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Brian Jones and The Beatles
13 August 2012
9.43pm
allyouneedisloveandpeace
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It's widely known that Brian Jones appeared on a few Beatles and the band were acquaintances with the Rolling Stones. In the film Stoned, which is based on Brian Jones' life, it was said that he was considering joining the beatles. If he would've, how do you think he would've impacted their sound, do you think the band would've alienated him like the Rolling Stones did?

13 August 2012
11.22pm
vonbontee
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Well, I know that Brian felt marginalized within the Stones because he couldn't or wouldn't write. So whether he would've used that to his advantage, or simply changed his ways, is surely a factor.

I like black music, disco music. I like the disco music that's out now - John Lennon, 1975
13 August 2012
11.42pm
mr. Sun king coming together
Nowhere Land
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Why the hell would The Beatles take him? They wouldn't, at least not as an equal partner. They never would actually make the full step of taking another member on. So, wouldn't named marginalization (what the Stones were offering) be better then anonymous marginalization (which is the nicest reception he'd get from the Beatles)?

I tried to think of something powerful and moving… and failed.  "You were given a choice between war and dishonor - you chose dishonor, and you shall have war" - Winston Churchill
13 August 2012
11.56pm
meanmistermustard
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Brian Jones was a mate in the earlier days but by the end was a drag to be around. Also he would have had next to no influence in decisions or ideas of how songs were recorded, it was crowded enough in the later days with just the 4 so Brian wouldnt have had a look in. An occasional call up to play a part of a song maybe but nothing more and with the way the beatles tried out parts then rejected them there is no guarantee it would make the final mix.

"Well, probably we'll sell less records, less people'll go to see the film, we'll write less songs, and we'll all die of failure" (John Lennon 8/64)
14 August 2012
7.13am
JET!
Rockin' in two by two
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I agree, I think that if the Stones couldn't handle Brian towards the end of his life I don't see the Beatles having a lot of tolerance for him either. He was apparently becoming very possesive of the Stones, which is another reason why he wouldn't have joined the Beatles – he thought the Stones were HIS band and HE was the leader. Though because he didn't write songs, that was just in his head.

His attitude wouldn't really have fit in with the Beatles.

The sunshine bores the daylights outta me
14 August 2012
12.31pm
Ben Ramon
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Agreed with everything said above. He wouldn't have fitted in with them in any way, personality-wise or musically; it's documented that the only type of music he had any interest in was the blues, and he wasn't much of a songwriter. Plus, his drug struggles and depression would have made him nothing but a hindrance in a band where dedication to work and high quality output was such a factor.

SHUT UP - Paulie's talkin'
14 August 2012
4.49pm
The Walrus
Working for the national health
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He could only have joined if George had left and Clapton wasn't interested in joining.

Assuming he did join in the Let It Be sessions when George stormed out, I think Get Back would have turned out like Aftermath. I can imagine him playing on One After 909, I've Got A Feeling, and the other songs performed on the rooftop. I can't imagine him being impressed with Let It Be, TLAWR, and so forth, and ofc the album would lose the Harrison numbers. He'd either need to put up with there being songs on there he didn't like, or they would have needed covers, or Paul could have written some more songs (maybe Brian could have worked on Oh! Darling or She's So Heavy?).

And I neeeeeeeeed her all the time
14 August 2012
5.22pm
vonbontee
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Oh, Brian was into ALL sorts of exotic music aside from blues. He made that Master Musicians of Joujouka record, after all. Plus he developed an interest in classical Indian music around the same time as (and independently of) George Harrison. He was able to get some interesting sounds out of unusual instruments like the marimba and dulcimer and etc., which would have come in handy in '66-68 when the Beatles were trying so many different instrumental combinations. Other than that, I can't think of any consistent role he'd fill in a band that already had two (and often three) guitarists. I guess he'd be able to better help them recreate live some of their recorded efforts, if they'd wanted to go that route. That's about all.

(Oh, and JET!: If Brian thought of the Stones as HIS band, it's only because, y'know, he STARTED it!)

I like black music, disco music. I like the disco music that's out now - John Lennon, 1975
14 August 2012
11.23pm
JET!
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Well he was certainly one of the founding members, but I wouldn't say he "started" it himself. From what I know, he was playing with a band alongside Ian Stewart and Charlie Watts (a band called Blues Incorperated) when Mick and Keef found him. From there, the Stones formed. It seemed everyone had a fairly equal part in the forming of the band, but Ian Stewart really took control, finding practice space, transportation, etc.

