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Did John Lennon have gay leanings?
22 January 2014
1.44pm
DrBeatle
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I've heard those diary tapes (the available ones, anyway) and they're very bleak.  I wish the world could hear them so we could be done with the 34 years (and counting) of nonsense peddled by Yoko and Sean that Johnandyoko was the 20th century's greatest love story. It was two people who barely could stand to be around each other once the glow of the media watching their every move (and thus feeding their massive agos) wore off around 1972 or so.

"I know you, you know me; one thing I can tell you is you got to be free!"

 

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22 January 2014
4.37pm
meanmistermustard
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John sounds isolated, unhappy, bored, trapped and depressed on the diary tape - tho its not as biting towards Dylan, Paul, Paul Simon and Mick Jagger as i was led to believe. The section about his mother and copping a feel is a bit creepy as well is his recollection of seeing her satisfying John Dykins (who would use the margarine sitting on the kitchen table to grease his hair (yuck)).

Being a Scot it was heart warming to hear him speaking so fondly of Edinburgh and the Military Tattoo (as well as Japan) after hearing the bagpipes outside his window, tho sad that he never got the chance to bring Sean over in 1981, as was hearing him say he had "given up Scotland and the Ocean and settling for some grass and a tree" just outside New York. It's no surprise hearing this that John loved the boat trip to Bermuda and the freedom, release and excitement he got from that.

The more i read and more and hear the more i think John and Yoko would have split in the early 80's, its plainly obvious John at least was deeply unhappy with how things were - despite what they put out there in the interviews to promote Double Fantasy. 

Don’t make your love suffer insecurities, trade the baggage of self to set another one free. ('Paper Skin' - Kendall Payne)
29 January 2014
11.05pm
jwshenk
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Several major items to add to your list.

- Yoko's remark to New York Magazine about John's sexuality. I can't remember the details now, but it was eye-opening.

- John's remark to Pete Shotton, reported in Shotton's memoir, that he's afraid Cynthia will suspect they've been having sex.

- The language John used describing Yoko, not just that she was like him in drag, but that she was just like any bloke you could go out with, etc. If you look closely at the particular language of these remarks, it's definitely suggestive of some kind of ambiguity.

30 January 2014
7.39am
LongHairedLady
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meanmistermustard said
John sounds isolated, unhappy, bored, trapped and depressed on the diary tape - tho its not as biting towards Dylan, Paul, Paul Simon and Mick Jagger as i was led to believe. The section about his mother and copping a feel is a bit creepy as well is his recollection of seeing her satisfying John Dykins (who would use the margarine sitting on the kitchen table to grease his hair (yuck)).

Being a Scot it was heart warming to hear him speaking so fondly of Edinburgh and the Military Tattoo (as well as Japan) after hearing the bagpipes outside his window, tho sad that he never got the chance to bring Sean over in 1981, as was hearing him say he had "given up Scotland and the Ocean and settling for some grass and a tree" just outside New York. It's no surprise hearing this that John loved the boat trip to Bermuda and the freedom, release and excitement he got from that.

The more i read and more and hear the more i think John and Yoko would have split in the early 80's, its plainly obvious John at least was deeply unhappy with how things were - despite what they put out there in the interviews to promote Double Fantasy. 

To be fair, regarding the thing with his mom, this is a quote from Paul in "Many Years From Now":

At night there was a moment where she would pass our bedroom door in her underwear, which was the only time I would ever see that, and I used to get sexually aroused.  Just a funny little bit.  I mean, it never went beyond that but I was quite proud of it, I thought "That's pretty good".  It's not everyone's mum that's got the power to arouse.

Also him and John and other friends of theirs used to have "wanking sessions" together.

I don't know where I was going with this…  ahdn_paul_01

"Please don't bring your banjo back, I know where it's been..  I wasn't hardly gone a day, when it became the scene..  Banjos!  Banjos!  All the time, I can't forget that tune..  and if I ever see another banjo, I'm going out and buy a big balloon!"

 

30 January 2014
11.30am
thisgirlthatgirl
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It's very easy to believe that John was "bi-curious" at the very least, but I'm not buying the McLennon shipping at all. 

 

Peace and love

5 February 2014
2.56am
Lennonista
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DrBeatle said 

I've heard those diary tapes (the available ones, anyway) and they're very bleak.  I wish the world could hear them so we could be done with the 34 years (and counting) of nonsense peddled by Yoko and Sean that Johnandyoko was the 20th century's greatest love story. It was two people who barely could stand to be around each other once the glow of the media watching their every move (and thus feeding their massive agos) wore off around 1972 or so.

