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Did John Lennon have gay leanings?
7 October 2013
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robert said
So here's my 2 cents – and over priced at that.

It would not have been at unusual or unlikely that when John and Paul were young teenagers they may have experimented sexually with each other – or that they may have experimented with other male friends when younger but not each other.

This behavior amongst adolescents is quite common (for boys and girls – especially in the 50's and 60's). This had less to do with being gay or bisexual and more to do with growing awareness of sexuality and what young teens do as they explore – they explore with their friends never considering the gay/hetero implications – again that was more true in the 50's and 60's when such activities were less public.

After that, I personally believe that John had some sort of crush on Paul – sexual and romantic – and that Paul used it to control John in the emerging years of Help, Rubber Soul etc.

I believe that during Pepper MMT days, Paul overplayed this hand with John who then met Yoko – I think John shared with Yoko his feelings about Paul which is why Yoko began her fierce campaign of keeping John and Paul apart from each other (all through White Album etc to John's death). And she eventually turned John against Paul. Yoko's demeanor towards Paul always struck me as jealous more than anything else. John talked about Paul and Yoko in equal emotional terms.

I think in a strange ironic twist, once John's relationship with Yoko was cemented John began to be colder to Paul, this rejection hurt Paul in a deep way – all of which shows up during Let It Be and Abbey Road and the breakup years following.

During Let It Be the movie, what I see is Paul trying to win John's affections back – but it was too late.

But I see Paul desperately trying to reignite John's love for him.

I don't think John and Paul actually had a physical or sexual relationship – unless during their early teen years they might have, as some close boys will- but that sort of "love" was there between them. I think "Oh Darling" was written for John – I think I read that they actually called each "darling" as jokey nicknames. And I know John once said that he thought a lot of Paul's songs were written about him (Beatle songs – not just Ram – but like Hey Jude).

And there are the stories of John crying for Paul or whatever during their early years.

So overall I think John had a strong attraction for Paul, Paul manipulated John with that attraction, they never really consummated, Yoko eventually stole John from Paul, and then Paul acted like a jilted lover. Which over the years is how John described their relationship.

Very little fact, just my opinion.

 

That makes perfect sense to me. Good insights!

"This Beatles talk bores me to death." --John Lennon

7 October 2013
3.31pm
walrusgumboot
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Very little fact, indeed.
The love one has for a brother-familial or spiritual-runs deeper than probably all others besides, in most cases, spouses and children. Lennon & McCartney referred to each other as brothers. The last time in his life John mentioned Paul, hours before he was murdered, he called him his 'brother'. When asked if John had any homosexual tendencies, May Pang, who lived with, loved with, and generally looked after John's drunken out of control ass for eighteen months, was asked this topical question, she had a very good laugh and basically said absolutely NOT! Hey Jude? A love song for John? Please. Oh Darling? Oy. Darling used to be a common Irish term of endearment for a close male friend, not unlike 'our kid' referring to your younger brother. I could continue piling on my two cents but think y'all get the point….

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7 October 2013
4.55pm
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Wow! This is intense! You all are making some excellent observations. But, saying Paul used John's feelings for him to control John; saying "Oh Darling" was written for John (John always knew Paul wrote Hey Jude for Julian…he just didn't embrace that); and saying that their writing their songs on the beds at Mendips when there was precious little room for them to do it any place else…and making that mean something is hard to swallow. I'm not saying y'all aren't right. It will take me awhile to adjust if it is true. Kinda' like saying we never really did land on the moon in 1969. I'm gonna have to change my whole perception of things. I do give May Pang great and extreme credibility as she didn't have anything to gain or lose in telling her story. She didn't need to spin anything…she just told us what went on when she was with him. So, I don't know. Fascinating topic! I almost feel like it is forbidden territory.

"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."

7 October 2013
5.43pm
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Just had another thought. In the book "Dakota Days" by John Green (Charlie Swan, the tarot card reader)…Charlie recounts a conversation with Yoko about how Yoko perceived Paul was attracted to her. "Paul was always the cute one and John was jealous of that. When I first met Paul I was attracted to him. I'm like that when I really like someone. I try to get close to the guy who 's close to the guy I like. That's why I was getting close to John, so I would be near Paul if he wanted to make a move. And Paul was attracted to me, I could see that. But he couldn't handle the idea of being attracted to somebody John was with because that would be a violation of the fraternity rules…..So then Paul was very frustrated because he wanted me and felt that he couldn't have me. That's why he always acted so mean to me." pp. 232 Not saying Charlie Swan has any credibility (he has some, but not much)…but it shows the truth is all about perception. (And, I think Yko's really fooling herself if she believes any of this about Paul!)

"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."

