Did Yoko love John? | John Lennon | Fab forum

Please consider registering
Guest

Log In Register

Register | Lost password?
Advanced Search

— Forum Scope —

  
 

— Match —

   

— Forum Options —

   

Minimum search word length is 4 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters

Did Yoko love John?
22 August 2013
4.24pm
Expert Textpert
In bed.
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 1213
Member Since:
18 April 2013
Offline

 

I just finished The Last Days of John Lennon by Frederic Seaman, and he paints a pretty grim picture of Yoko Ono.  Up til now I had only read books that Yoko approved.  After reading the book, I think that John loved Yoko, or at the very least needed her emotionally.

But Seaman paints Yoko very negatively...always spending John's money, constantly on the phone from morning to night, never available to have lunch with John (who had to make appointments to see her).  According to Seaman, she was very depressed when she found out she couldn't have another child, which must have been a way to further control John, because, according to the book she had no interest in Sean whatosever, was almost never with him, and her only parental guidance was to tell the staff to give him whatever he wanted.  She had an affair with Sam Green right under John's nose.  And, apparently she didn't even mourn when John died.  It was just business as usual and immediately using his posthumous surge in popularity to make money.

Is this true?  Do these things mean that she didn't love John?  He had affairs as well, such as the one with May Pang.  It's hard to say.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death." --John Lennon

22 August 2013
4.56pm
mccartneyalarm
Carnegie Hall
Forum Posts: 243
Member Since:
9 July 2013
Offline

I absolutely loved the Seaman book! As with anything, some of it could be exaggerated. But, Seaman was John's personal assistant and confidant. And, much of what he stated in his book, I've found in other sources. I am reading "Dakota Days" now (written by tarot card reader at the same time Seaman was at the Dakota). He seems to corraborate a good deal of what Seaman claims. Did John love Yoko? I think he did at first. But, she really was after his money and the power it brought. I just read how she really got off on being John's rep at the Beatles Apple meetings. She was away from him more than she was with him. She was into their "business"...buying real estate and cows and such. That irritated John. He kept saying he wanted a real wife. I don't think Yoko is capable of loving anyone (to include her kids...look at how she treated her daughter, Kyoto) She liked that John was rich and famous and that fact allowed her do her "art" the way she wanted to do it. She was afraid of losing John cuz that would mean she couldn't record anymore and it would end her vast source of income. She loved to control John. She used numerology as part of the plot to keep him where she wanted him. John needed to be controlled,I guess. She did stop being intimate with John. And, she did have that affair. (She had an affair with a musician in Chicago, I think, while John was on the Last Weekend). Anyway, bottom line, I don't think John believed Yoko loved him (how could he?) which fed into his primal fear of abandonment that he carried after Julia and Alf left him (and his Uncle, too). I don't think Yoko ever could love. Very interesting...and sad. Had John lived, I really feel that he and Yoko would have split up eventually.

"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."

22 August 2013
5.35pm
HeyTrud
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
Candlestick Park
Forum Posts: 538
Member Since:
14 February 2013
Offline

I have read a couple of books on John.   I also read (I think it was in "The Many Lives of John Lennon"?) much of what mccartneyalarm wrote above.  In the last years, John was a househusband and caregiver to Sean, Yoko totally absorbed herself in the business.  Always on the phone, always making deals.  No time for John or her kids.  She had much control over John & that was sad.   I have always found Yoko to be a rather cold character....business winning out over family at all times.  Sad. :(

"....take a sad song & make it Meilleur"....

22 August 2013
5.41pm
DrBeatle
Boston
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 1439
Member Since:
29 November 2012
Offline

I don't think she really loved him in the sense the rest of us consider love. As much as I dislike her, and for whatever bizarre and (in my opinion) wrong-headed reason, John loved her. Or perhaps I should say he needed her and it was that sort of love. I never thought she loved him the way a women should love a man the same way I don't think he loved her the true way a man should love a woman, although I think he was closer to the ideal than she was. I think she loved his fame, the infamy, the money, the access, etc that it brought her. And she certainly loved the control she had over John. I'm still of the belief that, on balance, he was pretty miserable for the last 5 years of his life, especially the last few.  One thing is for certain...one could never confuse John and Yoko's "love story" (as she's mythologized it over the last 33 years) to the true love Paul and Linda had.

