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Paul McCartneys "RAM" vs John Lennons "Imagine"
12 January 2013
7.09pm
tkj
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For some reason I always compare these two albums in my head, probably because of Paul and Johns rivalry at this point. Pauls "Too Many People" and Johns "How Do You Sleep?" etc. 

These are two very good albums, alot of great stuff on both. But, the winner imo is Pauls "RAM". I love all the songs on this album, except maybe the second half of "The Back Seat Of My Car" (The "Ohh we believe that we cant be long" part..) 
I also like almost every song on Johns album, but I find Pauls more creative. 

So which is the best?

  • Paul McCartney "RAM"(65% : 15 votes)
  • John Lennon "Imagine"(35% : 8 votes)
Total Voters: 23
12 January 2013
8.13pm
Funny Paper
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The "Ohh we believe we can't be wrongs" at the end of "Back Seat of My Car" are lifted into greatness by his screaming.  No other singer can quite do that.  Were some other singer to do that part, I'd agree it might be a grating or mediocre trope.

 

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...
12 January 2013
9.57pm
Long John Silver
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Hm.. not really sure but I like to put RAM as 2nd best Beatles solo output so yeah I guess it's a bit better, but POB is better than RAM IMO.

Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see.
12 January 2013
10.46pm
Into the Sky with Diamonds
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Imagine is a great album with one terrible flaw: "How Do You Sleep?" That's as mean-spirited a song as you'll ever find. I don't care how upset Lennon was, that song is the antithesis of "All You Need Is Love" and takes away whatever positive energy was delivered by "Imagine" (the song).

[By the way Ram would be spelled RAM if McCartney were referring to computer memory; but that's highly unlikely considering that home computers did not exist]

"Into the Sky with Diamonds" (the Beatles and the Race to the Moon – a history)
12 January 2013
11.20pm
Ron Nasty
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I love How Do You Sleep. Not the best song in the ex-Beatles song communication, that's probably Ringo's Early 1970. But for "Imagine" having How Do You Sleep, you cannot forget Lennon saw it as a response to Ram's Too Many People and Dear Boy. "You took your lucky break and broke it in two," how is that a better than anything John said in a song he later admitted was as much as himself as Paul. "It's me again." Give me "Imagine" every time.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
12 January 2013
11.47pm
meanmistermustard
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I want to love Ram but the whole album tires me, by the time Back Seat of my Car comes on i just want a rest and some quiet. The parts are better than the whole. Imagine has some clunkers namely I Dont Want To Be Soldier (too long and lazy ("fry", "fly", "die" "buy", "sigh", "tie" "try", "my", "cry", "lie" and the rest that rhyme (ok i made some up), Gimmie Some Truth and Oh Yoko (bettered by Dear Yoko) and im sick to death of Imagine after years of it being forced upon me.

Whats better? I'd go for Ram but i would need breaks when listening to it complete.

POB is infinitely superior to Imagine. Ram wouldnt be in my top 5 Macca albums.

Don’t make your love suffer insecurities, trade the baggage of self to set another one free. ('Paper Skin' - Kendall Payne)
12 January 2013
11.59pm
Ron Nasty
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Well, as Johnny said, Imagine is POB with some sugar sprinkled on it.

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
13 January 2013
12.10am
meanmistermustard
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mja6758 said
Well, as Johnny said, Imagine is POB with some sugar sprinkled on it.

 

Yeah and sugar is not always a great addition, too much and its difficult to keep digesting. Wasnt that a dig at Paul that quote ending something like for squares like you (or him)?

Don’t make your love suffer insecurities, trade the baggage of self to set another one free. ('Paper Skin' - Kendall Payne)
13 January 2013
12.14am
The Walrus
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Imagine, hands down.

Before I start, I don't bother criticising an artist unless I rate them and find their music listenable. The solo Beatles therefore get it in the neck a lot from me because I know they're capable of better (Lennon and McCartney are in my top 5 musicians), but their music is still fairly good. Most of the time, if I hear an unremarkable album I'll just forget about it, the fact that I've listened enough to give a reasonable criticism is in itself a good sign.