7 October 2013
5.53pm
Ahhh Girl
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mccartneyalarm said
Just had another thought. In the book "Dakota Days" by John Green (Charlie Swan, the tarot card reader)…Charlie recounts a conversation with Yoko about how Yoko perceived Paul was attracted to her. "Paul was always the cute one and John was jealous of that. When I first met Paul I was attracted to him. I'm like that when I really like someone. I try to get close to the guy who 's close to the guy I like. That's why I was getting close to John, so I would be near Paul if he wanted to make a move. And Paul was attracted to me, I could see that. But he couldn't handle the idea of being attracted to somebody John was with because that would be a violation of the fraternity rules…..So then Paul was very frustrated because he wanted me and felt that he couldn't have me. That's why he always acted so mean to me." pp. 232 Not saying Charlie Swan has any credibility (he has some, but not much)…but it shows the truth is all about perception. (And, I think Yko's really fooling herself if she believes any of this about Paul!)

If Green is to be believed on this point, Yoko's delusions about Paul may be even bigger than mine. That would make her down right batty.

 

7 October 2013
6.43pm
Hannah
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Wow, I've never heard that before. Yoko fancied Paul? I cannot possibly believe Paul was attracted to Yoko, nothing against her but I can't see her being Paul's type. He was typically attracted to pretty girly girls not mad artists with all that hair surrounding her face. Anything's possible though!

There are some really interesting theories here and I can't make up my mind. I've always thought Oh Darling was written for John, not in a romantic way more as Paul feeling a bit insecure (I'll never make it alone) sad that their friendship was falling apart and John had someone else to focus his attentions on (when you told me, you didn't need me anymore etc) and reassuring John that whatever problems they had he wouldn't want to hurt him. The way they both acted after the split was very much like a divorced couple and that's probably why we wonder about the exact nature of their relationship. John seemed to be too angry at Paul and the anger in my opinion was somewhat unjustified as Paul hadn't really done anything wrong. He wanted the Beatles to stay together, John was the one who wanted to run off with Yoko and leave Paul behind. 

7 October 2013
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For whatever reason, Paul had something against Yoko.  If he was jealous because he himself liked Yoko, that could explain why he left that hateful note for John and Yoko that said "You and your Jap tart think you're hot shit."

…or maybe it was John he liked.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death." --John Lennon

7 October 2013
8.25pm
Hannah
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Expert Textpert said
For whatever reason, Paul had something against Yoko.  If he was jealous because he himself liked Yoko, that could explain why he left that hateful note for John and Yoko that said "You and your Jap tart think you're hot shit."

…or maybe it was John he liked.

Oh no, I've never heard that before, did he really say that? I'm disappointed if he did as that's borderline racist and I thought better of him. 

He could have been jealous purely because Yoko was taking John away from him (as a friend) for whatever reason Yoko felt threatened by Paul and wanted to keep John away from him as much as possible. In her mind at least Paul was a threat to her and John's relationship, possibly because Paul was one of the few people who could control John to an extent. 

I do think that it's possible that John and Paul shared a kiss while under the influence of LSD. Paul has spoken before about a trip they had together where they were staring into each other's eyes for hours on end. If John was attracted to him it's not be beyond belief to imagine John leaning in for a kiss and Paul, in his drugged out state, letting him. I think that would have been as far as it went though. 

7 October 2013
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Yes, it was in a typewritten note that Paul left in an envelope on his mantel, addressed to John and Yoko with no stamp or mailing address.  When they opened it up, it was just that one sentence.  Their jaws dropped and then Paul walked into the room and said, "Oh yeah, I just did that for a laugh," or something like that.  It was when they had no place to go and were staying with Paul, after John separated from Cynthia.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death." --John Lennon

7 October 2013
10.03pm
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Thanks Expert Texpert. Wow, that does sound like jealousy on Paul's part. 

7 October 2013
10.21pm
WhereArtEsteban
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I actually lol'd at the explanation of that quote. Adorable

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7 October 2013
10.35pm
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There are rumours that Yoko made a beeline for Paul before John but there is nothing substantial to back them up. As for that letter Paul supposedly left on the mantelpiece what is the source? From what i've read Paul put both John and Yoko up for a while in his house when they needed a place to stay (no doubt leading to stories that Paul slept with John (reviving a 6 day romance back in 1960 for a few nights) and wrote on the walls in bright paint that Yoko was a foreign bitch and should piss off back to Japan).

There has been so much written about Paul, Yoko and John over the years of which so much should be ignored or at the very least highly questioned. Its what makes this thread pretty tiresome on a personal level.

"Well, probably we'll sell less records, less people'll go to see the film, we'll write less songs, and we'll all die of failure" (John Lennon 8/64)
7 October 2013
10.40pm
trcanberra
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walrusgumboot said
Methinks people are lookin for something where something isn't….

