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11.18pm
19 April 2010
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Into the Sky with Diamonds said
Who doesn’t want peace? It’s just that everyone wants it on their terms.
Slightly off topic – but here is where people get confused – do people want peace or freedom? It’s easy to have peace with no freedom (North Korea for example) – but freedom always takes a war to achieve – sad but true.
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11.47pm
Reviewers
17 December 2012
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Not strictly true. The former Soviet block all gained freedom without war, and many of them – East Germany, Hungary, Poland, etc., found where they wanted to be in the world without a shot being fired. Yes, unfortunately, some did descend into ethnic violence, but that was largely in those countries that had been constructed in the 20th Century. And in recent years, again unfortunately, we have seen Russia flexing its muscles about countries that must not leave its sphere of influence (Georgia, Ukraine) and move towards Western Europe.
Those cases, however, do not change my basic point that war is not always to gain freedom.
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The Beatles Bible 2020 non-Canon Poll Part One: 1958-1963 and Part Two: 1964-August 1966
7.09pm
19 April 2010
Offline Not strictly true. The former Soviet block all gained freedom without war, and many of them – East Germany, Hungary, Poland, etc., found where they wanted to be in the world without a shot being fired. Yes, unfortunately, some did descend into ethnic violence, but that was largely in those countries that had been constructed in the 20th Century. And in recent years, again unfortunately, we have seen Russia flexing its muscles about countries that must not leave its sphere of influence (Georgia, Ukraine) and move towards Western Europe. Those cases, however, do not change my basic point that war is not always to gain freedom.
Not to be argumentative – but the idea that the USSR fell without a shot being fired is a US/Western Europe construct (and I’m from the US). I am fairly sure that the thousands upon thousands of people who fought Soviet oppression and died fighting for their freedom for over 80 years (the Polish Solidarity movement, Yugoslavia, Afghans, East Germans, Czechoslovakians, Serbs, Croatians etc., – not mention Russian dissidents) would beg to differ.
I agree that war is not always to gain freedom, however it is sad but true that freedom is never gained without bloodshed. Into the Sky with Diamonds said “Who doesn’t want peace? It’s just that everyone wants it on their terms.”
Which is why I made the distinction between whether people want freedom or peace. Even John Lennon himself ultimately understood this which is why he “fought” (there’s all types of wars) to stay in the US – even though he felt his life was at risk. If he’d just wanted peace he could have gone back to England, but what he really wanted was freedom – artistic and otherwise.
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7.48pm
Reviewers
17 December 2012
Offline I should have said barely a shot, and I did intend to, don’t know how that got lost! However, my point was that it doesn’t always take a war.
If we zoom in on just one, East Germany. Yes, many East Germans died seeking freedom, however there was no war needed when East Germany gained freedom and the two halves unified. The same goes for, in their time, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and Poland. They may all have had freedom movements suppressed, with Poland being the most recent of them at the time, but they were not at the time they gained freedom.
Obviously, Czechoslovakia is a slightly different case as the Czechs and Slovaks didn’t come of gaining their freedom without bloodshed – but I recognised that.
My point was, history aside, how many people died in the 1989/1990 move from Soviet domination to democracy in East Germany, Hungary and Poland? And what WAR was there, in those examples at that time?
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The Beatles Bible 2020 non-Canon Poll Part One: 1958-1963 and Part Two: 1964-August 1966
12.04pm
19 April 2010
Offline My point was, history aside, how many people died in the 1989/1990 move from Soviet domination to democracy in East Germany, Hungary and Poland? And what WAR was there, in those examples at that time?
And my point is that the time frame we should be looking at is from about 1950 – 1990 – that was the length of what we call the “Cold War”. 1989/1990 is the date of the end of that war. That is actually the surrender of the war – not the war itself.
"She looks more like him than I do."
3.23pm
3 May 2012
Offline Though it’s good to discuss important subjects, perhaps we should keep this to a more appropriate thread? (here, for example: https://www.beatlesbible.com/f…..ad-thread/ )
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10.36pm
17 January 2014
Offline MJA love the video post, it gave people a great way to voice there opinion in a peaceful manner as opposed to rioting. It wasn’t meant to be genius or anything, it was meant to promote an opinion or idea which it was successful of. This was a confusing time for the people of the entire world. A time when anti-establishment was growing throughout the entire world. People were very confused and weren’t sure what to do. Like Berkley was an example of protesting/control gone wrong. John is just promoting that if action is going to be taken by either side pro-war or anti, that it should be attempted in a peaceful manner. So in retrospect I think it was great PR work on Johns part and provided an amazing medium for people to voice opinion.It is also showing people you don’t have to just protest by marching the streets, that there are other ways to protest. I think they also handled the media frenzy that ensued the bed-in, the best way possible. Also the media were panning John and Yoko at the time, so he gave them a twist if there gonna be covering me anyway why not promote peace. This is a great documentary on the Toronto Bed In.
10.12am
14 November 2017
Offline I don’t think it was either stupid or genius. I just think that it was a way that they chose to get their peace message across,and it obviously generated a lot of attention and interest. The completely ‘out there’ nature of it, and the bag event,was so typical of John and Yoko. I say good on them for doing it,even if Lennon’s influence did worry people in the US government at the time,hence why they did everything they could to get him deported. It’s just extremely sad to me that,after fighting for so long to remain in the country, John then had his life taken away by some madman
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10.34am
1 November 2013
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Maybe they were just tired and wanted to take a nap but a bunch of reporters stomped.
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10.49am
Moderators
15 February 2015
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It’s not for peace, it’s what ye call half eleven at night!
