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I read the news today (oh boy) - Current world events
14 March 2014
12.56am
meanmistermustard
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Searchers are now expanding their area of attention to cover the Indian Ocean region, tho despite the new information its "not concrete enough to merit a rise in expectations". 

Its quite remarkable that a very big plane carrying 239 people on board can just vanish and no one has a clue where it has gone despite all the high tech equipment available. Its like when you go out and lose your keys somewhere - you know you had them when you left but they could be anywhere on the way there, in town, or somewhere on the traipse back - tho obviously on a much more grand and serious level. 

Must be horrible being a friend or family to those on board not knowing what happened.

 

Don’t make your love suffer insecurities, trade the baggage of self to set another one free. ('Paper Skin' - Kendall Payne)
14 March 2014
8.58am
Ron Nasty
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Very much something for those in the UK, but one of the political giants of second half of 20th Century, Tony Benn, passed away overnight, at the age of 88.

A true conviction politician, he was one of the last of a dying breed. With Tony Benn you had a man whose principles never wavered however much they went out of fashion with the mainstream. Politically he made most sense to me when I was in my teens, early-20s, and growing up in a world of Thatcher and Reagan. Politics mattered then, and were important to the young (in a way they do not seem to be now), and Benn's voice was huge to a young impressionable man who leant to the left.

As I grew older I realised it was more nuanced than he sometimes made it sound, and more compromise was needed than he was ever happy with. I drifted from the certainty he once gave me, and disagreed with his stance more and more as I grew to understand the world was more complicated than he made it seem, but I always had the greatest respect for him.

I was lucky enough to meet him many times over the years - the first time in 1984, the last 3 or 4 years ago. He was a remarkable man and the world could do with more like him.

My favourite line of his? When he stood down as an MP in 2001, he said he was, "leaving parliament in order to spend more time on politics". Maybe he was right, maybe parliaments and governments have become less about people's beliefs and more about people's ambitions.

A sad day.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
16 March 2014
1.06pm
fabfouremily
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http://banbossy.com/ A campaign to ban the word 'bossy', as apparently the word makes young girls' self-esteem plummet, is spreading across the internet. What nonsense! It's people's attitudes that need to change - stopping people from using a particular word will do nothing. How demeaning of people to think that our confidence and/or success has anything to do with us being called bossy if we stand up for what we believe in. I actually laughed when I first read about this, I thought it was a joke. It seems there are people who are actually taking this seriously.

''We're just knocked out. We heard about the sell out. You gotta get an album out, you owe it to the people. We're so happy we can hardly count.''

16 March 2014
4.26pm
parlance
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fabfouremily said
http://banbossy.com/ A campaign to ban the word 'bossy', as apparently the word makes young girls' self-esteem plummet, is spreading across the internet. What nonsense! It's people's attitudes that need to change - stopping people from using a particular word will do nothing. How demeaning of people to think that our confidence and/or success has anything to do with us being called bossy if we stand up for what we believe in. I actually laughed when I first read about this, I thought it was a joke. It seems there are people who are actually taking this seriously.

Just took a look at the site. It's not just about a word, but part of a larger movement to encourage leadership in girls. Not nonsense at all.

parlance

 

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16 March 2014
4.36pm
IveJustSeenAFaceo
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I disagree with about half their points. At my school, girls tend to get called on more, actually. Also, I can't think of a time that a girl was called "bossy" seriously. Might just be my school, and I know that's a small sample size, but most of these things don't appear to be happening. The campaign against the word itself strikes me as nonsense.

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16 March 2014
4.41pm
parlance
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IveJustSeenAFaceo said
I disagree with about half their points. At my school, girls tend to get called on more, actually. Also, I can't think of a time that a girl was called "bossy" seriously. Might just be my school, and I know that's a small sample size, but most of these things don't appear to be happening. The campaign against the word itself strikes me as nonsense.

Anyone can find anecdotal exceptions to every study, but that doesn't invalidate a trend. I did a paper on this very subject in college, and from what I've read, overall the situation has changed very little.

parlance

 

Beware of sadness. It can hit you. It can hurt you. Make you sore and what is more, that is not what you are here for. - George

Check out my fan video for Paul's song "Appreciate" at YouTube and Vimeo.

