interest.

While it's probably true that she did not singlehandedly break up the Beatles, it is undeniably true that she stifled the creativity of the greatest creative genius of the 20th century, one of the greatest of all time.

              I don't think either of those things are undeniably true - Yoko inspired many of John's great songs, hardly stifling him. And there are a few of us who think she's created some art (music!) that's quite striking. But hey, opinions.

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Expert Textpert

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22 January 2015
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They say opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one. And "everybody's got one" is a Lennon lyric, too. So, "stick it up your jumper."

And while we're on the subject of assholes, here's a quote from Elvis Presley: "If I had the wings of an angel and the balls of a big hairy coon, I'd fly to the highest mountain and cornhole the man in the moon."

Yoko Ono is my favorite Beatle.
22 January 2015
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georgiewood
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a-hard-days-night-ringo-8

 & heart, ET

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I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did'. Kurt Vonnegut, Timequake, 1997
27 January 2015
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Expert Textpert said
I'm not so sure about that. Yoko was established as an artist before she met John and had worked with the Fluxus group which is stilled studied by art students. She also worked with famous people like John Cage before she met John. John did not make her famous. 

Upon further review...

In Jonathan Gould's book, Can't Buy Me Love: The Beatles, Britain and America, he reveals the following nuggets.

Her first husband, Toshi Ichiyanagi, was the one who took a course with John Cage in 1958 after completing his studies at Juilliard. In turn, Cage introduced Toshi to the artists that would eventually become Fluxus. Toshi offered his and Yoko's loft as performance space and she was largely ignored. In the book he writes, 'Yoko's sense of thwarted ambition was taking a toll on their marriage. As she recalled, "My husband was famous in his own circle around Juilliard and John Cage and those people. I was having affairs and things like that to compensate, so our relationship deteriorated."' Gould also wrote that she struggled to be taken seriously. In 1961 Toshi returned to Japan and Yoko stayed in NY to pursue an affair with a gallery owner that led to her first show. After two failed attempts at shows in NY, she returned to Japan where her work was rudely received by Japanese avant-gardisits causing her to attempt suicide. After her recovery, her and Toshi lived with musician/filmmaker Tony Cox. This arrangement ended with her becoming pregnant, divorcing Toshi and marrying Cox. One thing led to another and they returned to NY where she became "associated with" Fluxus. She was invited to London only thanks to an article Cox wrote about her in a British art magazine. Since she finally achieved some measure of favor in England (not the US) for her Cut Piece performance, Barry Miles and John Dunbar offered her a show at the Indica. This of course is where she crossed paths with John Lennon. Gould dismisses her claim of not knowing who Lennon was by stating, "Never mind for that matter Allen Kuprow's (Fluxus co-founder) recollection of a conversation he had with Yoko before she left for London in which she surprised him by expressing a keen interest in the Beatles. As with many of her most brazen prevarications, this one probably sprouted from a tiny seed of truth. At the time of their first meeting, John had just completed his part in How I Won The War. His hair was quite short and he had recently adopted the wire frame spectacles...making it quite possible she did not recognize him on first sight. Once she did know who he was however, it would have been completely out of character for a pair of art world gypsies like Yoko and Tony Cox to have ignored John's potential as a benefactor. Whatever else he was, even "in the art world", a Beatle was a millionaire." Later, he writes "Though the couple (Yoko/Cox) was viewed with suspicion in Underground circles where their NY brand of hustle was felt to be uncool, the mainstream press in Britain found her antics...with her little girl voice and her grown up ego to be richly entertaining. This left her free to represent herself  as a major artist in the US and Japan." Gould says it was this that let her perpetuate the notion that she studied with Cage, performed happenings with Fluxus... and so on. She then manipulated her way into John's path in various ways outlined in the book.  

Having read all of this, one would be hard pressed to say with any degree of certainty that she was famous before meeting John.

Am I the only one who spots a pattern? In my view, she was a manipulative opportunist who used sex to get what she wanted - attention. She may have eventually loved John in some way, but I for one do not believe it started that way.

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28 January 2015
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Thanks for all that Zig……..I categorically concur with your assessment summed up so succinctly below:

"she was a manipulative opportunist who used sex to get what she wanted - attention."

To bring things up-to-date…….

She is a manipulative opportunist who uses John's memory, her part in his history and Sean to get what she wants - attention.

 

I don't think Yoko capable of a selfless love.

29 January 2015
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If Cage "largely ignored" Yoko, then why did he invite her to go on tour with him in 1962, and why are there recordings of the performances?

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bro.....ears_.html

http://www.amazon.com/John-Cag.....B008CLI3MG

From the slate.com article above:

"But to hold onto such a dismissive portrait of Ono at the expense of the rest of her career, you have to decide quite a lot of other artists have either been dupes or bad-faith aesthetic actors. That list would include jazz legend Ornette Coleman, who played trumpet on Ono’s version of Plastic Ono Band (released simultaneously with the Lennon solo record of the same name) and members of the Fluxus movement (whose works the Museum of Modern Art has been investing in of late)."

and...

"It’s long been reported that Ono once performed with John Cage’s retinue—it was mentioned, for instance, in the Cage biography I reviewed here at Slate—but sadly, there has been scant audio documentation of the period that predated John Lennon’s attraction to the artist as a young woman. That changed earlier this month, with the release of a three-volume archival set of recordings preserved during Cage’s tour through Japan back in 1962. The second disc (they are sold individually) features Ono contributing vocals to Cage’s “26’55.988,” which also includes two pianists and a string player."