"I know you, you know me; one thing I can tell you is you got to be free!"

 

Please Visit My Website, The Rock and Roll Chemist

Twitter: @blackbookblur

 

22 August 2013
6.02pm
SatanHimself
Hades-on-Leith
Candlestick Park
Forum Posts: 697
Member Since:
16 August 2012
Offline

Short answer is "yes, but...".

E is for 'Ergent'.
22 August 2013
8.13pm
SatanHimself
Hades-on-Leith
Candlestick Park
Forum Posts: 697
Member Since:
16 August 2012
Offline

I guess I should follow that up with the *but* part:

I don't think Yoko was ever truly capable of love.  I know it's been thrown around before, but I truly believe Yoko had no capacity for empathy.  It's called Narcissistic Personality Disorder.  She was able to express emotions and feelings for things that were convenient for her.  John was extremely convenient and his own abandonment issues fed her ego-centrism.  She loved Sean because he was "hers".  She loathed Julian because he was not.  

Look at one of the very last professional photographs of the two, and it tells you everything you need to know about their relationship:

 

The following people thank SatanHimself for this post:

Oudis, ...ontherun
E is for 'Ergent'.
22 August 2013
8.43pm
DrBeatle
Boston
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 1439
Member Since:
29 November 2012
Offline

Great point. John is besotted...she good naturedly tolerates it. It would explain why she was almost repulsed by physical contact from John while he craved it.

The following people thank DrBeatle for this post:

...ontherun

"I know you, you know me; one thing I can tell you is you got to be free!"

 

Please Visit My Website, The Rock and Roll Chemist

Twitter: @blackbookblur

 

22 August 2013
9.15pm
Linde
The Netherlands
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 2179
Member Since:
21 November 2012
Offline

I never really thought about this, tbh. But, now you're bringing it up, it is another interesting subject. 

I think it was a situation of him needing her, like most of you have already said. But Yoko needed him too. They were better off without each other, but John needed someone to hold on to and was afraid of being abandoned, she needed him for all her art stuff.

I didn't know she never cared for Sean, I always thought she loved him and sort of tried to count Julian out, because he wasn't hers indeed.

I can't really say if Yoko ''isn't capable of loving anyone'', but she does always come across as a cold person. Even when she talks about John, it's very different from when Olivia talks about George for example.

And last picture really says more than a thousand words.

22 August 2013
9.44pm
meanmistermustard
Moderator



Forum Posts: 10554
Member Since:
1 May 2011
Offline

I think Yoko did love John at the beginning, probably a very strong initial love (a besotted absorbing love) existed between them and that kept them wrapped up in each other for a time and all the events and projects they did together in the early years. However slowly it began to fade and became more of an amicable arrangement for both parties before eventually they split, as is often the case, in '73. (Wasnt Yoko the one getting more respect and praise from the critics, her stock being higher than Johns?)

Whatever feelings Yoko had for John (and for everything that came with him (money, prestige, opportunity)) were then rekindled during their split and seeing him out there making music, and it being well received (US number 1 single and album, concert appearance with Elton), and they got back together. They quickly died and it became an arrangement again with John in the Dakato and Yoko doing her thing, occupied with the business and happy with what she had. John's need and depency for Yoko or that mother figure he so desired keeping him there (and giving Yoko license to do as she wanted with whom she wanted) as well as not wanting to walk out on another son and having nothing to do with him at all (repeating the past with Julian and his father Freddie with John).

The johnandyoko story right from the start in '66 to the end is bullshit in my opinion and i heavily doubt they would have been together till they were old and  grey if John hadnt of been killed with a divorce coming in the early 80's.

On another note - Has anyone read or even heard of 'Nowhere Man: The Final Days of John Lennon" by Robert Rosen? Its another book that focuses on the Dakota period and having found it lingering in a cupboard was thinking of adding it to the pile of books started but never completed. (This should be in another thread but i cant remember which thread that was).

