Did John cause Stu Sutcliffe's death in a fist fight? | John Lennon | Fab forum

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Did John cause Stu Sutcliffe's death in a fist fight?
16 August 2013
4.48pm
thesnazz
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Sounds wierd huh?

But i read long ago that it actually did happen and was hushed
And blamed on thee old story, litherland town hall scuffle.

Mmmm theres one for mister sherlock homes to ponder over

THE SNAZZapple01

16 August 2013
5.09pm
mccartneyalarm
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That is a story that has been going round forever. Truth (as I see it..I wasn't there) is that it was John who believed this after Stu died. He blamed himself for his death. Stu died of a cerebral hemorage (burst artery in brain). It may or may not have been the result of a scuffle (there were scuffle in Hamburg as well). I don't think anyone ever tried to cover anything up. I know Astrid never blamed John. John blamed John and I think that gave the story its life.

"And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make."

16 August 2013
6.02pm
acmac
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IIRC, the story of John beating up Stu comes from Pauline Sutcliffe, Stu's sister. It may have since been corroborated by another source? Anyway, according to Pauline, John did wonder and agonize over whether he might have caused/worsened Stu's condition, but a doctor told Pauline no, it wouldn't have made any difference at all.

16 August 2013
8.43pm
Ron Nasty
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Pauline Sutcliffe is firmly of the opinion that John was the cause of Stuart's death, stating in her 2001 biography of Stuart, The Beatles Shadow, Stuart Sutcliffe, & his lonely hearts club, "I believe that the cerebral hemorrhage that cost Stuart his life was caused by an injury inflicted by John in a jealous rage. A postmortem revealed Stuart had a dent in his skull, as though from a blow or kick. And a few months earlier, John had viciously kicked my brother in the head in a sustained, unprovoked attack."

There's an article on Steve Hoffman's forum from 2003 that talks about her opinion.

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/.....ims.18242/

However, her opinion is disputed, and Rockmine has a "virtual post-mortem" based on the known facts and evidence.

http://www.rockmine.com/Reaper.....StuPM.html

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17 August 2013
12.14am
Von Bontee
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The Love You Make alleges it was teddy boys.

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17 August 2013
12.34am
acmac
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mja6758 said
Pauline Sutcliffe is firmly of the opinion that John was the cause of Stuart's death, stating in her 2001 biography of Stuart, The Beatles Shadow, Stuart Sutcliffe, & his lonely hearts club, "I believe that the cerebral hemorrhage that cost Stuart his life was caused by an injury inflicted by John in a jealous rage. A postmortem revealed Stuart had a dent in his skull, as though from a blow or kick. And a few months earlier, John had viciously kicked my brother in the head in a sustained, unprovoked attack."

Yeesh! I musta blocked that out. Who am I thinking of, then? Astrid? I'm sure somebody (a primary source) said that they were  told at the time by doctors that a blow to the head would not have made any difference to Stu's condition -- that it was a congenital thing or summat. 

 

17 August 2013
4.14am
Funny Paper
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mja, have you ever considered writing a book yourself about the Beatles?  I'm impressed by how much knowledge you have of so many facts about them.

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17 August 2013
5.26am
parlance
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Can this discussion be moved to the John section?

parlance

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17 August 2013
10.50am
Linde
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Von Bontee said
The Love You Make alleges it was teddy boys.

 

That's what I've read in other places too, and that's also what's thought by many, that they just had a fight on the streets with some teddy boys.

 

Asked if she believed the punch-up with Lennon was the most significant contributing factor to her brother's death, she replied: "Yes." She also re-stated her belief that Sutcliffe and Lennon, who became close friends while studying together at Liverpool College of Art, had a homosexual affair. "John said himself at one point that this happened."

Lol. Sorry but I don't know if I can take this seriously. 

It's also very easy to say anything about John, since he's not able to defend himself anymore. Looks as if someone just needed money.