Yoko Ono is my favorite Beatle.
29 January 2015
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Expert Textpert said

If Cage "largely ignored" Yoko, then why did he invite her to go on tour with him in 1962, and why are there recordings of the performances?

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bro.....ears_.html

http://www.amazon.com/John-Cag.....B008CLI3MG

That would be a great question for Mr. Gould. Could it be that those two performances were the "two failed attempts at shows in NY" that he referred to? I'm not sure why she would leave NY to go to London by invitation (only after Cox wrote about her in a British art magazine, mind you) if the shows were successful.

I understand your defense of Yoko because I know you admire her. More power to you. I still maintain she would have faded away into further obscurity had she never met John. Horses for courses.
apple01

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29 January 2015
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Thanks for all the information you posted on Ono Yoko (the way her name is said in Japan) @Zig. It made me think of another vampire of fame and success who used to swing from one man to another looking for recognition and fortune: Gala, who was involved with Paul Éluard, Max Ernst, and Giorgio de Chirico, until she finally met Salvador Dalí. Those who know something about the Surrealist movement will know what I’m talking about.

"For in my nature I quested for beauty, but God, God hath sent me to sea for pearls." (from Jubilate Agno by Christopher Smart)

29 January 2015
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Zig said

Expert Textpert said

If Cage "largely ignored" Yoko, then why did he invite her to go on tour with him in 1962, and why are there recordings of the performances?

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bro.....ears_.html

http://www.amazon.com/John-Cag.....B008CLI3MG

That would be a great question for Mr. Gould. Could it be that those two performances were the "two failed attempts at shows in NY" that he referred to? I'm not sure why she would leave NY to go to London by invitation (only after Cox wrote about her in a British art magazine, mind you) if the shows were successful.

I understand your defense of Yoko because I know you admire her. More power to you. I still maintain she would have faded away into further obscurity had she never met John. Horses for courses.
apple01

No, the performances with Cage took place in Japan.

Yoko Ono is my favorite Beatle.
29 January 2015
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Well before the question can be answered, we must figure out what love is.

Never say never, cause it's never 'never'

 

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29 January 2015
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It just seems very clear to me that people will say anything to support their dislike of Yoko Ono. The author above doesn't mention that Yoko went on tour with John Cage in Japan because it doesn't support his argument that John Cage ignored her. The evidence points to the opposite--that he respected her as an artist. It's revisionist history, the same old racist, misogynist bile being recycled under a new, politically correct banner.

Yoko Ono is my favorite Beatle.
30 January 2015
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Expert Textpert said
[...] It's revisionist history, the same old racist, misogynist bile being recycled under a new, politically correct banner.

If you imply that some of us aren’t great fans of Yoko because she’s Asian and a woman, my answer would be a categorical no. I have had great female friends and I’m proud to say that the three women in my life have been great ladies; I’m no misogynist. As for racism, well, I felt so attracted to Japanese culture that I lived there for a couple of years. Personally –this is just why I don’t like her– I think that the John I loved, the musician that composed Strawberry Fields Forever and I Am The Walrus, somehow disappeared when Yoko came into the equation –and I don’t like John the politician, or the guy that showed his butt to the rest of the world. That’s me. Now, perhaps there are some people out there who are racist and misogynistic, but you can’t say we all are.  

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30 January 2015
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Yeah there's no need to bring race/sex into this, we're all a bunch of good eggs in this forum.

@Oudis , that's an interesting comparison you made, that Yoko-as-Gala thing. The way they both became muse to a pair of geniuses - how many of Dali's paintings did she make her way into, as compared to the %age of John's Yoko-inspired songs?

@Zig, I don't think it's a controversial opinion to speculate on whether or not she'd have been forgotten had she never married who she married. Who knows the way the avant-garde art world works?

Now let's all kick back and listen to Yoko not shriek AT ALL!

Indian music can't be listened to the same way you hear rock and roll. You cannot do 'Yea Yea' and 'Go Man Go' - Ravi Shankar

30 January 2015
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parlance said
Didn't know where else to put this, but someone posted this link elsewhere - it's an interview with Reggie King in which he mentions his part in bringing John and Yoko together:

You knew Yoko Ono early as well, is that right?
Yeah, I met Yoko at the Middle Earth in Covent Garden. She said “Reggie, you look very much like John Lennon” – which a few people had said before because I guess I do look a bit like him. “I’d really like to meet John” she said. As we had the same producer as The Beatles she wouldn’t leave me alone. It wasn’t me she wanted, it was John. So I said, “Look, if it helps, John does occasionally go to The Speakeasy. I see him there sometimes on a Tuesday night.” The very next Tuesday she was there. Before, she’d had all the flower dresses on, the psychedelic outfit, but in The Speakeasy she had the West End girl look. All smooth and smart. That night Paul and John came in. Paul said hello. And John used to say to me (adopts heavy scouse accent) “Aye, ye Action Man!” That was all he ever used to say, but he spoke to me at least! Yoko stood there dumbfounded, “Wow, you really do know The Beatles.” Within fifteen minutes she was in there and the rest is history.

parlance

Well, if there's anything to be redeemed from this thread, it's that we now definitively know who was responsible for breaking up The Beatles.

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