Don’t make your love suffer insecurities, trade the baggage of self to set another one free. ('Paper Skin' - Kendall Payne)
23 August 2013
9.13am
fabfouremily
Sitting in an English garden
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 2949
Member Since:
3 May 2012
Offline
10

Their relationship has always intrigued me in a way - on the surface they made it look so simple as it was all about eternal love and johnandyoko and all that, but what they had was actually very complex. He needed her beause he saw her as a mother figure (I'm no expert, but I don't think that's the best start to a relationship), and her, well, I don't know. I don't really understand Yoko. I always thought that she seemed so cold and independant because that's how a lot of Japanese women are but as I've learnt more about her, I've begun to see her differently. She seems a very strange woman indeed. It makes me quite sad to think that John wasn't happy in his final years, and that he had to make appointments to see her.

Did he love her? Yes, I think so. A lot, in the first few years. Was it a straight-foward love? No, far from it.

''We're just knocked out. We heard about the sell out. You gotta get an album out, you owe it to the people. We're so happy we can hardly count.''

23 August 2013
9.24am
LadyBay
Following The Sun
London Palladium
Forum Posts: 106
Member Since:
16 July 2013
Offline
11

That point about how different it was when Olivia talks about George is so right Linde.  Also true of Linda and Paul - both those women's love and admiration for their husbands just shone through them the in the way they talked and the sparkle in their eyes.

You'd like to think that it's just that Yoko isn't the demonstrative type that she doesn't come across the same way, but it's her actions over many years that makes you question the strength of her love for John. 

Poor guy-  I know, as an adult, it was partly his own fault  but he never seemed to catch a break as far as his personal life was concerned.

 

"Try to realise it's all within yourself - no-one else can make you change"

23 August 2013
1.56pm
DrBeatle
Boston
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 1439
Member Since:
29 November 2012
Offline
12

You all make excellent points. The ironic thing that I can never wrap my head around is how much happier and HIMSELF (his true self) John was with May, yet he tossed it all away to go running back to Yoko when she beckoned, even though during his entire separation from her, he spent nearly all of it bitching about her!

"I know you, you know me; one thing I can tell you is you got to be free!"

 

Please Visit My Website, The Rock and Roll Chemist

Twitter: @blackbookblur

 

23 August 2013
4.10pm
parlance
Slaggers
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 5597
Member Since:
8 November 2012
Offline
13

meanmistermustard said

On another note - Has anyone read or even heard of 'Nowhere Man: The Final Days of John Lennon" by Robert Rosen? Its another book that focuses on the Dakota period and having found it lingering in a cupboard was thinking of adding it to the pile of books started but never completed. (This should be in another thread but i cant remember which thread that was).

I haven't. Is this the one based on the diaries that Fred Seaman stole?

parlance

 

Beware of sadness. It can hit you. It can hurt you. Make you sore and what is more, that is not what you are here for. - George

Check out my fan video for Paul's song "Appreciate" at YouTube and Vimeo.

23 August 2013
5.08pm
mccartneyalarm
Carnegie Hall
Forum Posts: 243
Member Since:
9 July 2013
Offline
14

First...I have read "Nowhere Man"...I highly recommend it. It does corroborate much of the Seaman book (and the book "Dakota Days" by Charlie Swan). To address Yoko's being incapable of love...she was married twice before. The first, I believe, was a guy she met in college. It didn't last long, as I recall (I can't find the reference to that relationship in my Lennon library). I seem to recall she married him to appease her parents. She did not have a good relationship with them, especially her mother. Her realtionship to Tony Cox was almost completely a business deal. Their whole relationship revolved around his raising money to help get her avant garde art "seen" by the right people.  She did not want Kyoto, but went ahead with the pregnancy anyway. I believe she had several abortions prior to her having Kyoto. So, based on those past two relationships and the fact she did not form close girlfriend relationships, I'd say she has a limited or non-existent ability to love. She is narcisistic. She does not have the ability to show empathy. And she is completely self-absorbed. John was seeking (subconciously) the only kind of woman he knew how to want...a Julia. "Mother" filled that need, and because of Julia, he carried a tremendous fear of abandonment. You all have done a great job, in this discussion, of summing up Yoko. By the way, today is the day that John and Cynthia were married.

The following people thank mccartneyalarm for this post:

Oudis

"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."