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12.36pm
14 November 2017
Offline Starr Shine? said
Maybe they were just tired and wanted to take a nap but a bunch of reporters stomped.
I think John said that a load of reporters were banging on the doors and windows trying to get in “I think they thought we were having sex or something”,but that the reporters got a massive shock when they were let in,and they were just sitting up in bed talking about peace, and letting your hair grow until everybody found peace. It’s a very simple concept when you think about it. I rewatched ‘The US vs John Lennon ‘ when it was re aired here on the anniversary of his death the other day. The simplicity of what they were hoping to achieve still hits home whenever I watch it. I just wonder what he’d make of the world today if he was here. I’m sure he’s watching somewhere though
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1.43pm
Reviewers
14 April 2010
Offline Father McKenzie said
just wonder what he’d make of the world today if he was here.
As dearly as I have missed John, I am glad he is not here to see it.
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3.04pm
14 November 2017
Offline Zig said
Father McKenzie said
just wonder what he’d make of the world today if he was here.As dearly as I have missed John, I am glad he is not here to see it.
I know what you mean Zig. I think he’d be devastated at all the stuff that’s going on. I’d love to get his opinion on Donald Trump too. I wasn’t even born until 1985, and I still miss him.
Here’s a question: If he hadn’t won his deportation case, and had to return to England, would he still be alive today?
A mention here for Yoko too,who I believe is now wheelchair bound 
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3.17pm
Reviewers
14 April 2010
Offline Father McKenzie said
Here’s a question: If he hadn’t won his deportation case, and had to return to England, would he still be alive today?
An interesting question, but too many variables to consider. He could have been run over by a bus.
Wouldn’t that have been ironic?
If still alive, he would be 77. Ringo is also 77, but in great shape. Then again, if John were still alive, would Ringo be as healthy as he is today if you consider he could have still cavorted with John for years? So many questions that are fun to debate. Good thing we have a Forum in which to do it.
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3.34pm
14 November 2017
Offline Zig said
Father McKenzie said
Here’s a question: If he hadn’t won his deportation case, and had to return to England, would he still be alive today?
An interesting question, but too many variables to consider. He could have been run over by a bus.
Wouldn’t that have been ironic?
If still alive, he would be 77. Ringo is also 77, but in great shape. Then again, if John were still alive, would Ringo be as healthy as he is today if you consider he could have still cavorted with John for years? So many questions that are fun to debate. Good thing we have a Forum in which to do it.
Hahaha,yeah,that was my thinking. The debate on that one could go on for ever I’d say. John and Ringo out on the town at 77. That would be something to see. Re that bus: there are now fab 4 taxi cabs in Liverpool too:
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5.30pm
Reviewers
Moderators
1 May 2011
Offline I happened to catch a discussion on tv this morning on whether it was right for celebrities to be involved in appeals on tv, some report has come out criticising some celebs as its felt their appeals are more about them than the cause. It reminded me of all the criticism John and Yoko received 48 years ago where they did all these “stunts” for peace and John said he was prepared to look an absolute fool if it got the message across and people talking about it.
I felt very proud of John and Yoko. I think John would be too.
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6.37pm
10 March 2017
Offline While it was a nice gesture it was a stupid idea because world peace is impossible and there will be people like Hitler and Osama Bin Laden where they’ll give people every reason to kill and those who believe that these things can be fought peacefully will be fraud upon regardless of how right they are. If you want war you’ve got it, if you don’t want war you’ve still got it going on around you. Expecting world peace is like expecting everybody to be vegetarian it ain’t gonna happen no matter how hard you try, you can become a pacifist but violence will always be there and there’s nothing you can do about it.
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6.58pm
Reviewers
Moderators
1 May 2011
Offline Dark Overlord said
While it was a nice gesture it was a stupid idea because world peace is impossible and there will be people like Hitler and Osama Bin Laden where they’ll give people every reason to kill and those who believe that these things can be fought peacefully will be fraud upon regardless of how right they are. If you want war you’ve got it, if you don’t want war you’ve still got it going on around you. Expecting world peace is like expecting everybody to be vegetarian it ain’t gonna happen no matter how hard you try, you can become a pacifist but violence will always be there and there’s nothing you can do about it.
You have to try otherwise there is no point in even bothering hoping for better. I truly dislike the viewpoint of won’t work, why waste time trying?
I have always been of the opinion that I will leave work having desperately fought for something I have no chance of changing, but sometimes you have to fight for what you believe is right knowing you are going to lose and nothing will change, if not you risk losing the very core of your beliefs and self.
Additionally, whilst John didn’t bring about world peace, if only one person turned from anger towards others to acceptance and love, I think it was worth it. If we started accepting others for who they are, all faults included, then maybe we might start to move a more peaceful world instead of where we seem to be heading.
"I told you everything I could about me, Told you everything I could" ('Before Believing' - Emmylou Harris)
7.29pm
26 January 2017
Offline @Dark Overlord, I think it is important to set standards at an unrealistic level. Of you never dream of or expect peace, how can it ever be acheived. The right amount of violence is no violence. Even if it does not happen in real life, if we lower the bar to people like Hitler and Osama Bin Ladin’s standard then they will continue to exist in the world.
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4.56pm
Moderators
Members
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20 August 2013
Offline Unknown footage of John Lennon , Yoko Ono resurfaces after 50 years
https://www.afp.com/en/news/15…..oc-1fa3l31
From the article
Fifty years after John Lennon and Yoko Ono famously staged a honeymoon “bed-in” for peace in an Amsterdam hotel, a Dutchman has unearthed 30 minutes of colour footage of the event from his cellar.
I wonder when we will get to see it, if ever. Surely Yoko would want us to see this.
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