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Did John dislike any of Paul's songs?
1 November 2013
5.13pm
Bungalow Bob
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I'm really intrigued with I learned here at the Beatles Bible yesterday: that the central guitar riff from John's "Beef Jerky" (which I wasn't familiar with) is pretty much the same guitar riff as Paul's "Let Me Roll It," which I always thought was influenced by the howling guitar motif of John's "Cold Turkey." (played by Eric Clapton, probably thunk up by John) This is fascinating, considering that John offered "Cold Turkey" to the Beatles, but it was rejected. (most likely due to the lyrics.) So, it looks as if Paul might have been musically apologizing (for lack of a better word) to John, and then John was returning the apology back with "Beef Jerky." That's cool to think that they may have been sniping at each other with thinly-veiled lyrical cheap shots, but they were still very gentlemanly using the language of music. So, that's how they were able to sleep. :)

4 November 2013
4.54am
Lennonista
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DrBeatle said
it seems John had more visceral hate for Paul's songs that he wasn't crazy about once Paul became the dominant force in the group (late-1966 to the end), whereas when John was the dominant force (1962-mid'66), he was more tolerant.

His dislike for those songs has nothing to do with Paul's becoming a more dominant force in the band... he hated those songs because they're granny music. Actually, I call them kids tunes. And he's not the only one who hated 'em... (See: George Harrison and millions of Beatles fans at the time.)

4 November 2013
10.56am
trcanberra
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Lennonista said

DrBeatle said
it seems John had more visceral hate for Paul's songs that he wasn't crazy about once Paul became the dominant force in the group (late-1966 to the end), whereas when John was the dominant force (1962-mid'66), he was more tolerant.

His dislike for those songs has nothing to do with Paul's becoming a more dominant force in the band... he hated those songs because they're granny music. Actually, I call them kids tunes. And he's not the only one who hated 'em... (See: George Harrison and millions of Beatles fans at the time.)

As noted in another thread, or post, I think that Lennon had some cheek feeling that way when he managed to come up with a fair few himself, especially in his solo years.  As others here will know I am a fan of all of the solo Beatles, and have almost all of their stuff now - and John's was the first lot I completed; but tracks such as Bless You and the like sound to me as granny as anything Paul is accused of.

I saw a thread defending them as more thematically developed than Paul's songs along similar lines - which sounds like baloney to me - just someone attempting to defend their favourite Beatle with a bit of sophistry.  I'm also wondering about the 'millions of Beatles fans' - what evidence is there for this?  The singles that Paul came up with when John had seemingly lost interest in the Beatles seemed to sell well enough.

I have no problem with anyone not liking any of this stuff, but calling them kids tunes just reduces the debate to a mud-slinging match.

 

4 November 2013
1.38pm
meanmistermustard
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Bless You cannot be called Granny music - unless your definition of "Granny Music" is very different to mind. Its a love song to Yoko and a message to whichever guy was with her that despite everything the love between John and Yoko would "remain". Nothing like When I'm 64, Your Mother Should Know and the rest.

He told us not to get overwhelmed by grief and whatever thoughts we have... to keep them happy, because any thoughts we have of him will travel to him wherever he is. (John Lennon - 27/8/67)
4 November 2013
1.40pm
DrBeatle
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trcanberra said

Lennonista said

DrBeatle said
it seems John had more visceral hate for Paul's songs that he wasn't crazy about once Paul became the dominant force in the group (late-1966 to the end), whereas when John was the dominant force (1962-mid'66), he was more tolerant.

His dislike for those songs has nothing to do with Paul's becoming a more dominant force in the band... he hated those songs because they're granny music. Actually, I call them kids tunes. And he's not the only one who hated 'em... (See: George Harrison and millions of Beatles fans at the time.)

As noted in another thread, or post, I think that Lennon had some cheek feeling that way when he managed to come up with a fair few himself, especially in his solo years.  As others here will know I am a fan of all of the solo Beatles, and have almost all of their stuff now - and John's was the first lot I completed; but tracks such as Bless You and the like sound to me as granny as anything Paul is accused of.

I saw a thread defending them as more thematically developed than Paul's songs along similar lines - which sounds like baloney to me - just someone attempting to defend their favourite Beatle with a bit of sophistry.  I'm also wondering about the 'millions of Beatles fans' - what evidence is there for this?  The singles that Paul came up with when John had seemingly lost interest in the Beatles seemed to sell well enough.

