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Did John Lennon have gay leanings?
2 October 2013
10.42pm
Ron Nasty
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Here in Ye Olde England, first finger through to thumb is what I've always done.

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2 October 2013
10.52pm
Ahhh Girl
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mja6758 said
Here in Ye Olde England, first finger through to thumb is what I've always done.

Ditto for the USA. Thumb is the last to go up.

2 October 2013
10.53pm
trcanberra
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mja6758 said
Here in Ye Olde England, first finger through to thumb is what I've always done.

Wow – then start with the other hand?

By starting with thumb of left hand you get 1-10 in one run through – jumping to small finger of right hand on 6 :)

Must be a Welsh thing, I was born in Bangor and grew up on Anglesey – long, long ago now though that seems.

 

2 October 2013
11.40pm
Ron Nasty
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trcanberra said

mja6758 said
Here in Ye Olde England, first finger through to thumb is what I've always done.

Wow – then start with the other hand?

By starting with thumb of left hand you get 1-10 in one run through – jumping to small finger of right hand on 6 :)

Must be a Welsh thing, I was born in Bangor and grew up on Anglesey – long, long ago now though that seems.

 

Not if you're using a finger to follow the count. You touch the first finger of your left hand with the first finger of your right hand (assuming you are right-handed) and count down the fingers 1 to 4, giving the the thumb number five, and then that thumb takes over and counts the digits on the right hand, giving a flow through to the count of 11. S**t! That's just my extra digit!

 

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2 October 2013
11.42pm
meanmistermustard
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I start counting using left hand thumb through to pinkie then move over to the right hand thumb and carry on til reaching 10, if going past then back to right.

I presume the first finger is the index? Seems an odd way to me. a-hard-days-night-paul-4

"Well, probably we'll sell less records, less people'll go to see the film, we'll write less songs, and we'll all die of failure" (John Lennon 8/64)
2 October 2013
11.44pm
trcanberra
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Amazing stuff this.  Oh, but not gay.

Slap us with a 'stay on topic' submarine someone.

3 October 2013
12.05am
Hannah
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stay-on-topic 

I'm reading the Lennon book by Phillip Norman at the moment and there are a soooo many references to John having gay leanings, it's almost as if Norman wants it to be true. He quotes Yoko as saying that John thought about sleeping with men when they were about to begin their separation as that would make it less painful to her. She also says that John told her he liked her because she looks like a man in drag! paul-mccartney  (Not true in my opinion. Yoko was actually quite pretty) either way, it doesn't matter to me. I suspect John was just a  sexually curious person who may have experimented. And don't forget, in the 70's it was quite usual for rock stars to go through a bisexual phase. Did you know that Mick Jagger and David Bowie had a fling! 

3 October 2013
12.17am
Funny Paper
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Paul McCartney has more than once in interviews tried to argue the following:

1) I don't think John had gay leanings

because

2) for years he and I knocked around together, going to clubs, getting drunk together, crashing in strange places, hanging around together during the day, as young guys involved in the counter culture experimenting with all manner of things and ideas

3) and yet I never once saw or heard any indication from John of any gay leanings.

Certainly this is a fairly strong argument; however, it's not fool-proof.  The crux of it -- #2 -- fails to account for two things:

a) there were long times both during the Beatles heyday, and toward the end of the Beatles run, and certainly in the decade after, when Paul and John were not joined at the hip, and so John could well have evinced various behaviors and expressed various ideas denoting a "gay leaning" which Paul never saw or heard;

and

b) even during the thick of the time Paul and John were joined at the hip, Paul may in his mind and memory be exaggerating the practical impossibility of John being able to pursue a closet leaning in any way, shape or form.

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3 October 2013
12.18am
meanmistermustard
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Not the greatest compliment to pay to your girlfriend "you look like a man in drag".

Is there any hard evidence for this or is it all circumstantial, hearsay, or from books that insinuate it without providing any actual proof?

"Well, probably we'll sell less records, less people'll go to see the film, we'll write less songs, and we'll all die of failure" (John Lennon 8/64)
3 October 2013
12.19am
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On thumb-counting -- cbatcu (and other interested parties), please see the "Impossible to Derail" thread for my response.

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3 October 2013
8.31am
Hannah
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meanmistermustard said
Not the greatest compliment to pay to your girlfriend "you look like a man in drag".

Is there any hard evidence for this or is it all circumstantial, hearsay, or from books that insinuate it without providing any actual proof?

Those things were actually said by Yoko. She initially cooperated with Norman but when the book came out she wasn't pleased and condemned it. He presents her actually saying them in quotes though, and I wouldn't have thought he could just make them up or she'd sue!

Apparently Jagger and Bowie were open aboutt their fling in the 70's (so my mum tells me!) but now never speak of it! Maybe it was made up for publicity or shock value! 

3 October 2013
11.54am
WETSRoosa
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"Those things were actually said by Yoko. She initially cooperated with Norman but when the book came out she wasn't pleased and condemned it. He presents her actually saying them in quotes though, and I wouldn't have thought he could just make them up or she'd sue!"