Ram has some good tunes, and some brilliant ones (Monkberry Moon Delight the obvious standout), but the lyrics are terrible, except for Too Many People and Dear Boy. There are some songs where that doesn't matter too much (Smile Away, Ram On, the Admiral Halsey bit of UA/AH, the aforementioned Monkberry Moon Delight), but then you've got Long Haired Lady ("love is looooooooong, love is looooooooooooong..." ad nauseum), 3 Legs (horse on hills, dogs here and there...), Heart of the Country (at least Ob-la-di Ob-la-da has a plot), Eat At Home (pretty much every line), and The Back Seat of My Car ("listen to her daddy's song, making love is wrong...", "we can make it to Mexico City"). I think this is probably the clearest case of Lennon/McCartney floundering when they work on their own, though there's strong competition from BOTR and W&B. Paul really needs someone to say to him, "actually, this bit isn't really up to scratch, use this that I've been working on".

Imagine has three straight up classics: Jealous Guy, Gimme Some Truth, and Imagine. Ram doesn't come close to pulling out a song as good as those (though MMD is the fourth best across both albums, comfortably). Jealous Guy has some great piano work and a really heartfelt lyric. Gimme Some Truth has so much attitude, and it is directed, unlike a lot of Lennon's later political songs. Imagine the song, no more needs to be said. I think Oh My Love is a lovely song, How? is another attempt at the same kind of song that doesn't work quite as well. I also like How Do You Sleep?, great guitar work from George and a really cutting lyric. There are a few duds though- It's So Hard is Tight A$ without the fun, and I Don't Want To Be A Soldier has very little to redeem it (I thought there was a line about working in a fish and chip shop but apparently not). I've deleted that song from my version of Imagine, which I haven't done with any songs from Ram, not even Long Haired Lady. The songs that illustrate the difference between the albums, for me, are Crippled Inside and Oh! Yoko. These are nice fun ditties. Yes the lyrics are a little bit silly at times, but they're uptempo, stripped down and fun. If they were on Ram, they'd be overblown, exaggerated, and the "best bits" would be repeated over and over in order to suck the fun out of them.

So yeah, Imagine. But All Things Must Pass is better than either a-hard-days-night-george-10

And I neeeeeeeeed her all the time
13 January 2013
12.23am
Into the Sky with Diamonds
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mja6758 said, "you cannot forget Lennon saw it as a response to Ram's Too Many People and Dear Boy. "You took your lucky break and broke it in two," how is that a better than anything John said in a song he later admitted was as much as himself as Paul."

I haven't forgotten.

But there's no comparison between the two. You could even add in the 'one beetle screwing another' on the back of Ram, and there's still no comparison.

"You took your lucky break ..." is a subtle dig that would have been picked up by Lennon but went right over the head of the fans (including this one). [I didn't realize until years (maybe decades) later that that was supposed to be a dig aimed at Lennon - it's really not obvious. What does "and you broke it in two mean"?]

And the bit about 'one beetle screwing another' is actually funny; nothing wrong with a subtle dig or some humor.

Lennon's song is direct and nasty and very clearly directed at McCartney - regardless of what Lennon said much later (obviously feeling sheepish, if you pardon the pun).

"Into the Sky with Diamonds" (the Beatles and the Race to the Moon – a history)
13 January 2013
12.36am
Ron Nasty
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meanmistermustard said

mja6758 said
Well, as Johnny said, Imagine is POB with some sugar sprinkled on it.

 

Yeah and sugar is not always a great addition, too much and its difficult to keep digesting. Wasnt that a dig at Paul that quote ending something like for squares like you (or him)?

But, as I'm sure John meant, quoting Mary Poppins, "A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down".

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
13 January 2013
12.42am
Ron Nasty
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Into the Sky with Diamonds said
mja6758 said, "you cannot forget Lennon saw it as a response to Ram's Too Many People and Dear Boy. "You took your lucky break and broke it in two," how is that a better than anything John said in a song he later admitted was as much as himself as Paul."

I haven't forgotten.

But there's no comparison between the two. You could even add in the 'one beetle screwing another' on the back of Ram, and there's still no comparison.

"You took your lucky break ..." is a subtle dig that would have been picked up by Lennon but went right over the head of the fans (including this one). [I didn't realize until years (maybe decades) later that that was supposed to be a dig aimed at Lennon - it's really not obvious. What does "and you broke it in two mean"?]

And the bit about 'one beetle screwing another' is actually funny; nothing wrong with a subtle dig or some humor.