I have no problem with anyone not liking any of this stuff, but calling them kids tunes just reduces the debate to a mud-slinging match.

 

Totally agree. It just feeds into the lazy "Paul is a lightweight" conventional wisdom. It's easier to parrot the CW than to think on things and judge them on their own merit.

 

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4 November 2013
2.05pm
robert
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I think John's dislike of some of Paul's songs provides some interesting in sight into their relationship. There are some of the "granny" type songs that John actually liked (I can't recall the sources here, so be kind). Michelle being one of them - which to me is one of the weakest in that genre for Paul. Yet if I recall correctly, John actually encouraged the song and the whole sound of the song.

And remember the Beatles did a lot of those show tunes etc during their up and coming years - Besame Mucho and Till There Was You etc.

I think the emerging dislike by John (and George) was fueled by a few things.

1) When the Beatles started being defined by those songs - And I Love Her, Yesterday etc., and those songs started to become more popular (and profitable) than the rockers (which Paul could also do). There's the quote from Dick James about how he can really sell more of those "potboilers" - I believe this referenced When I'm 64. I believe this fueled feelings of resentment in John and George early on as the band grew in popularity.

2) I believe with the British Invasion the Beatles began to be seen as a "softer" group compared to The Stones, The Who, The Animals etc- bands that followed the trail they blazed but didn't have to tone down their image - the Beatles got lumped in with Gerry and The Pacemakers and Dave Clark and Herman's Hermits (for a while). I think this began to really piss of John and George and they knew it was the result of Paul's ballads.

3) In the same way that there was the gratutious Ringo song an album, I think there became slotted the Paul granny ballad - many times the other Beatles barely appeared on these songs - thus Paul's "solo" career actually began from within the group - based on songs that made them more money (through copywrite etc), songs that the rest barely played on,  songs that were not at the heart of the rock n roll Beatles John and George liked. Thus the beginning of the resentment of "we got tired being sidemen for Paul".

4) Then as John really began to pull back and Paul became more "bossy" the band was then "forced" to spend ridiculous amounts of time working on songs they didn't like (Obla Di Obla Da - Maxwell - Long and Winding Road) and as everything else unraveled - it became easy to target Paul's achilles heel - his granny music.

5) By the time of the break-up Paul was just fair game as they were in an all out war. At the best place to hit him was his songs - the idea that Paul was soft and square etc.

6) And finally, John resented Paul's success in the 70's while John's life almost seemed to dissolve. Thus John's (these quotes are paraphrased) "why does everyone love Paul's songs more than mine?" whine - and Yoko's insightful response that "they like the sugary love moon/June over real art" (again paraphrased) even with the guy in the restaurant playing Yesterday on the violin.

7) BUT - apparently John actually really liked Silly Love Songs - because he got the joke. So near the end of his life I think John softened on the granny stuff and though it really wasn't his type of music, I think once the animosity was gone and the bitter memories faded - he began to remember that he used to like some of that stuff.

8) George, who for all his spirituality was actually the least forgiving Beatle and the most materialistic, never got passed it.

My 2 cents - over priced at that.

 

 

 

"She looks more like him than I do."
4 November 2013
2.26pm
Ron Nasty
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So far as when he was a Beatle, or in the immediate aftermath, I've only seen John include three songs in the "Granny shit" bracket - Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da, Maxwell's Silver Hammer and Teddy Boy. While there is truth in the point that John wasn't keen on the show tunes that made it to their albums, A Taste Of Honey and Till There Was You, he wasn't adverse to a good ballad, and wrote more than a few himself during and after The Beatles.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
4 November 2013
2.56pm
DrBeatle
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mja6758 said
So far as when he was a Beatle, or in the immediate aftermath, I've only seen John include three songs in the "Granny shit" bracket - Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da, Maxwell's Silver Hammer and Teddy Boy. While there is truth in the point that John wasn't keen on the show tunes that made it to their albums, A Taste Of Honey and Till There Was You, he wasn't adverse to a good ballad, and wrote more than a few himself during and after The Beatles.

Exactly. And well said, too, robert. Don't forget, Coming Up was a song John "couldn't get out of my head" (his words) and the song (and McCartney II album) spurred him to finally make another record. I think John's feelings toward Paul in this manner is much closer to what you said than what the conventional wisdom (pumped up by Cult of Lennon members and Yoko herself) says.

