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The US Albums
27 January 2014
12.19pm
Ron Nasty
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Oyster Black Pearl said

mja6758 said
Oyster Black Pearl, the stereo versions of I'm Only Sleeping and Doctor Robert may have been duophonic on the initial release, and replaced the duophonic on later versions – however, they were George Martin stereo mixes prepared on 20 May 1966. Both were stereo remix one, whereas Revolver used stereo remix two in each case (all done on the same day).

Points taken, but they weren't released on Y&T until the 70's, not 1966? Don't get me wrong, I want those mixes too, preferably on Vol 3 [which ain't gonna happen?].

I don't think Apple have been lazy, far from it – they've presented what they believe to be the "best" upgrades in sound quality, they never liked the way Capitol presented their material and have taken the chance to "correct" this. I'm sure this edict has come right from the top. Don't think I'm an Apple apologist, Vol 3 would have been the way to go, but I'm enjoying the new box as it is. 

The RS1 mixes were created to match the mono mixes that GM had prepared for the US on 12 May 1966. So, again, I am sorry, but there is no excuse for using the Revolver stereo mixes. Apple cannot make the argument that they did not have a proper stereo version of the US mix available to them. That is my point about laziness. The UK archive has the stereo mixes made to match the mono mixes by George Martin within a few days of each other. Whenever Capitol actually got around to using the proper stereo mixes of their mono mixes, there cannot be an argument that Apple did not have access to a good quality master of its stereo equivalent, and that they could not have remastered them for this set. They can argue that they had to replace some things because the US masters were 2nd generation and sounded dodgy, but they cannot argue that first generation masters that they hold had to be replaced by other first generation masters they hold (but had already been remastered). That is laziness.

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27 January 2014
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mja6758 said
I'm sorry, but I just don't believe The US Albums are what they say on the label. It's easy to say that replacing the original tapes/some mixes with the EMI remasters makes for improved listening so far as sound quality goes, but it cannot escape the fact that they are now reinterpretations of the Capitol albums – not the Capitol albums.

Had Apple been prepared to spend the time and money, I'm sure they could have remastered the original US masters for those albums that were an upgrade on previous quality in boxes 1 & 2, and not disappointed. In truth, what they are flogging is, bar some exceptions, a playlist that many of us could put together without spending the money (and those of us with good bootleg collections [Purple Chick, Dr. E] could duplicate with ease.

Oyster Black Pearl, the stereo versions of I'm Only Sleeping and Doctor Robert may have been duophonic on the initial release, and replaced the duophonic on later versions – however, they were George Martin stereo mixes prepared on 20 May 1966. Both were stereo remix one, whereas Revolver used stereo remix two in each case (all done on the same day).

If Yesterday and Today does include stereo remix two instead of stereo remix one in the case of those two tracks, then that is disgraceful! An example of Apple's laziness, as mmm would say. The US stereo mixes of both tracks have their original masters in the UK tapes, as that is where they were created. If RS1 has been replaced with RS2 in both cases, as you suggest, that just says they couldn't be bothered to pull the original masters and remaster them for this release.

When Capitol first released the RS1s doesn't really matter, it matters when, and by who, they were prepared – and that was GM in 1966. That for some reason Capitol decided to use duophonic mixes created from the mono for a time, and then switched to using the proper GM RS1 mixes, doesn't forgive them using the remastered RS2 if they have, as they could have remastered RS1 for this release as easily as they remastered RS2 for the 2009 release.

If they had used RS1 for this release, then by your own logic it would no longer be "what it says on the label."  If Capitol didn't use it for the original, then it is not the authentic Capitol version.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death." --John Lennon

27 January 2014
3.01pm
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I think the point mja was making was that if you are going to go with the best versions listenability-wise, which means swapping crappy duophonic for true stereo, then swap it for the true stereo of the same mix not a different one – which I would agree with.