Keith talks about this somewhere in his book as well. He says if it was anyone's band, though it's hard to say that because they were all equals in his mind, it was Stewart's because of everything he did for the band, even after he was no longer part of the band onstage. I can't remember clearly but somewhere along the way, Brian starting wanting control. I think he was pretty well spoken though, which is why he was doing a lot of the interviews and such on their behalf.

The sunshine bores the daylights outta me
14 August 2012
11.40pm
vonbontee
Inside a Letterbox
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OK fair enough. Got my history wrong!

I like black music, disco music. I like the disco music that's out now - John Lennon, 1975
15 August 2012
12.28am
The Walrus
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I think in Revolution in the Head, MacDonald talks about Brian playing the role that George did in the Beatles and Dave Davies did in the Kinks of keeping up to date with the latest records from America. Blues was his favourite type of music, but he wasn't tied to it.

And I neeeeeeeeed her all the time
21 August 2012
5.33pm
Joe
Pepperland
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Quick fact: I went to a funeral yesterday in the same place that Brian Jones was cremated (in Cheltenham, England).

Please don't spoil my day; I'm miles away

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21 December 2012
12.24pm
NoStonesWithoutBrianJones
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Greetings.

Just can't let this pass……

If "Life" by Keith Richard is the basis for some believing Brian Jones role in the Stones wasn't what it has been widely accepted as being for, oh I don't know—the last 50 years, one should only consider the source.

I know that sounds funny, but Keith simply isn't trustworthy anymore.

Bill Wyman (1997) Stone Alone

As the official historian of the band I'd suggest you trust Wyman.  In this book he details thoroughly and with passion both the horrible about Brian as well as he makes it his personal mission to give Brian his due—-a well deserved due indeed—and one that Mick to a small extent and Keith to a very large extent have tried to erase over the years.

One need only examine Keith's own words over the years to see how his opinion of Brian has changed year by year.

Perhaps guilt over Anita Pallenberg or Brian's death or both…….

The fact remains.

Brian placed the ad looking for bandmates.

Ian Stewart joined Brian first.

Brian was playing in a club (slide guitar "Dust my Broom")

Mick and Keith were there….blown away by his playing (he is widely credited as the first white musician to play slide guitar in England)…and approached Brian.

He invited them, along with Dick Chapman, to join.

They did.  Brian got the early bookings and came up with the NAME.

Later, with assistance from Andrew Loog Oldham, Mick & Keith (as songwriters) supplanted Brian as leaders.  That was understandable – but Brian did resent it.  Thus, he lost interest in guitar and began a campaign to put his own "signature" on their recordings….and what a fine job he did – the signature riff on "The Last Time" and sitar on "Paint it, Black" and dulcimer on "Lady Jane" and marimbas on "Under my Thumb" and recorder on "Ruby Tuesday" and mellotron on "We Love You" and perhaps his finest moment – slide on "No Expectations"—-and is to name but a very few.  If you've never heard "Expectations" you simply owe it to yourself you to hit you tube and take a listen.

But, Brian was fatally flawed as a human being – and he did a lot to alienate himself from the band.  Mick, Keith, and Brian were a truly "bad" triangle relationship – Bill's book goes into great detail to recount this as Bill himself also suffered mightily under the glimmers cruel jokes – at least until Brian replaced him as the brunt of that cruelty.  Brian set himself up for it.

His subsequent drug busts (two) and the loss of Anita to Keith did nothig to help his paranoia and the already fragile state he was in.

If you listen to Mick's comments in recent years it's clear he has regrets about their treatment of him, but he does also say Brian made himself a target for it.  Fact is, they were young.  That explains a lot of it.

Keith, on the other hand, has really hardened over the years about Brian…but I firmly believe he loved Brian.  Part of this hardening is guilt, in my opinon, but part is also anger that Brian made himself a target for their actions.  You know, Brian, man, how could you do that to me."  I don't like Keith anymore…in fact, I have no use for him.  He's become a caricature of himself.  I'd respect him more if he'd just say "Ive never gotten over the guilt and anger but BRIAN was crucial to the development of the band – in fact, he created it and I loved the guy."

It's odd that he and Bill see things so differently…but, certainly, Bill has no axe to grind.  When they went down to Cotchford Farm to "fire" Brian, only Mick, Keith, and Charlie went.

As for Brian and the Bealtes – we know all too well how highly they thought of Brian.

We have their very own words on the subject.

Quotes:

George – " I used to know Brian quite well.  We had similar positions in our bands.  I was with John & Paul and he was with Mick & Keith.  I used to see him in his times of trouble.  He was a kind person and that's what we must remember he was.  There was nothing wrong with him that a little love wouldn't have sorted out."