I think it's more like "where there's smoke there's fire".

I think some of the speculation here is stretching things, but still feel it possible that John 'dabbled' a little but didn't really have persistent 'leanings'.

7 October 2013
10.42pm
trcanberra
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meanmistermustard said
There are rumours that Yoko made a beeline for Paul before John but there is nothing substantial to back them up. As for that letter Paul supposedly left on the mantelpiece what is the source? From what i've read Paul put both John and Yoko up for a while in his house when they needed a place to stay (no doubt leading to stories that Paul slept with John (reviving a 6 day romance back in 1960 for a few nights) and wrote on the walls in bright paint that Yoko was a foreign bitch and should piss off back to Japan).

There has been so much written about Paul, Yoko and John over the years of which so much should be ignored or at the very least highly questioned. Its what makes this thread pretty tiresome on a personal level.

We may be reaching the 'Day in the Life' aaah stage :)

7 October 2013
10.46pm
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trcanberra said

walrusgumboot said
Methinks people are lookin for something where something isn't….

I think it's more like "where there's smoke there's fire".

I think some of the speculation here is stretching things, but still feel it possible that John 'dabbled' a little but didn't really have persistent 'leanings'.

 

Yes but it seems to be non-associated people making their own firewood, getting their matches out, and starting one themselves. Paul says he would have known if John was and I go by him more than some nth generation outsider who spoke to Margaret who knew Simon who once had a quick glance at a note Bill had which John supposedly wrote to Stu. It seems that folks need to discredit Paul so have to have him having an affair with John which is complete bullshit. It wouldn't surprise or bother me if John had experimented (for a better word) but we will never know for sure - and just because he hung around with transvestites or went to a gay club doesn't mean he had sex with men.

"Well, probably we'll sell less records, less people'll go to see the film, we'll write less songs, and we'll all die of failure" (John Lennon 8/64)
7 October 2013
10.47pm
Hannah
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That's not even possible! paul-mccartney

It's fun to speculate about these things but the truth will never be known, any so called evidence can be contradicted and John isn't even here anymore to confuse us further. 

7 October 2013
10.49pm
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meanmistermustard said
There are rumours that Yoko made a beeline for Paul before John but there is nothing substantial to back them up. As for that letter Paul supposedly left on the mantelpiece what is the source? From what i've read Paul put both John and Yoko up for a while in his house when they needed a place to stay (no doubt leading to stories that Paul slept with John (reviving a 6 day romance back in 1960 for a few nights) and wrote on the walls in bright paint that Yoko was a foreign bitch and should piss off back to Japan).

There has been so much written about Paul, Yoko and John over the years of which so much should be ignored or at the very least highly questioned. Its what makes this thread pretty tiresome on a personal level.

The source was Paul's girlfriend, Francie Schwartz, who was an eyewitness to the event.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death." --John Lennon

7 October 2013
10.55pm
parlance
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trcanberra said

We may be reaching the 'Day in the Life' aaah stage :)

:-) Unless someone comes in violently insisting they're right and the evidence is obvious, I think we're safe there.

parlance

 

Beware of sadness. It can hit you. It can hurt you. Make you sore and what is more, that is not what you are here for. - George

Check out my fan video for Paul's song "Appreciate" at YouTube and Vimeo.

7 October 2013
11.03pm
meanmistermustard
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Expert Textpert said

meanmistermustard said
There are rumours that Yoko made a beeline for Paul before John but there is nothing substantial to back them up. As for that letter Paul supposedly left on the mantelpiece what is the source? From what i've read Paul put both John and Yoko up for a while in his house when they needed a place to stay (no doubt leading to stories that Paul slept with John (reviving a 6 day romance back in 1960 for a few nights) and wrote on the walls in bright paint that Yoko was a foreign bitch and should piss off back to Japan).
There has been so much written about Paul, Yoko and John over the years of which so much should be ignored or at the very least highly questioned. Its what makes this thread pretty tiresome on a personal level.

The source was Paul's girlfriend, Francie Schwartz, who was an eyewitness to the event.

Who claims to be an eyewitness at the event, her claims have not been validated. I can claim anything about an event I was supposedly at, doesn't mean it happened. From what I can find online her book should be taken like those True Stories of the Beatles DVDs.

"Well, probably we'll sell less records, less people'll go to see the film, we'll write less songs, and we'll all die of failure" (John Lennon 8/64)
8 October 2013
1.26am
walrusgumboot
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Ever read Francie Shwartz's book? I think I'd trust her as much as Yoko's tarot card reader….
Hey trcanberra-aaahhh!! a-hard-days-night-john-1

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