"Well, probably we'll sell less records, less people'll go to see the film, we'll write less songs, and we'll all die of failure" (John Lennon 8/64)
27 January 2014
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Ron Nasty
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Expert Textpert said 

If they had used RS1 for this release, then by your own logic it would no longer be "what it says on the label."  If Capitol didn't use it for the original, then it is not the authentic Capitol version.

It would not be the duophonic, true, but it would be the correct stereo mix to match the mono mix from which the duophonic was created. Therefore, the RS1s that were created by GM for Yesterday and Today but unused by Capitol until later editions (and they were used on editions of Yesterday and Today), would be more in keeping than using the Revolver stereo mixes. I don't see this as so difficult. I accept some replacement. I'm just saying that if you have US GM stereo mixes made to match the US GM mono mixes, why give us the UK stereo mixes that differ from the US mono mixes.

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27 January 2014
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mja6758 said

Expert Textpert said 

If they had used RS1 for this release, then by your own logic it would no longer be "what it says on the label."  If Capitol didn't use it for the original, then it is not the authentic Capitol version.

It would not be the duophonic, true, but it would be the correct stereo mix to match the mono mix from which the duophonic was created. Therefore, the RS1s that were created by GM for Yesterday and Today but unused by Capitol until later editions (and they were used on editions of Yesterday and Today), would be more in keeping than using the Revolver stereo mixes. I don't see this as so difficult. I accept some replacement. I'm just saying that if you have US GM stereo mixes made to match the US GM mono mixes, why give us the UK stereo mixes that differ from the US mono mixes.

 

I think the reason is probably that they made the decision to use the 2009 masters as replacements for all fake stereo.  Does it bother critics of the US Albums that the 2009 stereo box sets are not authentic and original in that they use GM's 1987 remixes in certain places?

"This Beatles talk bores me to death." --John Lennon

27 January 2014
3.30pm
Ron Nasty
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Expert Textpert said

mja6758 said

Expert Textpert said 

If they had used RS1 for this release, then by your own logic it would no longer be "what it says on the label."  If Capitol didn't use it for the original, then it is not the authentic Capitol version.

It would not be the duophonic, true, but it would be the correct stereo mix to match the mono mix from which the duophonic was created. Therefore, the RS1s that were created by GM for Yesterday and Today but unused by Capitol until later editions (and they were used on editions of Yesterday and Today), would be more in keeping than using the Revolver stereo mixes. I don't see this as so difficult. I accept some replacement. I'm just saying that if you have US GM stereo mixes made to match the US GM mono mixes, why give us the UK stereo mixes that differ from the US mono mixes.

 

I think the reason is probably that they made the decision to use the 2009 masters as replacements for all fake stereo.  Does it bother critics of the US Albums that the 2009 stereo box sets are not authentic and original in that they use GM's 1987 remixes in certain places?

One of the joys for me about the remastered mono box set is that it included remastered original stereo versions of Helpand Rubber Soul. So, in answer to that question – yes, it bothered me, but they corrected it with the mono box. It seems to me, unless there is a Capitol Volume 3, the true US stereo mixes of Doctor Robert and I'm Only Sleeping will not be remastered and released.

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27 January 2014
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mja6758 said

Expert Textpert said

mja6758 said

Expert Textpert said 

If they had used RS1 for this release, then by your own logic it would no longer be "what it says on the label."  If Capitol didn't use it for the original, then it is not the authentic Capitol version.

It would not be the duophonic, true, but it would be the correct stereo mix to match the mono mix from which the duophonic was created. Therefore, the RS1s that were created by GM for Yesterday and Today but unused by Capitol until later editions (and they were used on editions of Yesterday and Today), would be more in keeping than using the Revolver stereo mixes. I don't see this as so difficult. I accept some replacement. I'm just saying that if you have US GM stereo mixes made to match the US GM mono mixes, why give us the UK stereo mixes that differ from the US mono mixes.

 

I think the reason is probably that they made the decision to use the 2009 masters as replacements for all fake stereo.  Does it bother critics of the US Albums that the 2009 stereo box sets are not authentic and original in that they use GM's 1987 remixes in certain places?