John (Lennon Remembers – Rolling Stone 1970 Jann Wenner) - "He was one of them guys that disintegrated right in front of you.  In the early days he was alright because he was young and confident.  But in the end he was one of them guys that you dreaded he'd come on the phone – you knew it was trouble.  He was in a lot of pain.  And he wasn't sort of brilliant.  He was just a nice guy."

Paul – "He arrived at Abbey Road in his big Afghan coat.  He was always nervous, a little insecure, and he's really nervous that night – he's walking in on a Beatles recording session.  He was nervous to the point of shaking….lighting ciggy after ciggy.  I used to like Brian a lot.  Brian always had a good word.  He had a good ole sense of humor.  I remember laughing and giggling with him a lot.  He was lovely.  We used to get on like a house on fire.  I remember he came to a recording session.  We thought he bring a guitar but he opens this case – and there is a saxopohone.  We said "well, we have this little number."  It's you know my name and Brian plays the sax.  It's not terribly well played – a ropey sax solo – but it was just what we wanted.  Brian was VERY GOOD like that."

John once gave Brian what would have been good advice.  (Up and Down with the Rolling Stones by Tony Sanchez) – "Once, in the Ad Lib, Brian was complaining about Mick & Keith's treatment of him."  John replies  "Brian, if the Stones are slagging you off – start your own band.  You're a big star."  Had Brian not died that was exaclty what he was planning to do.  It is a confirmed fact he contacted Alexis Korner, Ben Palmer (formerly of Rooster), as well as Steve Marriot (Humble Pie) and Mitch Mitchell (Jimi Hendrix Experience) about possibly working together.  Some say that he also recorded (in 1968) a demo with John Lennon and Denny Laine a track called "Go to the Mountains" in an ad hoc band called, of all things, BALLS.  Someone should ask Denny for further details about this but he has mentioned it before in an interview. 

http://www.garagehangover.com/…..ennylaine/

October 1968 Returning to Britain, Laine jams with the ad-hoc outfit Balls, which features John Lennon and Rolling Stone Brian Jones. The band reportedly records a song titled Go To The Mountains for Apple but it is never released. Around this time, he reunites with Mike Lease, who is working with John Martyn’s wife, singer/songwriter, Beverly Kutner. Lease agrees to help Laine audition bass players and drummers for a new version of Balls but despite finding suitable musicians, including drummer Peter Phillips, the line up never settles.

I wonder if the name was an inside joke – you know – it would take %$##@ for us to leave the Beatles and Stones and go off together.  We'll never know, ofcourse, but one thing is sure.  They were both unhappy in their respective groups and they were fast friends.  John has stated emphatically before his death that he was closer to Brian than the other Stones.

 

Anyway……my first post on the forum.  Big Brian fan, obviously.  Don't you hate that so many think Brian played on "Baby" when, in fact it, was a clavionet and NOT a saxophone.  Ofcourse, he did clank glasses together on "Submarine."

By the way, the late Noel Redding, after Brian's dismissal from the band, was quoted as saying "that's it, then.  There's no Rolling Stones without Brian Jones."

To say he was admired and loved by fellow musicians, at least those outside the Stones camp, would be a mild understatement.

Hendrix performed "Like a Rolling Stone" on Johhny Carson and dedicated it to Brian.

Hendrix had a soft spot for Brian and, when Band of Gypsies was released, the European and U.K. versions featured a "puppet cover."  The 4 puppets – none other than Jimi, Bob Dylan, U.K. DJ John Peel, and Jimi's friend Brian Jones.  He wanted the 3 most influential people in his career on the cover with him.  Produced by Hendrix and released just six months before his death in 1970, this was the last album he authorized.

Jim Morrison purportedly had a room in his home that had photographs of Brian Jones plastered all over it.  We do know he wrote a poem called "Ode to L.A. while thinking of Brian Jones, deceased."  He had it distributed at their L.A. Forum concert.  You can find it by googling.  It's really something.