16 March 2014
7.00pm
fabfouremily
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What's nonsense is trying to ban a word in the hope that it'll either raise awareness and/or aid women in achieving their goals. Maybe they also think that this'll even out some of the differences which still exist between men and women. I have absolutely nothing against their aim, in fact I'm very much for it (how could I not be?), but I think they're going the wrong way about it. How else are we going to get what we want (and deserve) if we don't stand up for ourselves, even if that means being "bossy". 

People call me bossy sometimes, but I can't say it really affects my self-esteem. What does, though, is trying to balance looking "like I should", doing well at school (as I do want to have a career just as much as any boy/man might), at the same time as not coming accross as some mad "bossy" feminist. I just think they're focusing on this particular thing so much that they're not seeing the bigger picture. 

''We're just knocked out. We heard about the sell out. You gotta get an album out, you owe it to the people. We're so happy we can hardly count.''

16 March 2014
7.11pm
parlance
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fabfouremily said
What's nonsense is trying to ban a word in the hope that it'll either raise awareness and/or aid women in achieving their goals.

I see it less about enacting as a ban (because I don't think that's even tenable) than highlighting the idea that language has a greater impact than we generally think it does. Since it's sponsored by the Girl Scouts, they have to keep it kid-friendly, but it has an adult-world corollary in the mostly-gendered application of "bitchy" to women who assert themselves.

Also, I think the hashtag is a shorthand marketing angle. It's kind of worked. There've been so many initiatives like this, and this is one of the first I've seen get much media attention (when you posted, I realized that the morning show I listen to had brought this up on Friday).

I just think they're focusing on this particular thing so much that they're not seeing the bigger picture. 

But again, if you visit the site, they are linking the word to the bigger picture.

parlance

Beware of sadness. It can hit you. It can hurt you. Make you sore and what is more, that is not what you are here for. - George

Check out my fan video for Paul's song "Appreciate" at YouTube and Vimeo.

16 March 2014
7.43pm
meanmistermustard
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The concept is good, a very worthy effort, but the plan of attack is flawed. I agree that its right to encourage everyone as they grow up and not hinder their development but to have the campaign based around and promoted on the idea of banning the word bossy will just result in people turning off before the message gets a chance of getting across.

 

Don’t make your love suffer insecurities, trade the baggage of self to set another one free. ('Paper Skin' - Kendall Payne)
16 March 2014
7.59pm
fabfouremily
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I did look at the site, parlance, and I like what they're doing. Any kind of awareness they're trying to drum up can surely only be a positive thing, but what they're claiming is that young girls don't feel ''encouraged to lead'' that much. As someone who is surrounded by both girls and boys in an enviroment where you do have to lead or stand up for yourself in order to do well, I don't see it. I don't see girls taking a back seat while the boys ''lead''. In fact, quite the opposite. Perhaps this is more of a problem where you are?

There is still a problem here. Women being degraded, in whatever way. I know, I've experienced it. You probably have at some point in your life, too. But what I still think needs to change is individual attitudes. Most females, if not all, I know don't need to be told that they can lead just as much as the other sex can. Leadership isn't defined by your gender, but by your personality. If you're the kind of person to stay back, who'd rather be told what to do than tell other's, then that's how you're going to be regardless.

''We're just knocked out. We heard about the sell out. You gotta get an album out, you owe it to the people. We're so happy we can hardly count.''

16 March 2014
8.01pm
parlance
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meanmistermustard said
The concept is good, a very worthy effort, but the plan of attack is flawed. I agree that its right to encourage everyone as they grow up and not hinder their development but to have the campaign based around and promoted on the idea of banning the word bossy will just result in people turning off before the message gets a chance of getting across.

 

I don't want to make assumptions about what people are and aren't reading before coming in the conversation, but are you actually reading the site first? I just find it baffling that one can say the plan of attack is limited or flawed if you've done so.