You hear what you want to hear. I've listened to the tapes many times and have no idea how they could prove that John and Yoko could barely stand each other. There's no evidence for that at all. And they don't sound bleak to me. Rather, he sounds slightly stoned and maybe a bit restless. But to those of you who want to believe the worst about him and Yoko, it's like something nefarious was going on.

5 February 2014
3.06am
Funny Paper
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There's also the factor that some romantic couples express their deep love with, unfortunately, lots of anger and hostility (another famous couple who had regular discord was Richard Burton and Liz Taylor, yet one could not say they weren't deeply in love with each other all the same).  Paul and Linda happened to enjoy another style of deep love, where it wasn't tumultuous or bitter (though no doubt they had their tiffs now and then, like anybody else), but for the most part, apparently, was rather idyllic and halcyonic.

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...
5 February 2014
6.50am
Lennonista
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Funny Paper said
There's also the factor that some romantic couples express their deep love with, unfortunately, lots of anger and hostility (another famous couple who had regular discord was Richard Burton and Liz Taylor, yet one could not say they weren't deeply in love with each other all the same).  Paul and Linda happened to enjoy another style of deep love, where it wasn't tumultuous or bitter (though no doubt they had their tiffs now and then, like anybody else), but for the most part, apparently, was rather idyllic and <a
href="http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Halcyonic">halcyonic.

...and you know about the inner workings of Paul and Linda's personal relationship how?

5 February 2014
8.25am
Funny Paper
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I can't seem to do a "quote" function tonight. 

To Lennonista:

My "...,apparently,..." technically saves me from the harsh bulb of your interrogatory question.blue-meanie  I.e., it's just my impression.  One, of course, can't really absolutely know such things about any couple -- even at times about one's own romantic relationship!

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...
5 February 2014
1.23pm
WETSRoosa
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DrBeatle said
I've heard those diary tapes (the available ones, anyway) and they're very bleak.  I wish the world could hear them so we could be done with the 34 years (and counting) of nonsense peddled by Yoko and Sean that Johnandyoko was the 20th century's greatest love story. It was two people who barely could stand to be around each other once the glow of the media watching their every move (and thus feeding their massive agos) wore off around 1972 or so.

 

I can understand your bone of contention on Yoko's end, but I think it's a tad unfair to throw Sean in there. If anything, he's caught in a rock and a hard place: he's got a domineering mother who I'm sure has brainwashed him (or tried to, anyway) on how great JOHNANDYOKO was. But at the same time, he's at the age now where he undoubtly knows about the Lost Weekend and May Pang and how John left Cynthia at the drop of a hat for his mom and how shitty Julian has been treated. That's a lot to take on and deal with for anybody. So if Sean does help peddle the nonsense in your view, what's he supposed to do? If he goes against the grain, then you know Yoko's cutting off all contact with him, and that's not easy for anybody to deal with. (I've seen it firsthand with my wife when she and her mom stopped speaking for a while.) So Sean's in a no-win situation: either he helps sell the nauseating myth of JOHNANDYOKO or he doesn't and possibly lose contact with the only parent he's got.

"There's no such thing as bad student... only bad teacher."
5 February 2014
1.37pm
Ron Nasty
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This thread should attempt to get back on topic. Read the title. It's turned into another discussion about John and Yoko, when there is already a thread for that. I want to post in the right thread, but too much of what I want to reply to is here.

blue-meanieblue-meanieblue-meanieblue-meanieblue-meanie

Why do people have to keep turning threads about John into attacks on Yoko?

stay-on-topic

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
5 February 2014
2.33pm
Lennonista
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Funny Paper said

 it's just my impression.  One, of course, can't really absolutely know such things about any couple -- 

My point exactly. Yet that doesn't stop people on this forum from making such absolute assertions about the nature of John and Yoko's relationship. My warning is to the young and impressionable Beatles fans: Just because a bunch of people say things in a forum, doesn't make them true.

mja6758 said

Why do people have to keep turning threads about John into attacks on Yoko? 

And when they're not doing that, they're busy asserting what a creep John was, most often inserting a comparison to the virtuous and noble Mr. McCartney (whom I love but who was/is probably just as flawed as Mr. Lennon).

I think the gay leanings thing has played itself out, however. How much more "evidence" can be dug up on a man who has been gone for more than 30 years?

5 February 2014
3.16pm
Expert Textpert
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Lennonista said

Funny Paper said  it's just my impression.  One, of course, can't really absolutely know such things about any couple -- 

My point exactly. Yet that doesn't stop people on this forum from making such absolute assertions about the nature of John and Yoko's relationship. My warning is to the young and impressionable Beatles fans: Just because a bunch of people say things in a forum, doesn't make them true.

mja6758 said Why do people have to keep turning threads about John into attacks on Yoko? 