One of the joys for me about the remastered mono box set is that it included remastered original stereo versions of Helpand Rubber Soul. So, in answer to that question – yes, it bothered me, but they corrected it with the mono box. It seems to me, unless there is a Capitol Volume 3, the true US stereo mixes of Doctor Robert and I'm Only Sleeping will not be remastered and released.

 

As far as I know, Yesterday and Today is available on CD (just not an authorized Apple release), so all you need to do is buy that one.  Much less expensive than buying a whole mono box just to get the correct Help and Rubber Soul mixes.

 

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27 January 2014
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Re the 1987 stereo mixes being in the stereo box (they have basically replaced the original mixes with them as you get the '87 mixes on the individual Help! and Rubber Soul cds as well), it did, and still does annoy a lot of hardcore fans Apple doing the switch and replacing what the Beatles put out in the '60's. Why Apple put them in the mono box mystifies me, why not put them in the stereo box as a bonus.

I actually prefer the '65 mixes over the '87 remixes and they are my go to for those stereo albums.

"Well, probably we'll sell less records, less people'll go to see the film, we'll write less songs, and we'll all die of failure" (John Lennon 8/64)
27 January 2014
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Fair enough…but the Y & T stereo mixes were not on the original release, so whether they use the original "Capitol" stereo mix they didn't use in the first place or the 2009 doesn't matter to me in terms of historical authenticity.

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27 January 2014
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I bought the mono box to get the mono mixes as in most cases those are the correct mixes, that it included the 1965 stereo Help! and Rubber Soul mixes was a nice bonus. And they were included, and remastered, because there had been complaints from "critics" about the 1986 remixes since they were released in 1987.

I have very nice versions of both the tracks I'm questioning, but there are not, and cannot be, remastered from the original tape.

Again, I make the same point, as I have made all along – there are differences, some major, between the US and UK mixes of these two tracks, and when they were all made by George Martin within days of each other, I do not understand why you remaster George's US mono mixes and not his US stereo mixes, and replace those with his UK stereo mixes. We're not talking Dexter mixes here, we are talking GM. And if Apple didn't think this would be cause for complaint, then they didn't learn the lesson from the complaints about GM's 1987 stereo remixes of Helpand Rubber Soul (which, tbh, I would rather be the ones on the mono box set, and the originals on the stereo box).

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27 January 2014
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Apple do as Apple want; most of the time baffling and pissing off the fans who still buy the stuff as they love the Beatles and want to hear the music, watch the films etc. 

But lets not go down that route, i've made clear my feelings on Apple, I doubt folks want another headache reading it.

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27 January 2014
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meanmistermustard said
Apple do as Apple want; most of the time baffling and pissing off the fans who still buy the stuff as they love the Beatles and want to hear the music, watch the films etc. 

But lets not go down that route, i've made clear my feelings on Apple, I doubt folks want another headache reading it.

i like reading your Apple rants though. a-hard-days-night-ringo-5

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27 January 2014
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mja6758 said
I bought the mono box to get the mono mixes as in most cases those are the correct mixes, that it included the 1965 stereo Help! and Rubber Soul mixes was a nice bonus. And they were included, and remastered, because there had been complaints from "critics" about the 1986 remixes since they were released in 1987.

I have very nice versions of both the tracks I'm questioning, but there are not, and cannot be, remastered from the original tape.

Again, I make the same point, as I have made all along – there are differences, some major, between the US and UK mixes of these two tracks, and when they were all made by George Martin within days of each other, I do not understand why you remaster George's US mono mixes and not his US stereo mixes, and replace those with his UK stereo mixes. We're not talking Dexter mixes here, we are talking GM. And if Apple didn't think this would be cause for complaint, then they didn't learn the lesson from the complaints about GM's 1987 stereo remixes of Helpand Rubber Soul (which, tbh, I would rather be the ones on the mono box set, and the originals on the stereo box).