Lennon's song is direct and nasty and very clearly directed at McCartney - regardless of what Lennon said much later (obviously feeling sheepish, if you pardon the pun).

The Beatles ended up in two camps. John, George and Ringo vs. Paul. And as we know the real split of The Beatles was not Paul's press release that went out with McCartney, but John saying months before, "I want a divorce".

"I only said we were bigger than Rod... and now there's all this!" Ron Nasty
13 January 2013
12.54am
Long John Silver
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The Walrus said
Imagine, hands down.

Before I start, I don't bother criticising an artist unless I rate them and find their music listenable. The solo Beatles therefore get it in the neck a lot from me because I know they're capable of better (Lennon and McCartney are in my top 5 musicians), but their music is still fairly good. Most of the time, if I hear an unremarkable album I'll just forget about it, the fact that I've listened enough to give a reasonable criticism is in itself a good sign.

Ram has some good tunes, and some brilliant ones (Monkberry Moon Delight the obvious standout), but the lyrics are terrible, except for Too Many People and Dear Boy. There are some songs where that doesn't matter too much (Smile Away, Ram On, the Admiral Halsey bit of UA/AH, the aforementioned Monkberry Moon Delight), but then you've got Long Haired Lady ("love is looooooooong, love is looooooooooooong..." ad nauseum), 3 Legs (horse on hills, dogs here and there...), Heart of the Country (at least Ob-la-di Ob-la-da has a plot), Eat At Home (pretty much every line), and The Back Seat of My Car ("listen to her daddy's song, making love is wrong...", "we can make it to Mexico City"). I think this is probably the clearest case of Lennon/McCartney floundering when they work on their own, though there's strong competition from BOTR and W&B. Paul really needs someone to say to him, "actually, this bit isn't really up to scratch, use this that I've been working on".

Imagine has three straight up classics: Jealous Guy, Gimme Some Truth, and Imagine. Ram doesn't come close to pulling out a song as good as those (though MMD is the fourth best across both albums, comfortably). Jealous Guy has some great piano work and a really heartfelt lyric. Gimme Some Truth has so much attitude, and it is directed, unlike a lot of Lennon's later political songs. Imagine the song, no more needs to be said. I think Oh My Love is a lovely song, How? is another attempt at the same kind of song that doesn't work quite as well. I also like How Do You Sleep?, great guitar work from George and a really cutting lyric. There are a few duds though- It's So Hard is Tight A$ without the fun, and I Don't Want To Be A Soldier has very little to redeem it (I thought there was a line about working in a fish and chip shop but apparently not). I've deleted that song from my version of Imagine, which I haven't done with any songs from Ram, not even Long Haired Lady. The songs that illustrate the difference between the albums, for me, are Crippled Inside and Oh! Yoko. These are nice fun ditties. Yes the lyrics are a little bit silly at times, but they're uptempo, stripped down and fun. If they were on Ram, they'd be overblown, exaggerated, and the "best bits" would be repeated over and over in order to suck the fun out of them.

So yeah, Imagine. But All Things Must Pass is better than either a-hard-days-night-george-10

Pretty good argument I must say, heck, it's a tie for me, both albums are classic and it's just so hard to decide, even though I said Ram, it all just depends on the mood I guess. It is similar with Beatles albums, one month White Album is favorite, and next one Revolver etc... but POB beats both of them :) .

Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see.
13 January 2013
3.50am
Funny Paper
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Walrus's meticulous demurrers and quibbles about Ram kind of puts me in mind, by way of analogy, of a finicky woman who has to attach all sorts of conditions and bells and whistles to sex, rather than just enjoy it on its own terms.

Ram is just a great variety of good music.

But then, I suppose I'm biased (back to the analogy, I had great sex with a hot babe -- several times -- and I'm not complaining)...ahdn_paul_06

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...
13 January 2013
8.08am
linkjws
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I listened to both albums today, and I have decided I like Ram more than Imagine.  Both have great songs, but neither are perfect albums.  Part of the problem is that I can't stand Phil Spector's "Wall Of Sound"...it can just ruin a song in my mind.  Also, I enjoy listening to Ram a little more between the two.

13 January 2013
8.17am
Gerard
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Since I am a Macca fan I'll go with RAM. RAM is filled with variety and it is riddled with Blues, it has Paul's style written all over it. 20 powerhouse tracks from the deluxe version album, it can't get any better than that.