And spot on about George, too. With him, it was always personal, to the day he died.

 

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4 November 2013
2.57pm
parlance
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DrBeatle said

And spot on about George, too. With him, it was always personal, to the day he died.

And on this, we continue to disagree.

parlance

 

 

Beware of sadness. It can hit you. It can hurt you. Make you sore and what is more, that is not what you are here for. - George

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4 November 2013
3.01pm
meanmistermustard
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If we are going by ballads in the early days for And I Love Her John wrote If I Fell and I'll Be Back, for Yesterday there is You've Got To Hide Your Love Away, All My Loving read This Boy or All I've Got To Do - not the same kind of ballad but still love songs so its nonsense to suggest Paul was the only doing the soft stuff whilst John and George were driving the more heavier material. 

I don't get the idea that Bless You is Granny Music unless anything soft is now coming under the banner of the term which i dont think was the original intention.

As for another song John might not have been a fan of then A Taste Of Honey which he would occasionally jockingly refer to as A Waste of Money and which Paul introduced as one "John's gonna hate" at the Star Club.

He told us not to get overwhelmed by grief and whatever thoughts we have... to keep them happy, because any thoughts we have of him will travel to him wherever he is. (John Lennon - 27/8/67)
4 November 2013
3.48pm
robert
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meanmistermustard said
If we are going by ballads in the early days for And I Love Her John wrote If I Fell and I'll Be Back, for Yesterday there is You've Got To Hide Your Love Away, All My Loving read This Boy or All I've Got To Do - not the same kind of ballad but still love songs so its nonsense to suggest Paul was the only doing the soft stuff whilst John and George were driving the more heavier material. 

I don't get the idea that Bless You is Granny Music unless anything soft is now coming under the banner of the term which i dont think was the original intention.

As for another song John might not have been a fan of then A Taste Of Honey which he would occasionally jokingly refer to as A Waste of Money and which Paul introduced as one "John's gonna hate" at the Star Club.

I don't think anyone suggested that Paul was the only one doing soft stuff - what I did say is that I think it was the monetary success of  Paul's songs that I believe began to create the wedge musically. I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that EMI and Capitol, who  made royalties based on records sold - as did George Martin - spent more effort producing and marketing Paul's ballads because they sold more and thus made more $.  Especially in US market. Remember how bitter John was towards record executives? It's because he started to feel slighted when he began to lose the A sides to Paul. He said in an interview how like anyone he wanted his records to sell and for people to like his work.

I'm not saying that ballads are granny music - Bless You certainly isn't and In My Life was once voted (by song writers) the great pop song ever written - so John could do it. I mean more the Hello Good-bye, Your Mother Should Know stuff - which John hated not only because of the type of song but because of how much time Paul made them spend on it..

John certainly liked Paul's "good ballads". He once complained about Revolution not being an A side until he realized that it was with Hey Jude which he admitted was worthy.

I think when Paul began to dominate those A sides with those ballads, it bothered John and George a whole whole lot. But money talks in the end.

 

 

"She looks more like him than I do."
5 November 2013
5.54am
Lennonista
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DrBeatle said

trcanberra said 

I have no problem with anyone not liking any of this stuff, but calling them kids tunes just reduces the debate to a mud-slinging match.

Totally agree. It just feeds into the lazy "Paul is a lightweight" conventional wisdom. It's easier to parrot the CW than to think on things and judge them on their own merit.

No mudslinging or parroting of conventional wisdom at all. I have been a Beatles fan my entire life, and I have never liked Maxwell, Hello Goodbye, Honey Pie, All Together Now... and as a thinker with an independent mind, my opinion is that they sound like kiddie songs. I neither said nor implied Paul was a lightweight, just that I don't like those particular songs.

I'm obviously a Lennon fan, but that doesn't mean I don't criticize him just as much as the others.... just as it doesn't mean that if I criticize Paul then I'm just parroting what some rock critic said. I do have a mind of my own.

6 November 2013
3.51am
trcanberra
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Cheers all - great discussion.  One apology, when I hear the 'granny music' thing I think of rather soft ballads - I should have been clearer on that.  I just get tired of the labels on each of them - when one of the reasons I like them all is the diversity.  They give me something to listen to whatever my mood.