Edit: Emily, you were posting at the same time. I'll respond more in depth when I can.

parlance

Beware of sadness. It can hit you. It can hurt you. Make you sore and what is more, that is not what you are here for. - George

Check out my fan video for Paul's song "Appreciate" at YouTube and Vimeo.

16 March 2014
8.05pm
fabfouremily
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As I said, yes. If some people out there believe there is a problem with girls not knowing how to lead, or maybe instinctively not leading for whatever reason, then I see no problem in trying to change that. But what I'm saying is that I don't see any problem here. Or not really enough of one to create a campaign for it anyway, not when there are so many other issues surrounding women that aren't really being tackled.

EDIT: Only just saw your edit.

''We're just knocked out. We heard about the sell out. You gotta get an album out, you owe it to the people. We're so happy we can hardly count.''

16 March 2014
8.26pm
meanmistermustard
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My point is that before you even get to the site to look at it you are faced with the idea of banning the word bossy regardless of what is behind the actual motives, intentions etc. That is going to put people off before they even look at it. First impressions and all that.

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IveJustSeenAFaceo
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16 March 2014
8.35pm
fabfouremily
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Yeah, I agree. All I read at first was a comment that they were trying to ban a word, which made me laugh as it seemed a pointless thing to attempt. It's only when I read further that I found out what they're tring to do is actually more achievable (and worthwhile). I still think there are bigger things to focus on, though.

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''We're just knocked out. We heard about the sell out. You gotta get an album out, you owe it to the people. We're so happy we can hardly count.''

16 March 2014
9.58pm
IveJustSeenAFaceo
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meanmistermustard said
My point is that before you even get to the site to look at it you are faced with the idea of banning the word bossy regardless of what is behind the actual motives, intentions etc. That is going to put people off before they even look at it. First impressions and all that.

Agreed. Someone will just say "They're trying to ban a word? Idiots"

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17 March 2014
3.42am
parlance
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fabfouremily said

As someone who is surrounded by both girls and boys in an enviroment where you do have to lead or stand up for yourself in order to do well, I don't see it. I don't see girls taking a back seat while the boys ''lead''. In fact, quite the opposite. Perhaps this is more of a problem where you are?

That's great if you don't feel you've been discouraged from leading, but that doesn't mean it's not an overall problem or, as I said above, that a few individual instances are consistent with the trend. Perhaps it is more of a problem in the US. But also class and race are factors, and maybe where you're being schooled, the inequalities are less pronounced than where I went to school. I don't know your background, but there's a possibility that what you're seeing doesn't reflect the status of girls in general across your country.

When I did the paper, I found that girls are initial encouraged to participate because that's consistent with being "good" students. This changes after 4th grade, when thinking independently and speaking up (sometimes even out of turn) becomes valued in the classroom. Girls are - generally speaking - often either ignored or chastised for speaking out of turn, whereas boys are often encouraged. This holds especially true in math and science (and, btw, a quick Google search indicated this is an issue in the UK as well).

Getting back to the specific issue at hand, initiatives like the one from The Girl Scouts recognize the need to break the cycle early in girls' lives by starting the conversation about the unconscious ways adults discourage them from becoming leaders. And I think to discount this initiative on the basis of a hashtag is to not see the big picture.

But what I still think needs to change is individual attitudes.

I'm not sure what you mean here - to me, that's exactly what this program is trying to do. Or are you saying that girls need to change their attitudes about themselves? If so, that's a lot of responsibility to place on a small child.

But what I still think needs to change is individual attitudes. Most females, if not all, I know don't need to be told that they can lead just as much as the other sex can. Leadership isn't defined by your gender, but by your personality. If you're the kind of person to stay back, who'd rather be told what to do than tell other's, then that's how you're going to be regardless.

Not so. Children need guidance, mentors or role models - be it parents or other family members, guardians, teachers, neighbors. The idea of born leaders to a certain extent is a myth. Leadership skills can be cultivated.

But what I'm saying is that I don't see any problem here. Or not really enough of one to create a campaign for it anyway, not when there are so many other issues surrounding women that aren't really being tackled.