Too Many People: Anthem

3 Legs: Bluesy catchy tune, cool guitar at the end

Ram On: simply catchy tune on a ukulele

Dear Boy: piano!

Uncle Albert/Admiral Halsey: Paul's version of Yellow Submarine (imo), creativity at it's best

Smile Away: smile away a-hard-days-night-paul-11

Heart of the Country: I love it when Paul sings like the guitar.

Monkberry Moon Delight: Fun piano song about food, awesome Paul vocals as usual. Paul's version of Savoy Truffle?

I can't describe all of the tracks though.

Special mentions:

Oh Woman Oh Why: Rocking out!

Backseat of my Car: my favourite track in the album

Hey Diddle: simple song like Junk

 

 

 

 

"And in the End the Love you take is equal to the Love you make"
"When I was a robber *Piano Chord* in Boston Place"
"Let's hope this turns out pretty darn good huh"
"Pete may be the best, but Ringo is the star"
Paul:"Don't be nervous John"
John:"I 'm not"
13 January 2013
12.38pm
meanmistermustard
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Into the Sky with Diamonds said
mja6758 said, "you cannot forget Lennon saw it as a response to Ram's Too Many People and Dear Boy. "You took your lucky break and broke it in two," how is that a better than anything John said in a song he later admitted was as much as himself as Paul."

I haven't forgotten.

But there's no comparison between the two. You could even add in the 'one beetle screwing another' on the back of Ram, and there's still no comparison.

"You took your lucky break ..." is a subtle dig that would have been picked up by Lennon but went right over the head of the fans (including this one). [I didn't realize until years (maybe decades) later that that was supposed to be a dig aimed at Lennon - it's really not obvious. What does "and you broke it in two mean"?]

And the bit about 'one beetle screwing another' is actually funny; nothing wrong with a subtle dig or some humor.

Lennon's song is direct and nasty and very clearly directed at McCartney - regardless of what Lennon said much later (obviously feeling sheepish, if you pardon the pun).

Paul was far cleverer, far cuter in getting his swipes. Whilst John would spit "youre an asshole, piss off" to someone, Paul would make a cutting remark or dig which would have just as much an affect. Its why their public fight in the press lasted as long as it did. John got what Paul was saying and doing.

Don’t make your love suffer insecurities, trade the baggage of self to set another one free. ('Paper Skin' - Kendall Payne)
13 January 2013
3.43pm
The Walrus
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Funny Paper said
Walrus's meticulous demurrers and quibbles about Ram kind of puts me in mind, by way of analogy, of a finicky woman who has to attach all sorts of conditions and bells and whistles to sex, rather than just enjoy it on its own terms.

Ram is just a great variety of good music.

But then, I suppose I'm biased (back to the analogy, I had great sex with a hot babe -- several times -- and I'm not complaining)...ahdn_paul_06

I have no idea about your analogy (could you tell from the rant? a-hard-days-night-george-9)

I can enjoy a song like Heart Of The Country or It's So Hard- I've kept them in my playlists, whereas I Don't Wanna Be A Soldier is gone. It's just Ram has a lot more of those songs than Imagine. I can enjoy Ram and appreciate it for what it is (a collection of great tunes, albeit with a few grating lyrics), whereas BOTR for example, I skip from Bluebird (and sometimes earlier than that) to Nineteen Hundred and Eighty-Five because there's very little to enjoy.

 

And I neeeeeeeeed her all the time
13 January 2013
6.10pm
Funny Paper
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What does "and you broke it in two mean"?]

Paul's blaming John for their "break-up"...?

And the bit about 'one beetle screwing another' is actually funny; nothing wrong with a subtle dig or some humor.

Lennon's song is direct and nasty and very clearly directed at McCartney – regardless of what Lennon said much later (obviously feeling sheepish, if you pardon the pun).

John's "How Do You Sleep" is a lot like John's politics -- artless. humorless, self-righteous, hypocritical, blunt as a bag rocks.

Faded flowers, wait in a jar, till the evening is complete... complete... complete... complete...
13 January 2013
7.13pm
tkj
The Cavern Club
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Funny Paper said
What does "and you broke it in two mean"?]

Paul's blaming John for their "break-up"...?

Yes.

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