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Who do you think should be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame that isn't
3 May 2013
8.45am
Funny Paper
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"I believe – not speaking for him, but my interpretation – that he means it that narrowing the definition of rock n roll to classic arena rock is racially limiting because that kind of rock is dominated by white people."

Tough beans.  If the majority of rockers are white, then so be it.  The majority of rappers and soul artists are black.  Bully for them.  It reflects reality.  Reality isn't homogenous.  Stop trying to make reality fit your agenda.

 

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3 May 2013
1.59pm
parlance
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Funny Paper said
Reality isn't homogenous.

Highly ironic argument to make given that the point is to recognize achievements in rock while reflecting its true diversity.

Stop trying to make reality fit your agenda.

Better to constrict it to fit your own, then. Got it.

parlance

 

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3 May 2013
2.09pm
parlance
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Into the Sky with Diamonds said
This is easy:

JETHRO TULL !!!!!

Their first 4 albums were remarkable and they've had a huge following. What more could you ask for? (OK, after Aqualung they kinda got commercial and sold out to The Man and started selling lots of records, but their first 4 albums should be enough to qualify)

I went to high school with the world's biggest Jethro Tull fan. He would be pumping his fist if he were reading this. :-)

 

Answer: The Hall of Fame has an anti-British bias.

I hadn't thought of that. I gave up long time ago on the idea that Duran Duran would ever make it into the HoF as long as Jann Wenner is alive. But I always thought of that as more a bias against bands that were perceived to appeal to young girls than an anti-British bias, that's an interesting theory.

parlance

Beware of sadness. It can hit you. It can hurt you. Make you sore and what is more, that is not what you are here for. - George

Check out my fan video for Paul's song "Appreciate" at YouTube and Vimeo.

3 May 2013
5.56pm
Into the Sky with Diamonds
New York
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I spoke to one of the Hall of Fame voters. He's was Springsteen's manager and a former critic - I'm blanking on his name. He told me Jethro Tull was a "minor band" ....

That got me thinking of who's in and who's out, and it seems to me that band for band there's a pro-American (or anti-British) bias, depending on how you choose to look at it. (Yes, of course there are a number of British acts.)

Consider that the (American) Buffalo Springfield are in. Granted, they had Steve Stills and Neil Young who would go on to greater things, but the band was around just a few years and had ONE hit ("For What It's Worth".) Now I love everything about that song, but still, their output was measly, and I don't think they were particularly influential.

The Eagles used the same chord progression a few years later on "Hotel California":

Rightly or wrongly, their most famous song:

"Into the Sky with Diamonds" (the Beatles and the Race to the Moon – a history)
3 May 2013
9.01pm
Holsety
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The Rock Hall probably considers British bands to a lesser extent because it's based in America, but to be fair, that's no excuse. They've inducted several people who I've never heard of, and that many albums from hall artists are inferior to the masterful Odyssey and Oracle, thoroughly disturbs me. I was pretty disappointed not to see them for the recent inductions, because I'm very fervent that they finally induct them.

Quite influential, as well.

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3 May 2013
9.38pm
Zig
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Me.

Not necessarily as an inductee - I will settle for visitor.

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3 May 2013
10.56pm
Von Bontee
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Intothesky, that's Jon Landau you're referring to up there. He's been mentioned here before.

There's not anti-English bias in the Hall - the founders are, I believe, mostly white American baby-boomers; and many of the bands who were most important to that demographic have been inducted. There is a sort of class-bias, though, it seems; there seems to be a prejudice against art-rockers. And since the English largely specialized in that sort of band, it would appear to support an imagined anti-English agenda. (And that's why no Jethro Tull.) Most of the major original wave of British Invasion bands are in there. The Zombies were just fine, but kinda marginal in the grand scheme. No room for everybody!

FunnyPaper, Miles Davis's 1970-75 albums are all at least as much "rock" as jazz.

One day, a tape-op got a tape on backwards, he went to play it, and it was all "Neeeradno-undowarrroom" and it was "Wow! Sounds Indian!" -- Paul McCartney
4 May 2013
7.40am
Funny Paper
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If there were a Jazz Hall of Fame, I would exclude 75% of my favorite musicians and bands from being honored by it -- because they didn't do jazz, for fuck sake.

 

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4 May 2013
11.42pm
Holsety
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They're probably the most important Invasion band that isn't inducted, yet. I know Deep Purple, Chicago and others aren't either but that's a different era. They deserve to be in. As new albums keep becoming eligible for the hall, more bands will be inducted. It'll be a long time before they run out of bands to induct; they probably won't.