And when they're not doing that, they're busy asserting what a creep John was, most often inserting a comparison to the virtuous and noble Mr. McCartney (whom I love but who was/is probably just as flawed as Mr. Lennon).
I think the gay leanings thing has played itself out, however. How much more "evidence" can be dug up on a man who has been gone for more than 30 years?

Lennonista, I agree that there is a certain amount of irrational hatred of Yoko, or at the very least, bias against her as a person and against her art and music, going on.  It always baffles me as to why she provokes so much anger among Beatles fans.  But I agree, let's stay on topic.

As to the topic, I think John probably did have gay fantasies.  That's my opinion.  Of course, we'll probably never know.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death." --John Lennon

5 February 2014
4.47pm
fabfouremily
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Good to see the older threads bringing up new posts, but maybe it's best if we stick to the topic :)

''We're just knocked out. We heard about the sell out. You gotta get an album out, you owe it to the people. We're so happy we can hardly count.''

5 February 2014
6.41pm
Lennonista
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I have no problem sticking to the topic; however, I find it interesting that there were SEVERAL off-topic posts before mine that I was responding to. It was only when my voice of dissent was added to the mix that people jumped in finally to say "stick to the topic."

The topic is played out, though, innit? John was sexually adventurous, we all know, and his fantasies–if not his actual adventures–most probably included homosexual ones. A very normal thing. And we'll never know for sure. Blah, blah, blah.

5 February 2014
7.03pm
Ron Nasty
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You may note, as the first to voice disapproval of the derailment of this thread, I actually agree with much of what you say. Derailments often happen to threads, and usually they right themselves quite quickly. In this case it didn't, and we were ending up with two threads conducting virtually the same conversation. This one and "Did Yoko love John".

It becomes difficult to comment on a conversation that is taking place in different threads, which was the point I was making.

As to whether this thread is played out or not, that may or may not be right. That doesn't mean that it should become a conversation about something else, especially when that conversation (which you are a part of) is being played out elsewhere.

You never know what others may bring to this conversation about John's sexuality, whether it's tomorrow or at some stage in the future.

My point was not about what you or anyone else was saying, but rather where you were saying it.

It's just my personal opinion, but it's easier for me to comment on something if I don't need to keep saying, "As suggested by such-and-such post in such-and-such thread".

Believe me, my comment had nothing at all to do with any problem with any point you raised as I actually agree with most of what you said.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
6 February 2014
2.06am
Lennonista
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mja6758 said 

You never know what others may bring to this conversation about John's sexuality, whether it's tomorrow or at some stage in the future.

Fair enough. I'd be interested to read any new insights... especially if they're not couched in Yoko hate rhetoric.

6 February 2014
2.19am
LongHairedLady
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I don't understand why lately some people join this forum and right away start talking to us like we are a bunch of stupid assholes that don't know anything?  I consider this to be a welcoming forum... Why come in with such a shitty attitude?  It's not cool.  

 

"Please don't bring your banjo back, I know where it's been..  I wasn't hardly gone a day, when it became the scene..  Banjos!  Banjos!  All the time, I can't forget that tune..  and if I ever see another banjo, I'm going out and buy a big balloon!"

 

6 February 2014
11.51am
meanmistermustard
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Its bad enough having one thread with arguing but to have twoa-hard-days-night-ringo-14 

For the heart of apple01's can we move on and go back to this place being a happy, peaceful place. 

If you want to have an argument then go to a clinic (any reason to post Monty Python and some humour might help).

 

 

Don’t make your love suffer insecurities, trade the baggage of self to set another one free. ('Paper Skin' - Kendall Payne)
6 February 2014
7.50pm
fabfouremily
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Lennonista said
I have no problem sticking to the topic; however, I find it interesting that there were SEVERAL off-topic posts before mine that I was responding to. It was only when my voice of dissent was added to the mix that people jumped in finally to say "stick to the topic."

Hi Lennonista, sorry if it seemed I was aiming my comment at you. I wasn't, trust me. I was just commenting generally on trying to stick to the topic that belongs here. I sometimes wait a bit to see if people get back to the right conversation before me jumping in and telling them what to do (don't want to scare people off or anything like that). This time it was just unlucky for you that I chose to comment after you did.

 

''We're just knocked out. We heard about the sell out. You gotta get an album out, you owe it to the people. We're so happy we can hardly count.''

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