23 August 2013
5.14pm
fabfouremily
Sitting in an English garden
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 2949
Member Since:
3 May 2012
Offline
15

She certainly doesn't seem to show human emotions like most people. At first I thought it was something she just did for the cameras (either because she wanted to get publicity - there's no such thing as bad publicity, or because she didn't know how to act or she didn't want to reveal too much), but as I've read more about her, it appears she's just like that. Incapable of forming a close relationship with anyone, expressing sorrow or any other strong emotion, even just saying something simple and to-the-point.

''We're just knocked out. We heard about the sell out. You gotta get an album out, you owe it to the people. We're so happy we can hardly count.''

23 August 2013
5.25pm
mccartneyalarm
Carnegie Hall
Forum Posts: 243
Member Since:
9 July 2013
Offline
16

She was all about what people thought of her. She used her numerologist and her tarot card reader to "orchestrate" events or appearances that, according to the numbers and whatever is found in tarot cards, would put her in the best light possible. She was completely obsessed by this. She was constantly asking, "what would people think?"

"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."

23 August 2013
5.43pm
fabfouremily
Sitting in an English garden
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 2949
Member Since:
3 May 2012
Offline
17

Somehow that seems to be totally against the whole idea surrounding A-G.

''We're just knocked out. We heard about the sell out. You gotta get an album out, you owe it to the people. We're so happy we can hardly count.''

23 August 2013
6.40pm
Expert Textpert
In bed.
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 1213
Member Since:
18 April 2013
Offline

I think it is a bit too far to say she is incapable of emotion.  She smiles, she cries.  But she has a stoic personality.

It is true that Yoko helped to enforce John's isolation in the Dakota, but that was partly becaue he himself was terrified of the fans, terrified of being recognized, and obsessed with the idea that a fan would shoot him.  In a way, it was a very good situation for John to just hang out while his wife did all the business.  He read whatever he wanted to, listened to whatever records he wanted, and had whatever he wanted delivered to him by assistants, while he spent time lounging around in the bedroom, the kitchen, etc.

John was aware of the Sam Green affair to some degree and was jealous, but he was very tolerant for whatever reason, and didn't feel that the affair was a big deal.  I believe his comment was "everyone has their flings."  He probably realized that he couldn't fault Yoko for what he himself did.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death." --John Lennon

23 August 2013
7.42pm
GoodDayTaxman
A Beginning
Forum Posts: 2
Member Since:
23 August 2013
Offline
19

Not sure if Yoko loved John, but John ALWAYS loved Yoko. Check out his song "I Know (I Know)" on Mind Games (which was released JUST after the long weekend in 1973.) To me, it sounds like he wrote the song as an apology to Yoko.

23 August 2013
7.56pm
Ron Nasty
"Where have you been?" "I'm not telling you..."
Apple rooftop
Forum Posts: 3231
Member Since:
17 December 2012
Offline

Actually, Mind Games was the last album before the "lost weekend". The "lost weekend" spanned 1974-75, and the albums produced during it were Rock 'n' Roll and Walls and Bridges.

Btw, welcome to the forum. If you want to say anything about yourself, there is a "Introduce yourself to the forum" thread in All Together Now.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
Forum Timezone: Europe/London

Most Users Ever Online: 597

Currently Online: MrMoonlight, Beatleva, Sugarplum fairy, Lucy in the Sky
55 Guest(s)

Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)

Top Posters:

meanmistermustard: 10554

mr. Sun king coming together: 6916

Ahhh Girl: 5635

parlance: 5597

Annadog40: 4863

mithveaen: 4651

Zig: 4609

Mr. Kite: 4402

Ron Nasty: 3231

fabfouremily: 2949

Member Stats:

Guest Posters: 88

Members: 2699

Moderators: 4

Admins: 2

Forum Stats:

Groups: 3

Forums: 34

Topics: 3146

Posts: 141606

Newest Members: uaillouetshon, eolledelm, void, lematalk65, rzleromer

Moderators: Ahhh Girl: 5635, meanmistermustard: 10554, Zig: 4609, Joe: 3497

Administrators: Joe: 3497, Ellie: 1

Members Birthdays
Today: None
Upcoming: None