6 November 2013
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DrBeatle
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Lennonista said

DrBeatle said

trcanberra said 

I have no problem with anyone not liking any of this stuff, but calling them kids tunes just reduces the debate to a mud-slinging match.

Totally agree. It just feeds into the lazy "Paul is a lightweight" conventional wisdom. It's easier to parrot the CW than to think on things and judge them on their own merit.

No mudslinging or parroting of conventional wisdom at all. I have been a Beatles fan my entire life, and I have never liked Maxwell, Hello Goodbye, Honey Pie, All Together Now... and as a thinker with an independent mind, my opinion is that they sound like kiddie songs. I neither said nor implied Paul was a lightweight, just that I don't like those particular songs.

I'm obviously a Lennon fan, but that doesn't mean I don't criticize him just as much as the others.... just as it doesn't mean that if I criticize Paul then I'm just parroting what some rock critic said. I do have a mind of my own.

Fair enough, and I apologize if I came off as though I were belittling your opinion. What I said wasn't directly to you but more a broad generalization (my wife always tells me those get me in trouble! :lol: ) about how Paul and John are perceived. You obviously have valid reasons for disliking those songs and that's totally fine. I get upset more at the people who dislike them solely because it's "Paul" or because "John thought they were lame," etc.

 

"I know you, you know me; one thing I can tell you is you got to be free!"

 

Please Visit My Website, The Rock and Roll Chemist

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7 November 2013
6.41am
LongHairedLady
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I fucking love Paul's "Granny Shit". a-hard-days-night-john-1

"Please don't bring your banjo back, I know where it's been..  I wasn't hardly gone a day, when it became the scene..  Banjos!  Banjos!  All the time, I can't forget that tune..  and if I ever see another banjo, I'm going out and buy a big balloon!"

 

7 November 2013
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trcanberra
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LongHairedLady said
I fucking love Paul's "Granny Shit". a-hard-days-night-john-1

Same here, but then I have a very wide range of musical tastes as far as styles go.

For anyone who is into Mike Oldfield I love Amarok when I am in the mood.

 

8 November 2013
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Lennonista
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trcanberra said 
Cheers all - great discussion.  One apology, when I hear the 'granny music' thing I think of rather soft ballads - I should have been clearer on that.  I just get tired of the labels on each of them - when one of the reasons I like them all is the diversity.  They give me something to listen to whatever my mood.

DrBeatle said 
Fair enough, and I apologize if I came off as though I were belittling your opinion. What I said wasn't directly to you but more a broad generalization (my wife always tells me those get me in trouble! :lol: ) about how Paul and John are perceived. You obviously have valid reasons for disliking those songs and that's totally fine. I get upset more at the people who dislike them solely because it's "Paul" or because "John thought they were lame," etc. 

a-hard-days-night-george-10All's good. Thanks for understanding, both of you. Funny thing is, I actually adore When I'm 64, which is almost quite literally a granny song. I just wish he had stopped there...

8 November 2013
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trcanberra
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^ I know what you mean.  While not strictly a 'granny song', and while I like bits of it, I still cringe when I hear Silly Love Songs.  And as for lyrics, well, Let 'Em In.  Were they both on the same album? - it must be one of the 5x70s ones on my buy list.

8 November 2013
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fabfouremily
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I don't think of Let 'Em In as (excuse the term) ''Granny shit''. Yes, the lyrics are half-hearted, but it's quite upbeat. Makes me want to get up and march around (almost) when I hear it. Songs like You're Mother Should Know just make me want to go to sleep.

''We're just knocked out. We heard about the sell out. You gotta get an album out, you owe it to the people. We're so happy we can hardly count.''

8 November 2013
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trcanberra
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fabfouremily said
I don't think of Let 'Em In as (excuse the term) ''Granny shit''. Yes, the lyrics are half-hearted, but it's quite upbeat. Makes me want to get up and march around (almost) when I hear it. Songs like You're Mother Should Know just make me want to go to sleep.

Oh, I like Let 'Em In well enough - the name check to his rellies is fun.  I think Your Mother Should Know works well within the visual context of its place in the film, not so well on its own perhaps.  I just love them marching down the steps in time to the song in their white suits (I got married in a white suit so it resonates).

 

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