ODE TO LA WHILE THINKING OF BRIAN JONES, DECEASED

I'm a resident of a city
They've just picked me to play
the Prince of Denmark

Poor Ophelia

All those ghosts he never saw
Floating to doom
On an iron candle

Come back, brave warrior
Do the dive
On another channel

Hot buttered pool
Where's Marrakesh
Under the falls
the wild storm
where savages fell out
in late afternoon
monsters of rhythm

You've left your
Nothing
to compete w/
Silence

I hope you went out
Smiling
Like a child
Into the cool remnant
of a dream

The angel man
w/ Serpents competing
for his palms
& fingers
Finally claimed
This benevolent
Soul

Ophelia

Leaves, sodden
in silk

Chlorine
dream
mad stifled
Witness

The diving board, the plunge
The pool

You were a fighter
a damask musky muse

You were the bleached
Sun
for TV afternoon

horned-toads
maverick of a yellow spot

Look now to where it's got
You

in meat heaven
w/ the cannibals
& jews

The gardener
Found
The body, rampant, Floating

Lucky Stiff
What is this green pale stuff
You're made of

Poke holes in the goddess
Skin

Will he Stink
Carried heavenward
Thru the halls
of music

No Chance.

Requiem for a heavy
That smile
That porky satyr's
leer
has leaped upward

into the loam

Me personally, I love the line "You were the bleached sun for TV afternoon."  Jim, ofcourse was referring to Brian's beautiful blone har and the fact that he often saw Jones on TV, especially on Ed Sullivan and other shows like Top of the Pops.

Pete Townshend wrote a song called "A Normal Day for Brian."

In 1972, Mick Jagger finally has the Stones record a song he had been working on, off and on, since 1969 called "Shine a Light" It appears on the Rolling Stones record "Exile on Main Street."

Lyrics, as follows:

Saw you stretched out in room ten-o-nine
With a smile on your face
And a tear right in your eye
Couldn't seem to get a line on you
My sweet honey love
Berber jewelry jangling down the street
Making bloodshot your eyes at ev'ry woman that you meet
Could not seem to get a high on you
My sweet honey love

May the good lord shine a light on you
Make every song your favourite tune
May the good lord shine a light on you
Warm like the evening sun

Well, you're drunk in the alley, baby
With your clothes all torn
And your late night friends
Leave you in the cold grey dawn
Just seemed too many flies on you
I just can't brush them off

Angels beating all their wings in time
With smiles on their faces
And a gleam right in their eyes
Thought I heard one sigh for you
Come on up, come on up, now
Come on up, now

May the good lord shine a light on you
Make every song you sing your favourite tune
May the good lord shine a light on you
Warm like the evening sun

 

Mick has since acknowledged that he wrote the song about Brian's increasingly debiitating drug abuse and enstrangement from the band.  Brian, ofcourse, was famous for his wearing of Berber jewelry.  The "passed out in a room with a smile and a tear" line refers to the bands recording of "You Can't Always Get What You Want."  Jimmy Miller, the late great recording engineer, had stated that Brian did not participate in YCAGWYW.  He simply lay in the corner, alternating between tears and smiling as he read a book on botany (He had only recently bought Cotchford Farm, the former home of A.A. Milne, the author of Winne the Pooh.  He states that at that point Brian was broken hearted at losing the Stones and had turned increasingly more to alcohol and drugs to mute the pain.

Finally, a few words from another guy who loved Brian.

At the Stones Rock n Roll Hall of Fame induction, Pete Townshend inducted them and said:

"And Brian Jones hurt me by not bothering to take a cure. Because I loved him a lot. He was very, very important to me. He was the first real star who befriended me in a real way – I spent a lot of time with him before I really got to know Mick and Keith, who I love very much now. But he was the… I hung out with him quite a lot, and I've missed him terribly, and I always felt than when he finally did collapse, that the Stones were a very different group."

Couldn't have said it better myself, Pete……………………………….

By the way, my avatar photo of John, Yoko, and Julian with Brian at the Stones Rock n Roll Circus is one of my favorite Brian photos, and sadly, so is this one.

John Lennon reads about the tragic death of his friend, Brian Jones:

Enough for now.  You probably know more than you ever wanted to about Brian Jones.

 

NoStonesWithoutBrianJones

 

22 December 2012
11.31pm
Von Bontee
A Hole In The Road
Apple rooftop
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Epic post up there, NoStones! I agree that Keef was unfairly dismissive of Brian's talents in his book. I don't know why he's felt the need to dimish Brian's legacy in recent years – his own legacy is secure, and indeed he had more respectful things to say about Brian in various 70s and 80s interviews.

I don't believe Jimi had any creative input into that Band of Gypsys album cover, however. That was only the European album cover, after all, and everything to do with that album after recording, editing and mixing was kind of an afterthought. No question he and Brian were close, though, a closer friendship than between either of them to any other Stone.

One day, a tape-op got a tape on backwards, he went to play it, and it was all "Neeeradno-undowarrroom" and it was "Wow! Sounds Indian!" -- Paul McCartney
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