It surely makes more sense for them to be in than Public Enemy.. 

Please don't wake me, no don't shake me, leave me where I am, I'm only sleeping~.
5 May 2013
1.24am
Into the Sky with Diamonds
New York
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Von Bontee said, "that's Jon Landau you're referring to."

Exactly.

I think of Yes as being an art-rock band, but not Jethro Tull - at least not the Jethro Tull that belongs in the Hall of Fame.

I don't care for much of anything of theirs after Aqualung, so maybe that's when they became art-rocky.

Deep Purple not in the Hall of Fame???? I mean really....

I think the Zombies are a little tougher to make a case for, though you could argue that they were no less good than the Buffalo Springfield.

"Into the Sky with Diamonds" (the Beatles and the Race to the Moon – a history)
5 May 2013
3.09am
Holsety
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Bands like Yes and Moody Blues aren't either if I recall correctly. I know Deep Purple's been considered, though. The Zombies haven't, so I don't see why they randomly would 23 or 24 years later.. It's unlikely that we'll see the Zombies enter the hall.

Please don't wake me, no don't shake me, leave me where I am, I'm only sleeping~.
5 May 2013
3.41am
Von Bontee
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Funny Paper said

If there were a Jazz Hall of Fame, I would exclude 75% of my favorite musicians and bands from being honored by it -- because they didn't do jazz, for fuck sake.

 

See, now, if you're gonna limit the definition of "rock and roll" and what's to be ultimately eligible for a hall of fame honouring it, why not go all the way and limit it only to the dozen-or-so originators of the form? Elvis, Chuck Berry, Little Richard and a few others. Nobody who recorded after Buddy Holly's plane crash is eligible. A Jazz Hall of Fame that had such strict exclusionary limitations would have no place for Miles Davis either - it'd feature nothing but Dixieland!

Like it or not, rock evolved and split off into multiple other forms, including soul, heavy metal, R&B, folk-rock, rap, etc. As such, Jazz-fusion is a legitimate musical sub-genre, and there is arguably no representative figure more worthy of induction than Miles, not just for his own music but for the many eventual jazz-rocking bandleaders who came up through his bands.

[Incidentally, thank you for introducing me to Crow, who I have legit never ever heard of until yesterday! And now I find that they even had a Top 20 single which I've likewise never heard; and that Black Sabbath even covered the song on the UK version of their debut! Can't believe I haven't encountered all this info until just now. Crazy...]

One day, a tape-op got a tape on backwards, he went to play it, and it was all "Neeeradno-undowarrroom" and it was "Wow! Sounds Indian!" -- Paul McCartney
5 May 2013
3.45am
Von Bontee
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Into the Sky with Diamonds said

Von Bontee said, "that's Jon Landau you're referring to."

Exactly.

I think of Yes as being an art-rock band, but not Jethro Tull - at least not the Jethro Tull that belongs in the Hall of Fame.

I don't care for much of anything of theirs after Aqualung, so maybe that's when they became art-rocky.

.

.

That's precisely when they became arty! Recorded two albums consisting of a SINGLE SONG each, started including librettos with their liner notes, stuff like that. (I prefer their earlier albums myself, too.)

One day, a tape-op got a tape on backwards, he went to play it, and it was all "Neeeradno-undowarrroom" and it was "Wow! Sounds Indian!" -- Paul McCartney
5 May 2013
5.30am
parlance
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Von Bontee said

See, now, if you're gonna limit the definition of "rock and roll" and what's to be ultimately eligible for a hall of fame honouring it, why not go all the way and limit it only to the dozen-or-so originators of the form? Elvis, Chuck Berry, Little Richard and a few others. Nobody who recorded after Buddy Holly's plane crash is eligible. A Jazz Hall of Fame that had such strict exclusionary limitations would have no place for Miles Davis either - it'd feature nothing but Dixieland!

Like it or not, rock evolved and split off into multiple other forms, including soul, heavy metal, R&B, folk-rock, rap, etc. As such, Jazz-fusion is a legitimate musical sub-genre, and there is arguably no representative figure more worthy of induction than Miles, not just for his own music but for the many eventual jazz-rocking bandleaders who came up through his bands.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

parlance

Beware of sadness. It can hit you. It can hurt you. Make you sore and what is more, that is not what you are here for. - George

Check out my fan video for Paul's song "Appreciate" at YouTube and Vimeo.

