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Did John Lennon have gay leanings?
10 August 2013
6.04pm
Hannah
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mccartneyalarm said
Hi, Hannah! It is a shame if it is true that John visited hookers in NY..but it may be on the truer side rather than the BS side as we all know all of the Beatles visited (or enjoyed) hookers when they were in Hamburg. Again...doesn't reflect on their character. Amazing that none of the hookers wrote a book! If a tarot card reader can write one, I'd imagine a hooker could write one, too!

Ha ha, that's so funny! Maybe the hookers families didn't know they were hookers and they didn't want them to find out! That's true though. You'd think at least 1 would have sold her story, imagine all the dirt she could come out with. Glad they haven't though. Some things are best left to the imagination.

 

 

 

13 August 2013
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I wouldn't be surprised if he visited some escorts.  The Frederic Seaman book I'm reading says that John confided in Fred that he got nothing from Yoko.  I'm learning all kinds of interesting things about Yoko, like how she cheated on John with Sam Green right under his nose, and how she was on heroin right in front of him and he didn't know.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death." --John Lennon

13 August 2013
8.23pm
DrBeatle
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Yeah, she also had this weird thing from about '72 onward where John was almost forbidden to touch her, let alone hug or kiss. And John had a famously high sex drive, so of course he ended up stepping out. Apart from when Sean was conceived, I wonder how many times they were actually intimate for the last 7-8 years of John's life. It was truly a bizarre relationship from beginning to end.

"I know you, you know me; one thing I can tell you is you got to be free!"

 

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13 August 2013
8.54pm
mccartneyalarm
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Yeah, that Seaman book is a wealth of information on Yoko (and John). To back up much of what Seaman said, I found that the recently released Letters of John Lennon (I think that's the title)...the actual letters and memos and lists and cards and such that John personally wrote...add credibility to much of what Seaman claims. Yoko kept really strange hours (up all night in her inner sanctum down on the 1st or 2nd floor of the Dakota), and she was on the phone constantly with her numerologist and Charlie Swan, the tarot card reader, and her "doctors"..the list is endless. John went down to her "office" daily to try to get an appointment to see "mother" and she was either too busy or not available or whatever. He was clearly depressed about it. My take away is they saw very little of each other during the last four to five years of his life. He and Seaman sailed to Bermuda for a few months and Yoko refused to come over during that time...she was too busy. He went to Florida with Seaman and she came down only for 2-3 days during that time since it was her birthday. She always had some excuse why she could not be with John. Not quite the same image of John & Yoko we saw at the Bed In! But, I believe it is fairly credible. John was lonely! It is sad, really.

"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."

13 August 2013
10.29pm
fabfouremily
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She wouldn't even let him touch her? That's a bit.... weird, to say the least. They were supposed to love eachother like nobody had ever loved anyone ever before... I still don't know what at all to make of Yoko, and her relationship with John.

''We're just knocked out. We heard about the sell out. You gotta get an album out, you owe it to the people. We're so happy we can hardly count.''

14 August 2013
3.08am
WETSRoosa
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John's no saint, but if what you all are saying about Yoko is true, with him being forbidden to touch her and having to make appointments, I'd be out of that relationship. I wouldn't put up with that and I wonder why he did. I know love blinds some ugly truths in relationships but you'd think sooner or later he'd have enough. Remember his "Jump when your mama tells you anything" line from "How Do You Sleep"? I wonder if he looked hard in the mirror when he wrote that... a-hard-days-night-john-2

"Daddy, just remember... Mommy's smarter than you. She said so."- My 4 year old
14 August 2013
10.15am
fabfouremily
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The only reason I can think of why he would stay is that he felt completely dependant on her. He was quite needy, and he saw Yoko as a mother figure, something which he craved in his life. I don't think anyone will ever understand truly what was going on in their heads, but I'm sure that must have something to do with it.

''We're just knocked out. We heard about the sell out. You gotta get an album out, you owe it to the people. We're so happy we can hardly count.''

14 August 2013
12.56pm
LadyBay
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I agree with that - I don't think John knew how to be on his own, he needed "mother"  (Yoko) in his life and she relished that hold on him,  controlling what he did and who he saw. He was so impractical when it came to daily life. That's so sad about their lack of physical contact, maybe explains a lot about John's behavior throughout those years.

"Try to realise it's all within yourself - no-one else can make you change"

14 August 2013
3.15pm
WETSRoosa
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LadyBay said
I agree with that - I don't think John knew how to be on his own, he needed "mother"  (Yoko) in his life and she relished that hold on him,  controlling what he did and who he saw. He was so impractical when it came to daily life. That's so sad about their lack of physical contact, maybe explains a lot about John's behavior throughout those years.

 

According to one account, he called his time away from Yoko "the happiest days of his life," when he was with May out in Los Angeles. Who knows? I found it somewhat intriguing that he'd call Paul p-whipped when John himself was the definition of that, yet Paul's marriage to Linda seemed as normal and stable as it could be considering the stardom and touring. I'm sure Linda was the boss of the house, yet in terms of music, she let Paul in charge (which is what he wanted anyway) and was happy to be a sidekick of sorts.

"Daddy, just remember... Mommy's smarter than you. She said so."- My 4 year old
14 August 2013
4.31pm
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The Yoko revelations are hard for me because I'm a fan of her art and music.  Of course, there is a chance that Seaman just hated Yoko and made things up, but it all has a ring of truth about it.

