Did John cause Stu Sutcliffe's death in a fist fight? | John Lennon | Fab forum

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Did John cause Stu Sutcliffe's death in a fist fight?
16 August 2013
4.48pm
thesnazz
Casbah Coffee Club
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16 July 2013
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Sounds wierd huh?

But i read long ago that it actually did happen and was hushed
And blamed on thee old story, litherland town hall scuffle.

Mmmm theres one for mister sherlock homes to ponder over

THE SNAZZapple01

16 August 2013
5.09pm
mccartneyalarm
Carnegie Hall
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9 July 2013
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That is a story that has been going round forever. Truth (as I see it..I wasn't there) is that it was John who believed this after Stu died. He blamed himself for his death. Stu died of a cerebral hemorage (burst artery in brain). It may or may not have been the result of a scuffle (there were scuffle in Hamburg as well). I don't think anyone ever tried to cover anything up. I know Astrid never blamed John. John blamed John and I think that gave the story its life.

"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."

16 August 2013
6.02pm
acmac
Carnegie Hall
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1 August 2013
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IIRC, the story of John beating up Stu comes from Pauline Sutcliffe, Stu's sister. It may have since been corroborated by another source? Anyway, according to Pauline, John did wonder and agonize over whether he might have caused/worsened Stu's condition, but a doctor told Pauline no, it wouldn't have made any difference at all.

16 August 2013
8.43pm
Ron Nasty
"Where have you been?" "I'm not telling you..."
Apple rooftop
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17 December 2012
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Pauline Sutcliffe is firmly of the opinion that John was the cause of Stuart's death, stating in her 2001 biography of Stuart, The Beatles Shadow, Stuart Sutcliffe, & his lonely hearts club, "I believe that the cerebral hemorrhage that cost Stuart his life was caused by an injury inflicted by John in a jealous rage. A postmortem revealed Stuart had a dent in his skull, as though from a blow or kick. And a few months earlier, John had viciously kicked my brother in the head in a sustained, unprovoked attack."

There's an article on Steve Hoffman's forum from 2003 that talks about her opinion.

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/.....ims.18242/

However, her opinion is disputed, and Rockmine has a "virtual post-mortem" based on the known facts and evidence.

http://www.rockmine.com/Reaper.....StuPM.html

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
17 August 2013
12.14am
Von Bontee
A Hole In The Road
Apple rooftop
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14 December 2009
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The Love You Make alleges it was teddy boys.

One day, a tape-op got a tape on backwards, he went to play it, and it was all "Neeeradno-undowarrroom" and it was "Wow! Sounds Indian!" -- Paul McCartney
17 August 2013
12.34am
acmac
Carnegie Hall
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1 August 2013
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mja6758 said
Pauline Sutcliffe is firmly of the opinion that John was the cause of Stuart's death, stating in her 2001 biography of Stuart, The Beatles Shadow, Stuart Sutcliffe, & his lonely hearts club, "I believe that the cerebral hemorrhage that cost Stuart his life was caused by an injury inflicted by John in a jealous rage. A postmortem revealed Stuart had a dent in his skull, as though from a blow or kick. And a few months earlier, John had viciously kicked my brother in the head in a sustained, unprovoked attack."

Yeesh! I musta blocked that out. Who am I thinking of, then? Astrid? I'm sure somebody (a primary source) said that they were  told at the time by doctors that a blow to the head would not have made any difference to Stu's condition -- that it was a congenital thing or summat. 

 

17 August 2013
4.14am
Funny Paper
America
Apple rooftop
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1 November 2012
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mja, have you ever considered writing a book yourself about the Beatles?  I'm impressed by how much knowledge you have of so many facts about them.

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...
17 August 2013
5.26am
parlance
Slaggers
Apple rooftop
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8 November 2012
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Can this discussion be moved to the John section?

parlance

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17 August 2013
10.50am
Linde
The Netherlands
Apple rooftop
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21 November 2012
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Von Bontee said
The Love You Make alleges it was teddy boys.

 

That's what I've read in other places too, and that's also what's thought by many, that they just had a fight on the streets with some teddy boys.

 

Asked if she believed the punch-up with Lennon was the most significant contributing factor to her brother's death, she replied: "Yes." She also re-stated her belief that Sutcliffe and Lennon, who became close friends while studying together at Liverpool College of Art, had a homosexual affair. "John said himself at one point that this happened."

Lol. Sorry but I don't know if I can take this seriously. 

It's also very easy to say anything about John, since he's not able to defend himself anymore. Looks as if someone just needed money.

 

20 March 2014
2.14pm
Billy Rhythm
Shea Stadium
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22 December 2013
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Von Bontee said
The Love You Make alleges it was teddy boys.

  

Yeah, this is the first time that I've ever heard of John allegedly being responsible for Stu's death.  Most of the stories that I've read over the years haven't strayed too far from the "being jumped by Teddy Boys" story.  Supposedly all the band members were jumped late one night, except that most of them got away while Stu got left behind and kicked to the head.  I believe that part of the Teddy Boy "look" was to wear steel-tipped boots to inflict extra damage to victims of their angst and this was likely the cause of Stuart's fatal head wound.  The Teddy Boy incident also describes that John went back for Stu after the attack ended and was so horrified by the sight of him that he brought him to his Mother's house to leave him on the doorstep after ringing on the doorbell and running off!  It's possible that Stuart's Sister feels that John's responsible because of this happening, or blames him for not coming to his defence and leaving him behind, who knows.

Linde said 

It's also very easy to say anything about John, since he's not able to defend himself anymore. Looks as if someone just needed money.

 

I have a hard time taking this seriously because of this as well, had Pauline Sutcliffe witnessed this "sustained, unprovoked attack" by John first-hand, why not go to the authorities afterwards?  Why wait until after his (John's) death before coming out with this information?  Answer?  BECAUSE IT'S SIMPLY NOT TRUE...:-) 

16 April 2014
4.37pm
imtheTaxman
St Peters Church
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15 April 2014
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No. Stu was kicked in the head by rowdy fans or teddy boys outside the Cavern Club (?) and died of a brain hemorrhage a couple years later in Germany, I think. I read this in a biography of John Lennon I checked out from the library for a school project. 

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