5 May 2013
6.51am
Ron Nasty
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Von Bontee said

See, now, if you're gonna limit the definition of "rock and roll" and what's to be ultimately eligible for a hall of fame honouring it, why not go all the way and limit it only to the dozen-or-so originators of the form? Elvis, Chuck Berry, Little Richard and a few others. Nobody who recorded after Buddy Holly's plane crash is eligible. A Jazz Hall of Fame that had such strict exclusionary limitations would have no place for Miles Davis either - it'd feature nothing but Dixieland!

Like it or not, rock evolved and split off into multiple other forms, including soul, heavy metal, R&B, folk-rock, rap, etc. As such, Jazz-fusion is a legitimate musical sub-genre, and there is arguably no representative figure more worthy of induction than Miles, not just for his own music but for the many eventual jazz-rocking bandleaders who came up through his bands.

All hail the mighty Von Bontee! Couldn't agree more. What the hell are "rock" groups and artists doing in a "rock and roll" hall of fame? I'd exclude 90% of the list on that basis, Funny Paper. Setting up the hall of fame, seems to me they used "rock and roll" as a generic term applying to the music aimed at the market that came into being with the birth of rock and roll, or as that period is often referred to, the birth of the teenager. Maybe they could have found a truer name for it, though I don't know what that would be since "popular music" is too wide. But the Hall has never limited itself to "rock and roll", otherwise someone like - for instance - Janis Joplin would not be there. A blues singer who worked against the backdrop of what would become known as "rock", how does she belong in a "rock and roll" hall of fame? Rap can be said to be a development of the "talking blues" of Woody Guthrie and Bob Dylan (both in the hall), combined with forms like reggae toasting, often used on Bob Marley (also in the hall) records. If someone is going to argue that the list should be frozen to the form in its title, then don't argue for anything that isn't strictly "rock and roll" - and that includes "rock".

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
5 May 2013
11.28am
meanmistermustard
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Ive got absolutely no idea who is or isnt in the RaRHoF as i dont pay any attention to it. I presume all the major artists and acts are in along with significant others in all types of relevant genres and generations.

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5 May 2013
6.53pm
Funny Paper
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Von Bontee said

Funny Paper said

If there were a Jazz Hall of Fame, I would exclude 75% of my favorite musicians and bands from being honored by it -- because they didn't do jazz, for fuck sake.

 

See, now, if you're gonna limit the definition of "rock and roll" and what's to be ultimately eligible for a hall of fame honouring it, why not go all the way and limit it only to the dozen-or-so originators of the form? Elvis, Chuck Berry, Little Richard and a few others. Nobody who recorded after Buddy Holly's plane crash is eligible. A Jazz Hall of Fame that had such strict exclusionary limitations would have no place for Miles Davis either - it'd feature nothing but Dixieland!

Like it or not, rock evolved and split off into multiple other forms, including soul, heavy metal, R&B, folk-rock, rap, etc. As such, Jazz-fusion is a legitimate musical sub-genre, and there is arguably no representative figure more worthy of induction than Miles, not just for his own music but for the many eventual jazz-rocking bandleaders who came up through his bands.

[Incidentally, thank you for introducing me to Crow, who I have legit never ever heard of until yesterday! And now I find that they even had a Top 20 single which I've likewise never heard; and that Black Sabbath even covered the song on the UK version of their debut! Can't believe I haven't encountered all this info until just now. Crazy...]

I never said I would over-limit the rock or the jazz category.  Why would anybody err on the opposite side?  It's not as if we are condemned to only think two extremes:

1) a category has to include practically everything

2) a category has to be so exclusive, it even excludes many things inside it!

There is a third option, where jazz would have a whole wealth of musicians and bands to include, but simply don't accept non-jazz people, like the Rolling Stones or Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young, or hip hop or rap, etc.  There would be borderline cases that should be discussed and agreed upon by the committee that makes up the "hall of fame".  For jazz, for example, the Chicago or the pop artist Michael Franks could at least be within the realm of discussion. And most of the "jazz fusion" cases you allude to would be included without any discussion needed.

One of my favorite bands is War (mostly later albums without Eric Burdon).  I would not include them in a Jazz Hall of Fame because they just never really did jazz, not even a fusion (though they did title an album "Platinum Jazz" -- there was no jazz on it!).  I would, however, feel they would be cheated if they were not included in a Latin Music Hall of Fame, because they did so much to incorporate the Los Angeles chicano Latino sound in many of their songs.

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...
6 May 2013
6.20pm
AppleScruffJunior
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I just found out today that Jeff Lynne/ELO are NOT in the RaRHoF :O whaaatt!!

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8 May 2013
9.16pm
Linde
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Half of the bands/artists I expect to be in the HoF probably aren't. WTF.

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