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Who do you think should be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame that isn't
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3 May 2013
9.01pm
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Holsety
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5 May 2013
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Von Bontee
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Funny Paper said

If there were a Jazz Hall of Fame, I would exclude 75% of my favorite musicians and bands from being honored by it -- because they didn't do jazz, for fuck sake.

 

See, now, if you're gonna limit the definition of "rock and roll" and what's to be ultimately eligible for a hall of fame honouring it, why not go all the way and limit it only to the dozen-or-so originators of the form? Elvis, Chuck Berry, Little Richard and a few others. Nobody who recorded after Buddy Holly's plane crash is eligible. A Jazz Hall of Fame that had such strict exclusionary limitations would have no place for Miles Davis either - it'd feature nothing but Dixieland!

Like it or not, rock evolved and split off into multiple other forms, including soul, heavy metal, R&B, folk-rock, rap, etc. As such, Jazz-fusion is a legitimate musical sub-genre, and there is arguably no representative figure more worthy of induction than Miles, not just for his own music but for the many eventual jazz-rocking bandleaders who came up through his bands.

[Incidentally, thank you for introducing me to Crow, who I have legit never ever heard of until yesterday! And now I find that they even had a Top 20 single which I've likewise never heard; and that Black Sabbath even covered the song on the UK version of their debut! Can't believe I haven't encountered all this info until just now. Crazy...]

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5 May 2013
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Ron Nasty
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Von Bontee said

See, now, if you're gonna limit the definition of "rock and roll" and what's to be ultimately eligible for a hall of fame honouring it, why not go all the way and limit it only to the dozen-or-so originators of the form? Elvis, Chuck Berry, Little Richard and a few others. Nobody who recorded after Buddy Holly's plane crash is eligible. A Jazz Hall of Fame that had such strict exclusionary limitations would have no place for Miles Davis either - it'd feature nothing but Dixieland!

Like it or not, rock evolved and split off into multiple other forms, including soul, heavy metal, R&B, folk-rock, rap, etc. As such, Jazz-fusion is a legitimate musical sub-genre, and there is arguably no representative figure more worthy of induction than Miles, not just for his own music but for the many eventual jazz-rocking bandleaders who came up through his bands.

All hail the mighty Von Bontee! Couldn't agree more. What the hell are "rock" groups and artists doing in a "rock and roll" hall of fame? I'd exclude 90% of the list on that basis, Funny Paper. Setting up the hall of fame, seems to me they used "rock and roll" as a generic term applying to the music aimed at the market that came into being with the birth of rock and roll, or as that period is often referred to, the birth of the teenager. Maybe they could have found a truer name for it, though I don't know what that would be since "popular music" is too wide. But the Hall has never limited itself to "rock and roll", otherwise someone like - for instance - Janis Joplin would not be there. A blues singer who worked against the backdrop of what would become known as "rock", how does she belong in a "rock and roll" hall of fame? Rap can be said to be a development of the "talking blues" of Woody Guthrie and Bob Dylan (both in the hall), combined with forms like reggae toasting, often used on Bob Marley (also in the hall) records. If someone is going to argue that the list should be frozen to the form in its title, then don't argue for anything that isn't strictly "rock and roll" - and that includes "rock".

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty

5 May 2013
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Funny Paper
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Von Bontee said

Funny Paper said

If there were a Jazz Hall of Fame, I would exclude 75% of my favorite musicians and bands from being honored by it -- because they didn't do jazz, for fuck sake.

 

See, now, if you're gonna limit the definition of "rock and roll" and what's to be ultimately eligible for a hall of fame honouring it, why not go all the way and limit it only to the dozen-or-so originators of the form? Elvis, Chuck Berry, Little Richard and a few others. Nobody who recorded after Buddy Holly's plane crash is eligible. A Jazz Hall of Fame that had such strict exclusionary limitations would have no place for Miles Davis either - it'd feature nothing but Dixieland!

Like it or not, rock evolved and split off into multiple other forms, including soul, heavy metal, R&B, folk-rock, rap, etc. As such, Jazz-fusion is a legitimate musical sub-genre, and there is arguably no representative figure more worthy of induction than Miles, not just for his own music but for the many eventual jazz-rocking bandleaders who came up through his bands.

[Incidentally, thank you for introducing me to Crow, who I have legit never ever heard of until yesterday! And now I find that they even had a Top 20 single which I've likewise never heard; and that Black Sabbath even covered the song on the UK version of their debut! Can't believe I haven't encountered all this info until just now. Crazy...]

I never said I would over-limit the rock or the jazz category.  Why would anybody err on the opposite side?  It's not as if we are condemned to only think two extremes:

1) a category has to include practically everything

2) a category has to be so exclusive, it even excludes many things inside it!

There is a third option, where jazz would have a whole wealth of musicians and bands to include, but simply don't accept non-jazz people, like the Rolling Stones or Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young, or hip hop or rap, etc.  There would be borderline cases that should be discussed and agreed upon by the committee that makes up the "hall of fame".  For jazz, for example, the Chicago or the pop artist Michael Franks could at least be within the realm of discussion. And most of the "jazz fusion" cases you allude to would be included without any discussion needed.

One of my favorite bands is War (mostly later albums without Eric Burdon).  I would not include them in a Jazz Hall of Fame because they just never really did jazz, not even a fusion (though they did title an album "Platinum Jazz" -- there was no jazz on it!).  I would, however, feel they would be cheated if they were not included in a Latin Music Hall of Fame, because they did so much to incorporate the Los Angeles chicano Latino sound in many of their songs.

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