"Apparently Jagger and Bowie were open aboutt their fling in the 70's (so my mum tells me!) but now never speak of it! Maybe it was made up for publicity or shock value!"

I remember as a kid Bowie & Jagger's cover of "Dancing in the Streets" playing on the big rock station in Philadelphia and then John DiBella, their controversial DJ (and the most popular DJ in the US in the mid-80s) coming in with "And that was 'Dancing in the Sheets!' I mean, Street! ::laughter:: Eh, I think the first one is more accurate!" Why I remember that to this day I don't know, but I do. But yes, Jagger and Bowie were rumored to be an off-and-on item for many years.

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3 October 2013
4.45pm
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First…do you think Paul would really admit to any gay leanings on John's part…I don't think he'd really tell the truth about that one way or the other. And, Paul was not with Brian and John in Spain. So, he can't know what happened there. Finally…Mick Jagger and David Bowie…wow! I never heard that! How did Jagger get so many girls if that was the case? (He is not exactly a Paul McCartney cutey). Is David Bowie gay or Bi? (not that it matters). It amazes me that so many varied sorts of people wanted to have sex with Jagger! I must be missing something about him!

"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."

3 October 2013
5.41pm
Ahhh Girl
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mccartneyalarm said
First…do you think Paul would really admit to any gay leanings on John's part…I don't think he'd really tell the truth about that one way or the other. (snip)

I've been thinking along the same line. Thank you for adding it to the conversation.

or…Did Yoko pay him off to keep quiet? Or did the two of them conspire to sweep it under the rug?

3 October 2013
5.57pm
Bungalow Bob
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cbatcu said
or…Did Yoko pay him off to keep quiet? Or did the two of them conspire to sweep it under the rug?

All I know is that George looked at the floor, and saw that it needed sweeping. Probably not pertinent.

Anyway, has this already been brought up in this thread? I just read Pete Townsend's autobiography, "Who I Am," and he describes having several casual sexual encounters with men, many of them strangers. (Maybe this has already been discussed. Sorry, if that's so.)

3 October 2013
7.05pm
Hannah
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mccartneyalarm said
First…do you think Paul would really admit to any gay leanings on John's part…I don't think he'd really tell the truth about that one way or the other. And, Paul was not with Brian and John in Spain. So, he can't know what happened there. Finally…Mick Jagger and David Bowie…wow! I never heard that! How did Jagger get so many girls if that was the case? (He is not exactly a Paul McCartney cutey). Is David Bowie gay or Bi? (not that it matters). It amazes me that so many varied sorts of people wanted to have sex with Jagger! I must be missing something about him!

I don't know what it is about Jagger but I find him attractive even at his age now! I think he's meant to be very good in bed so maybe that has something to do with it!  I think it was fashionable to be a bit bi in the 70's.

As for John, does anyone think he actually wanted to sleep with Paul, as Phillip Norman (and Yoko) claim? In the book, Yoko says that she didn't understand why John was so angry at Paul and that it seemed more like the way someone would feel if someone they loved (romanticly) spurned them. I can sort of see something in that, Yoko knew John better than anyone and she obviously felt some tension there. I don't think anything happened between John and Paul though but maybe John would have been interested in experimenting with him. Paul would never reveal that, if he had an inkling of it. It probably makes him feel uncomfortable when people ask about it. 

 

3 October 2013
10.01pm
mccartneyalarm
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Just my gut feeling…I really don't think John wanted to sleep with Paul or experiment with him. I have nothing to base it on, just my own perception. I feel like Yoko would claim anything negative about Paul (and I feel her saying John wanted to have sex with Paul is negative) especially back when Norman wrote the book. I don't trust Yoko. She just twists truth to suit her (as we've all discussed on this forum before).

"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."

3 October 2013
11.49pm
Hannah
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I don't think Yoko was necessarily being negative about Paul, but you're right that she could have had ulterior motives for saying that stuff. John did say that the 2 most important partners he had had in his life were Paul and Yoko so there could have been a sort of jealousy there. I just think that John was incredibly open to anything and it may have crossed his mind at some point. Philip Norman was probably making more of it than there actually was to make his book more interesting. 

4 October 2013
4.02pm
fabfouremily
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''Philip Norman was probably making more of it than there actually was to make his book more interesting.''

This is my thinking.

Assuming John were gay/open to experimentation (which is a big assumption with little to support it), I don't think he would've been stupid enough to consider anything with Paul. They were not only really good friends but co-writers, buisnessmen together. If anything happened between them it could not only sacrifice their relationship but also the Beatles to a certain extent. What if they could never work together again afterwards? That's the end of Lennon-McCartney.

''We're just knocked out. We heard about the sell out. You gotta get an album out, you owe it to the people. We're so happy we can hardly count.''

4 October 2013
7.09pm
Hannah
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That's true Emily. Also, John did like to come out with shocking statements (the one about his mum comes to.mind) I don't think Yoko should have told anyone if he did say those things though. People often confide things to their other halfs that they wouldn't dream of telling anyone else. Why did Yoko reveal them to Philip Norman? 

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