I see your point, but they probably looked at the original tracks and said "The first pressings were duophonic…let's replace with the 2009, since it was our decision to replace duophonic with 2009 across the board."

At least the mono mixes are correct.  I think it's a very slight issue, not something to be that upset about in my opinion.

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27 January 2014
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a-hard-days-night-ringo-8

It depends on what you want the US Box to be. If you want it to be actually what you grew up with and/or what was put out in the US by Capitol then it is a big deal as Apple are being seen as changing the mixes of some of the songs and so revising the past and robbing folks of that. For those who just want the best sounding versions and/or fill in spaces in their collection then it will be worthwhile. 

To be honest Apple were never going to win with this whatever they did. Keep the fake mixes and the echo drenched Dextorisations and some fans would have slated them for keeping them yet they are changed and Apple get slated for revisionism. For years the same fans who are now bitching about the changing of the mixes bitched about the mixes being on the original albums calling them all kinds of names, "shit" being the most commonly used.

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27 January 2014
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meanmistermustard said
a-hard-days-night-ringo-8

It depends on what you want the US Box to be. If you want it to be actually what you grew up with and/or what was put out in the US by Capitol then it is a big deal as Apple are being seen as changing the mixes of some of the songs and so revising the past and robbing folks of that. For those who just want the best sounding versions and/or fill in spaces in their collection then it will be worthwhile. 

To be honest Apple were never going to win with this whatever they did. Keep the fake mixes and the echo drenched Dextorisations and some fans would have slated them for keeping them yet they are changed and Apple get slated for revisionism. For years the same fans who are now bitching about the changing of the mixes bitched about the mixes being on the original albums calling them all kinds of names, "shit" being the most commonly used.

True…personally I don't care about the original albums being kept exactly the way they were because I didn't grow up with them.  What matters to me is that they sound better….and comparing the Capitol sets with the new box, there is no contest:  The Capitol albums generally sounds worse.

I was just doing some reading and found this:

http://www.thebeatlesrarity.co…..her-cover/

5) “I’m Only Sleeping,” “Doctor Robert,” “And Your Bird Can Sing”: three Lennon compositions from the upcoming UK LP Revolver. Since Capitol was pressuring EMI in the U.K. for three tracks to fill up the album, the mono version of the album contained mixes that were not yet finalized. Capitol then used these same mixes to create duophonic (i.e. ‘fake’ stereo) mixes for the stereo edition of the album.

For the reason stated in 5) above, the mixes of “And Your Bird Can Sing,” “Doctor Robert” and “I’m Only Sleeping” differ significantly between Yesterday And Today and the U.K. Revolver LP, where they had time to have been perfected.

Some Capitol Record Club pressings and later (seventies and beyond) pressings of Yesterday And Today contain the better stereo mixes that appear on the U.K. Revolver album.


So, it looks to me as if the unique mixes on Y&T were imperfect, unfinished mixes that were never supposed to be released.  If what is stated above is true, then only the mono mix (which appears on the US Albums box) is authentic, because the mono mix was used to create the "fake stereo" version that people are complaining about being missing.

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27 January 2014
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And this is Mark Lewisohn discussing the 20 May 1966 stereo mixing session in Complete Recording Sessions:

"But still the mixes were not always identical, Capitol Records receiving remix one of both 'Doctor Robert' and 'I'm Only Sleeping' whereas remixes two of both songs were favoured for the UK. The two mixes of 'And Your Bird Can Sing' were the same."

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27 January 2014
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There is a true stereo mix of I'm Only Sleeping and it was apparently used on some editions of the '66 Yesterday and Today (see the emboldened section of text below). So its not as clear cut as generally reported since RS1 of I'm Only Sleeping (the example taken) was issued on some formats of Yesterday and Today back in June 1966.