There's no single approach to tackling inequality. Working on one issue doesn't keep anyone from working on others.

parlance

Beware of sadness. It can hit you. It can hurt you. Make you sore and what is more, that is not what you are here for. - George

Check out my fan video for Paul's song "Appreciate" at YouTube and Vimeo.

17 March 2014
7.19am
fabfouremily
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I'll have to answer more in depth later, but my basic point is that there's not much use women feeling empowered if they're not getting a top job, for example, because the manager would rather have a male doing the job. This doesn't sound possible in the 21st century, but this is the reality. Few people seem to be trying to deal with this.

I don't see many girls not leading (no more than there are boys not, as I said, there are people of both genders who prefer not to), but you're right, maybe it is something to do with the enviroment I'm in. Having said that, I do know girls from many different kinds of backgrounds, and I've never heard that there is such a big problem, affecting so many people, here.

''We're just knocked out. We heard about the sell out. You gotta get an album out, you owe it to the people. We're so happy we can hardly count.''

17 March 2014
2.20pm
fabfouremily
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Actually, I don't have much more to add. I don't knock what they're trying to achieve. Few girls/women are going to see someone ''fighting their corner'' as a bad thing, but there are so many areas that need to be tackled, and female empowerment in this respect is not one that I feel needs it most. Having said that, I'll accept that I may simply be in the minority here. After speaking to some girls in my year and the year above me today, the message I got is that what knocks their (and my) confidence/self-esteem is more to do with the way we look. Perhaps it's just schools in my area (and I'm talking comprehensive, grammar and private) where girls do feel like they can lead. It's just not a big issue here, it seems. Maybe it is more of one in other parts of the UK. That I don't know.

The area we need to focus on, I feel, is on people's opinion of women and their capabilities. If you have two candidates for a job, one male and one female, and the female is better qualified and has more experience, the right thing to do is hire the female (as long as there isn't another fair reason why she shouldn't get it). And, of course, she should earn the same as a man doing the same job. Here there is a big problem. A problem we seem to be doing absolutely nothing about. This is affecting people I know, and so many I don't. And what are we doing about it? Once you get more women at the top, and there's more people for girls to aspire to be like, we'll probably find any problems they're experiencing with leadership will be vastly minimized.

From the website:

When a little boy asserts himself, he's called a “leader.” Yet when a little girl does the same, she risks being branded “bossy.” Words like bossy send a message: don't raise your hand or speak up.

It seems to me that they're claiming the word 'bossy' affects girls confidence, but not boys? Surely if it affects one it affects the other, too. This is part of my inicial doubt in the campaign.

Between elementary and high school, girls’ self–esteem drops 3.5 times more than boys’.

This is where I see a big problem, and they clearly do as well - but I don't see a relation between this and leadership.

At the end of all of this, I see what they're trying to do, and support it, but I still think they're approaching it from the wrong angle. Then again, if it does get people to think about issues we have, then it can't be a bad thing, either.

 

''We're just knocked out. We heard about the sell out. You gotta get an album out, you owe it to the people. We're so happy we can hardly count.''

17 March 2014
2.38pm
parlance
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I get your points, but again, I see it was one approach among many. I just don't see why working on other issues that affect girls and women precludes them from working on this as well.

parlance

Beware of sadness. It can hit you. It can hurt you. Make you sore and what is more, that is not what you are here for. - George

Check out my fan video for Paul's song "Appreciate" at YouTube and Vimeo.

17 March 2014
2.46pm
fabfouremily
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Oh yeah, you're right. Absolutely no reason why we can't deal with it all at once at all.

I guess this must affect people in other parts of the world much more, because I never even realised there was much of a problem with girls ''not leading'' in this way until I heard about this. Obviously I'm well aware of women leading, or not, in other ways. Like I mentioned, this just doesn't seem to be such a problem in the schools that I know of. I suppose I should count myself lucky.

 

''We're just knocked out. We heard about the sell out. You gotta get an album out, you owe it to the people. We're so happy we can hardly count.''

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