Apparently, while John was in Bermuda, Yoko was preparing to divorce him.  Seaman (his assistant) kept John in the dark about her affair and the divorce plans because he knew John was so dependent on her and because he didn't want to destroy John's inspiration when he had just begun to write music again.  But, also, John was apparently very aware of (and agry about) Yoko's lack of interest (in both him AND Sean) and admitted to using the album as a way to try and resurrect the romance.  Apparently, at one point, John was so starved for attention he even tried to pick up teenagers at a Bermuda disco and failed.

The book also says that Yoko became depressed when she realized she coudln't have another baby (which apparently she was attempting to use as a way to further control John).  All signs point to Yoko being in the relationship for the money.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death." --John Lennon

14 August 2013
4.36pm
mccartneyalarm
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I am reading "Dakota Days" right now, written by the tarot card reader, "Charlie Swan."Basically, he is reporting what Yoko told him during her readings and what John told him during his readings. Yoko brought Charlie into the mix. John didn't really want to get involved, but as time went on, he started to depend on Charlie as a friend and confidant. (His name was really John but Yoko made him change it to Charlie so he would not have the same first name as John). John was desperately lonely at this time, and he was very depressed. Charlie was basically in the middle. John complained that Yoko wasn't there for him. He went to hookers because she was no longer willing to have sex with him. She was also spending vast amounts of money and this worried John since he was not writing anything at the time. He thought his money would run out. It is very sad because he was truly troubled, and he took out his anger on Yoko who didn't understand why he was behaving that way. (Saying cruel things, putting her down) She used to talk to the Japanese nanny in Japenese and it drove John nuts cuz he couldn't understand her. Anyway, this book backs up quite a bit of the Seaman book. John couldn't leave Yoko cuz he could not care for himself or his own business interests. Yoko needed his money and his connections since she still envisioned being the next Vincent VanGogh of the avante garde art world. Very sad.

"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."

14 August 2013
4.41pm
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Also, the Seaman book has a few more "gay clues."

One of the books that John had Seaman buy for him was called Greek Homosexuality.  And John confided in him that as a young man he had dreamed of being a fashion designer or a hair stylist, but didn't want to be stigmatized as gay because of it, and so he didn't do either of them.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death." --John Lennon

14 August 2013
4.44pm
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Dakota Days sounds interesting.

Oh, I forgot--according to Seaman, Double Fantasy was originally going to be a John solo album, but Yoko manipulated the situation so that she could have her own side of the LP, and then eventually got him to agree that they should alternate songs.  That changes my whole concept of the album, if it's true.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death." --John Lennon

14 August 2013
4.53pm
mccartneyalarm
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The Dakota Days book is as fascinating as Seaman's book. Can't put it down! Also in the Seaman book, Fred and John went to a gay bar in Bermuda...not saying that means anything. They used to go out to get out and hear music. In ny opinion, you can still like Yoko, and her art and music, even if you don't "approve of" or understand her private life. That's true with any public figure, I think.

"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."

14 August 2013
7.44pm
WETSRoosa
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mccartneyalarm said
The Dakota Days book is as fascinating as Seaman's book. Can't put it down! Also in the Seaman book, Fred and John went to a gay bar in Bermuda...not saying that means anything. They used to go out to get out and hear music. In ny opinion, you can still like Yoko, and her art and music, even if you don't "approve of" or understand her private life. That's true with any public figure, I think.

Case in point: John Lennon. Respect the music and genius, don't like how he left his first wife or that he abandoned his first child (which he admits in the RKO interview). That's just me personally. As the husband and father of a three-year old, I couldn't imagine just up and leaving the family at the drop of a hat for any woman, but then again, it wouldn't add to the John Lennon myth if he had stayed, so... again, who knows?

"Daddy, just remember... Mommy's smarter than you. She said so."- My 4 year old
15 August 2013
3.20am
LadyBay
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Interesting to think what difference it may have made to his creative output had he stayed? Was Yoko a crucial factor in giving him confidence to branch out and to keep him focused?

I don't like a lot of the ways that John, Paul or George behaved in their personal lives but I feel very strongly that, in the end, their personal lives are their own business.  All we are entitled to do is enjoy ( or otherwise) their work and judge it on it's own merits.

"Try to realise it's all within yourself - no-one else can make you change"

16 August 2013
7.18pm
Hannah
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LadyBay said
Interesting to think what difference it may have made to his creative output had he stayed? Was Yoko a crucial factor in giving him confidence to branch out and to keep him focused?

I don't like a lot of the ways that John, Paul or George behaved in their personal lives but I feel very strongly that, in the end, their personal lives are their own business.  All we are entitled to do is enjoy ( or otherwise) their work and judge it on it's own merits.

Exactly. If we were all famous and the intimate details of our private lives were public knowledge I'm sure there would be elements that we were ashamed of or that people might judge us about (or maybe that's just me!)  Just because they behaved badly at times doesn't mean they weren't basically good people. And the worst thing is we can't be sure what is true and whats not because we didn't know them and didn't see those things happening for ourselves.

 

 

22 August 2013
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I just finished the Fred Seaman book, and he mentions that on John's 40th birthday John kissed him on the mouth.  He had been wearing eyeliner and mascara that his girlfriend put on him the night before.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death." --John Lennon

23 August 2013
9.15am
fabfouremily
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Again, though, I don't think that necessarily suggests that he was gay. It's a bit strange for two guys to kiss if they're just friends, but girls do it all the time, and it doesn't mean they're gay. I don't know. We'll never know.

''We're just knocked out. We heard about the sell out. You gotta get an album out, you owe it to the people. We're so happy we can hardly count.''

30 August 2013
6.22pm
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Sorry to hijack the topic but could we possibly get back to the Hamburg/early days? I find it incredibly annoying how there's a wealth of info out there from the later periods but hardly any about the very early days...

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