 

Taken from the uploaders descriptor of the above video

The Beatles – "I'm Only Sleeping" (Stereo Remix 1)
From the U.S. LP "Yesterday…and Today" 1978 purple label pressing. ("MFD…" in perimiter print of label). Now this one is going to take some explaining… This particular true stereo mix was created on May 20, 1966 at Abbey Road Studios (studio one control room) between 11:00am and 12:30pm along with two other songs "Doctor Robert" and "And Your Bird Can Sing." This particular mixing session was to create stereo mixes for both the U.S. LP "Yesterday…and Today" and the British "Revolver" LP, with George Martin producing, Geoff Emerick and Phil McDonald serving as Engineers. 

Since the job involved working from the original four-track tape Martin decided that the British stereo remix may as well be done at the same time as the U.S. stereo remix. But still the mix was not always identical, Capitol Records receiving remix one of "I'm Only Sleeping" whereas remix two was favored for the UK. The backwards guitar is still only slightly different on this mix in comparison to the stereo mix which appears on the UK "Revolver" LP. 

As for the album, this true stereo mix was used for the reel-to-reel, 4-track, 8-track and cassette versions of the album, but was not pressed to vinyl until Capitol prepared masters for the Longines Record Club pressings of the album in 1969 (up to this point, all vinyl LPs for this release were pressed with duophonic versions of "I'm Only Sleeping," "Doctor Robert" and "And Your Bird Can Sing"). As Capitol masters for "Yesterday…and Today" began to wear down from repeated use, they were eventually replaced with new masters featuring the true stereo mixes. Apparently, new masters were specifically created for use by Capitol's new factory in Winchester, Virginia, as most of the Winchester pressings have the true stereo mixes of all three songs. It also appears that the replacement of metal parts was done on an "as needed" basis rather than a total recall. Thus, some later issues of the album were pressed with metal parts generated by the old masters on one side and with metal parts generated by new masters on the other side. This results in albums that have true stereo mixes of the side one songs "I'm Only Sleeping" and "Doctor Robert" paired with a duophonic version of "And Your Bird Can Sing" on side two. Other albums have duophonic versions of "I'm Only Sleeping" and "Doctor Robert" paired with a true stereo mix of "And Your Bird Can Sing."

Research information take from Bruce Spizer's book, The Beatles' Story On Capitol Records, Part 2: The Albums and Mark Lewisohn's book, The Beatles Recording Sessions: The Official Abbey Road Studio Notes 1962-1970.

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27 January 2014
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So, to be true and authentic to the original release, they need to put out a remastered version of the true stereo mixes on new limited edition reel-to-reel, 4-track, 8-track and cassette editions.

Or, they could do a special "Longines Edition" remaster.

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27 January 2014
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Expert Textpert said
So, to be true and authentic to the original release, they need to put out a remastered version of the true stereo mixes on new limited edition reel-to-reel, 4-track, 8-track and cassette editions.

Or, they could do a special "Longines Edition" remaster.

Don't let Apple hear that, they very well might do. And yet still balls it up, probably by "accidentally" including Paul's 1984 recording of Yesterday instead of The Beatles original. Purely by mistake of course and nothing to do with selling more by having fans rush out and buy the thing as a collectible.

 

How about Apple just round up all the unique US mixes, shove them on an album on itunes and flog it for $9.99.

"Well, probably we'll sell less records, less people'll go to see the film, we'll write less songs, and we'll all die of failure" (John Lennon 8/64)
27 January 2014
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meanmistermustard said

Expert Textpert said
So, to be true and authentic to the original release, they need to put out a remastered version of the true stereo mixes on new limited edition reel-to-reel, 4-track, 8-track and cassette editions.

Or, they could do a special "Longines Edition" remaster.

Don't let Apple hear that, they very well might do. And yet still balls it up, probably by "accidentally" including Paul's 1984 recording of Yesterday instead of The Beatles original. Purely by mistake of course and nothing to do with selling more by having fans rush out and buy the thing as a collectible.

 

How about Apple just round up all the unique US mixes, shove them on an album on itunes and flog it for $9.99.

brian-epstein LOL.  Good idea.

"This Beatles talk bores me to death." --John Lennon

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