 

20 March 2014
2.14pm
Billy Rhythm
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Von Bontee said
The Love You Make alleges it was teddy boys.

  

Yeah, this is the first time that I've ever heard of John allegedly being responsible for Stu's death.  Most of the stories that I've read over the years haven't strayed too far from the "being jumped by Teddy Boys" story.  Supposedly all the band members were jumped late one night, except that most of them got away while Stu got left behind and kicked to the head.  I believe that part of the Teddy Boy "look" was to wear steel-tipped boots to inflict extra damage to victims of their angst and this was likely the cause of Stuart's fatal head wound.  The Teddy Boy incident also describes that John went back for Stu after the attack ended and was so horrified by the sight of him that he brought him to his Mother's house to leave him on the doorstep after ringing on the doorbell and running off!  It's possible that Stuart's Sister feels that John's responsible because of this happening, or blames him for not coming to his defence and leaving him behind, who knows.

Linde said 

It's also very easy to say anything about John, since he's not able to defend himself anymore. Looks as if someone just needed money.

 

I have a hard time taking this seriously because of this as well, had Pauline Sutcliffe witnessed this "sustained, unprovoked attack" by John first-hand, why not go to the authorities afterwards?  Why wait until after his (John's) death before coming out with this information?  Answer?  BECAUSE IT'S SIMPLY NOT TRUE...:-) 

16 April 2014
4.37pm
imtheTaxman
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No. Stu was kicked in the head by rowdy fans or teddy boys outside the Cavern Club (?) and died of a brain hemorrhage a couple years later in Germany, I think. I read this in a biography of John Lennon I checked out from the library for a school project. 

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27 January 2015
5.51pm
Rising sun
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i've that story only in Goldman book, didn't about pauline Sutcliffe but i can't believe it's true. doggett writes that the cause was a fall from Atsrid home's stairs

30 January 2015
8.02pm
vivelareine
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No. John hit Stuart over the head with his guitar. 

How do I know? Because my father in law, John Twist, was at art school with John Lennon and also played guitar, with Rory Storm and the Hurricanes for a while. He was there at the time AND SAW JOHN DO IT.

John Twist thought it was because Stuart was gay and may have come on to John Lennon, who was utterly disgusted. Stuart didn't go to the police because it would have come out in court about his being gay which was illegal then. Stuart had no idea he was so badly injured. 

Anyone believe in karma?

31 January 2015
4.03pm
Zig
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Hello @vivelareine . Welcome to the Forum.

Did anyone else see this that can corroborate this story? I'm not questioning your or Mr. Twist's integrity, and can't speak for others here, but this is the first I've read about this particular origin of Stu's injuries. This is also the first time I've read the possibility that Stu was homosexual.

As for the Karma bit, I sincerely hope you are not suggesting John was murdered because he may or may not have hit Stu over the head with a guitar. If karma is real, I think it would have made John suffer in life with what he did and not release him in death. 

To the fountain of perpetual mirth, Let it roll for all its worth.

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31 January 2015
4.07pm
Annadog40
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ahdn_paul_06 Well John did suffer in life for a while.

Never say never, cause it's never 'never'

 

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31 January 2015
4.14pm
Zig
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No doubt about it, @Annadog40 . Who hasn't in some way?

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To the fountain of perpetual mirth, Let it roll for all its worth.

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31 January 2015
4.56pm
Expert Textpert
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Wouldn't Stu have been bisexual, not gay, since he was Astrid's boyfriend? Or maybe he just had "gay leanings."

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31 January 2015
5.18pm
Annadog40
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^ He could of also been Pansexual. 

Never say never, cause it's never 'never'

 

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31 January 2015
5.19pm
Expert Textpert
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Does that mean he was into pans, pots, and kitchen utensils?

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31 January 2015
6.39pm
Annadog40
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Expert Textpert said
Does that mean he was into pans, pots, and kitchen utensils?

Nope: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki.....nsexuality

 

*the more you know*

Never say never, cause it's never 'never'

 

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